Pacer vs Pacer

[DarloRich]

Lets be honest; Arguing about the best pacer is like arguing whether it is better to drown or be roasted to death. You are still dead............

And post of the year goes to DarloRich.

most kind

 

[507 001]

Lets be honest; Arguing about the best pacer is like arguing whether it is better to drown or be roasted to death. You are still dead...

Ironically, there's an equal chance of both when travelling on a Newton Heath maintained 142 in winter.

Leaky roof and a heater powered by nuclear fission!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

Ah yes. The Leyland National. Another example of UK's dynamic motor vehicle industry.

given that bus / coach building in the UK at the time was 'man in shed' level for bodywork, a 'ready to go' (semi integral) that could be driven off the production line, through the depot to get it's ticket machine and advertising applied and out to work ...

 

[Willr2094]

Essentially, the differences between the Pacer classes is as follows:

Class 141 BREL underframe, shortened Leyland National body built to standard road vehicle width. 2+2 bus seating, one set of passenger doors on each side of each vehicle, separate cab door for traincrew use only. Delivered to Neville Hill for use on Leeds - Harrogate - York, Leeds - Knaresborough via Harrogate but also Leeds - Doncaster, Leeds - Huddersfield and York - Sheffield. First two units delivered in a variant of BR Blue and Grey incorporating yellow passenger doors and Barrow Corporation blue paint rather than Rail Blue, remainder of fleet delivered in West Yorkshire PTE Verona Green and Cream bus livery. Fleet rebuilt in 1988 by Hunslet-Barclay to incorporate modernised braking system and updated couplings to make them compatible with the later Pacer classes. Highly unreliable, all withdrawn by 1998. Three preserved, including the unique 141113 (modified with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission in 1987), remainder largely scrapped.

Class 142 Essentially a revised Class 141 - incorporating a longer and wider Leyland National body. 3 sets of passenger doors on DMSL vehicles, 4 on DMS ones. Loss of separate train crew door means crew access is now via the first set of passenger doors on each side behind the cabs. Internally - 3+2 seating fitted to all units at build however majority now fitted with individual 2+2 high back seating in various styles with a few still retaining their original fixed bench seats. Driving cab revised, losing the raised Leyland National style driving position and Leyland National dashboard as fitted on Class 141, in favour of a completely conventional railway style dashboard. Delivered in three liveries; Greater Manchester PTE orange and brown, mock-GWR Chocolate and Cream (for a highly unsuccessful life on the Western Region in Devon and Cornwall), and standard BR Provincial two-tone blue and white livery. Entire fleet modified in the 1990s to incorporate a Cummins engine/Voith transmission to replace the original Leyland TL11 engine and Self-Changing Gears transmission, external doors modernised to incorporate the same rigid inward pivoting type used on Classes 143 and 144. Class largely still intact as of 2017, with two scrapped from accident damage - 142059 in 1991 after running away and hitting buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street after loss of brakes, 142008 after colliding with a Class 87 hauled West Coast Main Line express at Winsford in 1999.

Class 143 The only Pacer class not built in any way by BR - these incorporated a body supplied by Walter Alexander Coachbuilders of Falkirk, Scotland, mounted on underframes built by Hunslet-Barclay at Leeds. 3+2 seating fitted inside originally, since around 2000 fleet has run with 2+2 high back seating. Leyland TL11 engine and Self Changing Gears transmission fitted at build in 1985/6. Updated door system fitted from new - rigid inward pivoting doors fitted instead of the collapsible four section Deans type fitted on Classes 141 and 142. Originally delivered to Heaton depot in Newcastle for use on Saltburn - Bishop Auckland via Darlington and local services around Tyneside, Teesside and Wearside. Majority of fleet delivered in Provincial Services two-tone blue and white as per later class 142s, though final units of build delivered in Tyne/Wear PTE yellow/white bus livery of the time. Transferred away to the South West and Wales in the 1990s. Entire fleet modernised with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission shortly before transfer from the North East. Two sets, 143613 and 143615 withdrawn due to electrical fires and scrapped in 2005, remainder still in service.

