Passengers boarding train prior to display on screens

[bramling]

At another station, the general opinion is leave them to it, and if there's a set swap, that is their punishment - seeing a train full of passengers out the window sailing away wondering whey their own train is so quiet. Funny when one of them was kicking off at the staff after relying on (old) RealTimeTrains data which subsequently changed.

Must admit I did once very nearly end up on a non-stop Cambridge at King’s Cross exactly because of a set swap. However I’d say this would have been a price worth paying as a trade-off for many hundreds of pleasant experiences boarding trains early at King’s Cross in 365 (and 317) days.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There will be full lighting unless it's been left a very long time without the engine off

There won't. Stop the engine and it drops to emergency, 4 tubes per coach I think.

 

[bramling]

Why is it not relevant? Why would one TOC make a safety case one way and another TOC another way? Is the other TOC "unsafe" or taking risks?

This isn't in the Rule Book, as we have ascertained, but rather is a policy decided TOC by TOC, and the different approaches don't really make much sense.

And, as well as not always making sense, this also created aggravation when a passenger is - quite reasonably - used to how things are done in one place, and then gets balked at when through no fault of their own they find things are done differently somewhere else. Blackpool North and Skegness are examples of this, the first of those in particular being a particularly extreme one.

For example, when the Bedford-Bletchley line was operated by Sprinters it seems to have been common practice for the units to be left open whilst unattended at Bletchley. I was even invited to remain on the train during a particularly long layover with the response “of course we leave it open, you don’t want to wait in the rain, do you?”. Yet the same situation with an essentially identical 150 on something like Northern would pretty much always be left closed up, and if you happened to be on board whilst the train is being closed up there’s a fair chance you’d be spoken to brusquely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Up to the time of my retirement from Northern - just over ten years ago - it was a security requirement (I believe stipulated by the Home Office) that trains left unattended in platforms had to be left closed and locked until the arrival of the next train crew. Not sure whether this is still the case though.

It's practice at Euston but at Marylebone they're often left open.

 

[12LDA28C]

Why is it not relevant? Why would one TOC make a safety case one way and another TOC another way? Is the other TOC "unsafe" or taking risks?

This isn't in the Rule Book, as we have ascertained, but rather is a policy decided