Class 144 Variant of Class 143 featuring the same Alexander body but on the BREL Derby chassis used on Class 142. 3+2 seating fitted, trimmed in identical orange/brown/beige moquette as used on Class 143. Leyland TL11 engine and Self Changing Gears transmission fitted at build in 1986/7. Final 10 units of build extended in 1988 to run in three car form, with a distinctive centre coach with four doorways at each corner fitted between the two driving vehicles. Class delivered exclusively for West Yorkshire PTE and painted in the crimson/cream MetroTrain livery of the time. Introduced to supplement Class 141 on WYPTE local services. Fleet modernised with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission in the 1990s. Withdrawal of Class 141 sees this class almost completely take over all services formerly operated by Class 141, with the fleet becoming largely the standard type of rolling stock on Leeds - Harrogate - York services until 2007. Fleet modernised again between 2002 and 2004, receiving high-back airline style seating. Fleet painted in a third and final version of WYPTE livery, before being repainted in standard Northern Rail livery from 2008 onwards.Entire fleet still in service as of 2017.

 

[Parallel]

Class 143 The only Pacer class not built in any way by BR - these incorporated a body supplied by Walter Alexander Coachbuilders of Falkirk, Scotland, mounted on underframes built by Hunslet-Barclay at Leeds. 3+2 seating fitted inside originally, since around 2000 fleet has run with 2+2 high back seating. Change of door system - rigid inward pivoting doors fitted instead of the collapsible four section Deans type fitted on Classes 141 and 142. Originally delivered to Heaton depot in Newcastle for use on Saltburn - Bishop Auckland via Darlington and local services around Tyneside, Teesside and Wearside. Majority of fleet delivered in Provincial Services two-tone blue and white as per later class 142s, though final units of build delivered in Tyne/Wear PTE yellow/white bus livery of the time. Transferred away to the South West and Wales in the 1990s. Entire fleet modernised with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission shortly before transfer from the North East. One set, 143613, withdrawn from fire damage and scrapped in 2005, remainder still in service.

I believe 143615 also caught fire and was scrapped and was at Canton for some time. Was 143613 the one that caught fire near Nailsea and Backwell?

 

[Bevan Price]

How can you say that the leyland National bus design was successful? We had them in Plymouth for a short time and they were appalling, very badly built, unreliable and apt to collide with bus shelters as the weight distribution was all wrong.

The Leyland National Bus design was modified over the years. Some of the early ones had reliability problems, but later ones (with improved engines) were much more reliable and mostly quite good buses - some lasted for over 20 years, which is a good life for a bus..

 

[Willr2094]

I believe 143615 also caught fire and was scrapped and was at Canton for some time. Was 143613 the one that caught fire near Nailsea and Backwell?

I believe that 143613 was the unit which caught fire in 2004 near Nailsea and Backwell

 

[Helvellyn]

Just to add their were two batches of Class 142 ordered. 142001-142050 and the 142051-142096. The latter had Lot No.s higher than the Class 143 units. Shame they weren't ordered as a Batch 2 Class 143 or Class 144.

 

[GusB]

The Leyland National Bus design was modified over the years. Some of the early ones had reliability problems, but later ones (with improved engines) were much more reliable and mostly quite good buses - some lasted for over 20 years, which is a good life for a bus..

I don't wish to derail this particular thread, so I've started another:

http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154081

 

[grumpyoldman01]

Some details about the beginning of the Pacer story.

British Rail received three tenders for the supply of Pacers; from Metro-Cammell, Walter Alexander, and a BREL/Leyland National consortium; as all included the same design of underframe/traction package, as specified in BR's invitation to tender, the classes 142/143 should all be identical beneath the body.

Metro-Cammell offered two designs; one had the same narrow body of the class 141, the other was wide and had 3+2 seating. However, Met-Camm's offer was VERY expensive, and was immediately set to one side whilst the others were considered in much more depth.

Walter Alexander's offer was for a wide bodied vehicle; final assembly was to be undertaken by Hunslet-Barclay at Kilmarnock, with the latter responsible for manufacture of the underframe. Moreover, Alexander's offer provided the lowest per-set price, but there was a catch; they indicated that only 25 DMUs could be supplied within the timescale required by BR.

The BREL/Leyland National base offer was for narrow-bodied vehicles – in simple terms, a class 141 with a different door layout; different prices were provided for assorted batch sizes, and – if BR were to order all from BREL/Leyland National – a small number of sets (from memory, the final ten) could be wide bodied with 3+2 seating if so required by BR. As indicated in the preceding paragraph, BREL/Leyland National's unit price was higher than that tendered by Alexander; however, this bidder's tender structure meant that the total contract price would be lower if all Pacers were to be ordered from BREL/Leyland National rather then order 25 from Alexander and the balance from them.

This resulted in a permission being sought from the BRB Supply Committee to split the order between Alexander and BREL/Leyland National, provided that certain requirements were met by the latter; this was agreed by the committee, and the Chairman was duly empowered to verbally authorise contracts being awarded to both parties, following discussions with the two tenderers.

A day of meetings with both parties was carefully choreographed, with morning meetings being with Alexander and afternoon ones with BREL/Leyland National.

The morning meeting started with technical discussions between BR's engineers and Alexander (and Barclay); these were completed to the satisfaction of BR's engineers, and a coffee break took place. During it, the buyer who was managing the procurement exercise excused himself and went to meet with his senior manager and acquaint him with how the meeting had progressed; a three-way discussion them took place between them and the Chairman of the Supply Committee, and he authorised the buyer to return to the meeting and formally offer Alexander a contract for a minimum of 25 Pacers. Alexander were also to be asked if they could manufacture more than this quantity, and to let BR know the outcome ASAP.

In the afternoon, a further meeting took place between BR and the BREL/Leyland National consortium; some outstanding technical issues were resolved, and BR then advised the bidder that it was prepared to contract with them for a maximum no of sets, (this being the total quantity required less 25 as the total which Alexander could produce in the required timescale was still unknown at the time of the afternoon meeting), provided that all were wide bodied and that the unit price was that tendered by BREL/Leyland National for the whole batch. This requirement was subsequently agreed by the consortium.

This is why BR ended up with a mixture of suppliers for Pacers; and, of course, if Alexander had been able to supply all that were required by BR within its timescale, we wouldn't have had class 142s.

 

[matacaster]

Successful and Good are not synonyms unfortunately. Yorkshire Traction had them until around 2001 so they must've got something right!

Sorry off topic but

It is fair to point out that Yorkshire traction had what can only be euphemistically described as a heritage fleet, with few under 15 years old. The traffic commissioners found that they had around 350 buses, but only 180 would actually run (sometimes for quite limited periods before they failed). The ones that wouldn't run were Christmas trees. The traffic commissioner said their maintenance was appalling and they ended up having to be sold to one of the big boys who had a few bob to replace most of the fleet - can't remember who it was Stagecoach or First? They were appalled and it cost them a lot of money to virtually replace the fleet. They often failed in service and one I remember only managed 2 stops before it failed near depot, female bus driver scalded for investigating.

 

[Tempest3K]

Sorry off topic but

It is fair to point out that Yorkshire traction had what can only be euphemistically described as a heritage fleet, with few under 15 years old. The traffic commissioners found that they had around 350 buses, but only 180 would actually run (sometimes for quite limited periods before they failed). The ones that wouldn't run were Christmas trees. The traffic commissioner said their maintenance was appalling and they ended up having to be sold to one of the big boys who had a few bob to replace most of the fleet - can't remember who it was Stagecoach or First? They were appalled and it cost them a lot of money to virtually replace the fleet. They often failed in service and one I remember only managed 2 stops before it failed near depot, female bus driver scalded for investigating.

So basically the same as First York now then... I've seen pacers in better nick than some of their buses!

 

[sprinterguy]

Some details about the beginning of the Pacer story.

British Rail received three tenders for the supply of Pacers; from Metro-Cammell, Walter Alexander, and a BREL/Leyland National consortium; as all included the same design of underframe/traction package, as specified in BR's invitation to tender, the classes 142/143 should all be identical beneath the body.

Metro-Cammell offered two designs; one had the same narrow body of the class 141, the other was wide and had 3+2 seating. However, Met-Camm's offer was VERY expensive, and was immediately set to one side whilst the others were considered in much more depth.

Walter Alexander's offer was for a wide bodied vehicle; final assembly was to be undertaken by Hunslet-Barclay at Kilmarnock, with the latter responsible for manufacture of the underframe. Moreover, Alexander's offer provided the lowest per-set price, but there was a catch; they indicated that only 25 DMUs could be supplied within the timescale required by BR.

The BREL/Leyland National base offer was for narrow-bodied vehicles – in simple terms, a class 141 with a different door layout; different prices were provided for assorted batch sizes, and – if BR were to order all from BREL/Leyland National – a small number of sets (from memory, the final ten) could be wide bodied with 3+2 seating if so required by BR. As indicated in the preceding paragraph, BREL/Leyland National's unit price was higher than that tendered by Alexander; however, this bidder's tender structure meant that the total contract price would be lower if all Pacers were to be ordered from BREL/Leyland National rather then order 25 from Alexander and the balance from them.

This resulted in a permission being sought from the BRB Supply Committee to split the order between Alexander and BREL/Leyland National, provided that certain requirements were met by the latter; this was agreed by the committee, and the Chairman was duly empowered to verbally authorise contracts being awarded to both parties, following discussions with the two tenderers.

A day of meetings with both parties was carefully choreographed, with morning meetings being with Alexander and afternoon ones with BREL/Leyland National.

The morning meeting started with technical discussions between BR's engineers and Alexander (and Barclay); these were completed to the satisfaction of BR's engineers, and a coffee break took place. During it, the buyer who was managing the procurement exercise excused himself and went to meet with his senior manager and acquaint him with how the meeting had progressed; a three-way discussion them took place between them and the Chairman of the Supply Committee, and he authorised the buyer to return to the meeting and formally offer Alexander a contract for a minimum of 25 Pacers. Alexander were also to be asked if they could manufacture more than this quantity, and to let BR know the outcome ASAP.

In the afternoon, a further meeting took place between BR and the BREL/Leyland National consortium; some outstanding technical issues were resolved, and BR then advised the bidder that it was prepared to contract with them for a maximum no of sets, (this being the total quantity required less 25 as the total which Alexander could produce in the required timescale was still unknown at the time of the afternoon meeting), provided that all were wide bodied and that the unit price was that tendered by BREL/Leyland National for the whole batch. This requirement was subsequently agreed by the consortium.

This is why BR ended up with a mixture of suppliers for Pacers; and, of course, if Alexander had been able to supply all that were required by BR within its timescale, we wouldn't have had class 142s.

Many thanks for your insight. That's the most comprehensive explanation of why we ended up with the class 142/143 split that I've seen and I found it fascinating to learn what went on 'behind the scenes' at the time of procurement.

 

[anamyd]

Essentially, the differences between the Pacer classes is as follows:

Class 141 BREL underframe, shortened Leyland National body built to standard road vehicle width. 2+2 bus seating, one set of passenger doors on each side of each vehicle, separate cab door for traincrew use only. Delivered to Neville Hill for use on Leeds - Harrogate - York, Leeds - Knaresborough via Harrogate but also Leeds - Doncaster, Leeds - Huddersfield and York - Sheffield. First two units delivered in a variant of BR Blue and Grey incorporating yellow passenger doors and Barrow Corporation blue paint rather than Rail Blue, remainder of fleet delivered in West Yorkshire PTE Verona Green and Cream bus livery. Fleet rebuilt in 1988 by Hunslet-Barclay to incorporate modernised braking system and updated couplings to make them compatible with the later Pacer classes. Highly unreliable, all withdrawn by 1998. Three preserved, including the unique 141113 (modified with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission in 1987), remainder largely scrapped.

Class 142 Essentially a revised Class 141 - incorporating a longer and wider Leyland National body. 3 sets of passenger doors on DMSL vehicles, 4 on DMS ones. Loss of separate train crew door means crew access is now via the first set of passenger doors on each side behind the cabs. Internally - 3+2 seating fitted to all units at build however majority now fitted with individual 2+2 high back seating in various styles with a few still retaining their original fixed bench seats. Driving cab revised, losing the raised Leyland National style driving position and Leyland National dashboard as fitted on Class 141, in favour of a completely conventional railway style dashboard. Delivered in three liveries; Greater Manchester PTE orange and brown, mock-GWR Chocolate and Cream (for a highly unsuccessful life on the Western Region in Devon and Cornwall), and standard BR Provincial two-tone blue and white livery. Entire fleet modified in the 1990s to incorporate a Cummins engine/Voith transmission to replace the original Leyland TL11 engine and Self-Changing Gears transmission, external doors modernised to incorporate the same rigid inward pivoting type used on Classes 143 and 144. Class largely still intact as of 2017, with two scrapped from accident damage - 142059 in 1991 after running away and hitting buffer stops at Liverpool Lime Street after loss of brakes, 142008 after colliding with a Class 87 hauled West Coast Main Line express at Winsford in 1999.

Class 143 The only Pacer class not built in any way by BR - these incorporated a body supplied by Walter Alexander Coachbuilders of Falkirk, Scotland, mounted on underframes built by Hunslet-Barclay at Leeds. 3+2 seating fitted inside originally, since around 2000 fleet has run with 2+2 high back seating. Leyland TL11 engine and Self Changing Gears transmission fitted at build in 1985/6. Updated door system fitted from new - rigid inward pivoting doors fitted instead of the collapsible four section Deans type fitted on Classes 141 and 142. Originally delivered to Heaton depot in Newcastle for use on Saltburn - Bishop Auckland via Darlington and local services around Tyneside, Teesside and Wearside. Majority of fleet delivered in Provincial Services two-tone blue and white as per later class 142s, though final units of build delivered in Tyne/Wear PTE yellow/white bus livery of the time. Transferred away to the South West and Wales in the 1990s. Entire fleet modernised with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission shortly before transfer from the North East. Two sets, 143613 and 143615 withdrawn due to electrical fires and scrapped in 2005, remainder still in service.

Class 144 Variant of Class 143 featuring the same Alexander body but on the BREL Derby chassis used on Class 142. 3+2 seating fitted, trimmed in identical orange/brown/beige moquette as used on Class 143. Leyland TL11 engine and Self Changing Gears transmission fitted at build in 1986/7. Final 10 units of build extended in 1988 to run in three car form, with a distinctive centre coach with four doorways at each corner fitted between the two driving vehicles. Class delivered exclusively for West Yorkshire PTE and painted in the crimson/cream MetroTrain livery of the time. Introduced to supplement Class 141 on WYPTE local services. Fleet modernised with a Cummins engine and Voith transmission in the 1990s. Withdrawal of Class 141 sees this class almost completely take over all services formerly operated by Class 141, with the fleet becoming largely the standard type of rolling stock on Leeds - Harrogate - York services until 2007. Fleet modernised again between 2002 and 2004, receiving high-back airline style seating. Fleet painted in a third and final version of WYPTE livery, before being repainted in standard Northern Rail livery from 2008 onwards.Entire fleet still in service as of 2017.

142-073 was withdrawn in July 2018 and stripped for parts.

 

[whhistle]

I’ve always wondered what the difference is between a 142 and a 143?
144s are clearly a different class (get it) if Pacers but what’s the difference between the former two?

Thanks in advance

Err... I'm surprised you chose the 142 and 143.
From pure looks, the 143 and 144 look "the same", where as a 142 looks quite different from the front.

 

[matacaster]

Err... I'm surprised you chose the 142 and 143.
From pure looks, the 143 and 144 look "the same", where as a 142 looks quite different from the front.

142's are the worst of the bunch with poor quality internal fitout and somewhat unreliable heating (excepting the execrable 141's which even the Iranians realised were pants)

 

[krus_aragon]

142's are the worst of the bunch with poor quality internal fitout and somewhat unreliable heating (excepting the execrable 141's which even the Iranians realised were pants)

In South Wales, the 142s and 143s' internal fitout look identical to the traveller. The obvious differences are on the front of the train.

 

[VioletEclipse]

142's are the worst of the bunch with poor quality internal fitout and somewhat unreliable heating (excepting the execrable 141's which even the Iranians realised were pants)

I've often been amused how one class of Pacer (141) was sold, then scrapped ages ago, while the other three classes (142-144) are still in service in 2019.

 

[anamyd]

I've often been amused how one class of Pacer (141) was sold, then scrapped ages ago, while the other three classes (142-144) are still in service in 2019.

Classes 142/143/144 are wider bodied than Class 141 so I think they were considered less obsolete, also, with the exception of 141-113 (Midland Railway's Pacer), the 141s didn't get the significant life extending Cummins/Voith mechanical upgrade that Classes 142/143/144 did - the Colne Valley Railway only just recently listed 141-108 for sale for £30,000 including VAT, which was still in service in 2018 with Leyland/SCG, but the listing said both engines and one gearbox good, one gearbox defective! Along with the two 141s, the Class 140 unit (140-001) is in private / heritage ownership, still with Leyland/SCG.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

142-073 was withdrawn in July 2018 and stripped for parts.

is that why i have seen it in wales then?

 

[Darandio]

is that why i have seen it in wales then?

Indeed, it wears advertising vinyls.

 

[PHILIPE]

142-073 was withdrawn in July 2018 and stripped for parts.

It was resurrected and now performing OK

 

[IamTrainsYT]

only 4 pacers have been scrapped, 2 142s and 2 143s

 

[IamTrainsYT]

It was resurrected and now performing OK

ah ok then

 

[anamyd]

It was resurrected and now performing OK

I know, unfortunately I had forgotten to come back to this thread to correct that

 

[507021]

is that why i have seen it in wales then?

I'm sorry, but is there any need to post such a rude comment?

 

[Neptune]

The easiest way to tell the difference between 143 & 144’s (apart from livery etc) is that the battery boxes are under the cab on the 143 and are at the gangway end on a 144. Also the loo is the opposite way around between the two with the sink on the left wall as you enter a 144 loo and the right wall as you enter the 143 loo. The cab interiors have differences as well with a flatter desk on a 143 and the much more angled desk on a 144 (with the speedo, etc at a better angle).

Effectively a 144 is a 142 with a different body and a 143 is a 144 with a different underframe.

Incidentally. The 141 cab was by far the largest and comfiest of all pacers. Still miss working them.

 

[Train jaune]

Rather than garden sheds and scout huts can we have two Pacers smashing into each other at max speed! ( Just like the thing with nuclear flasks a good few years ago)

 

[Neptune]

Rather than garden sheds and scout huts can we have two Pacers smashing into each other at max speed! ( Just like the thing with nuclear flasks a good few years ago)

As someone who has been directly involved in a train collision in the past I don’t think that’s in particularly good taste.

 

[Chris217]

Rather than garden sheds and scout huts can we have two Pacers smashing into each other at max speed! ( Just like the thing with nuclear flasks a good few years ago)

Wasnt good for the Peak either!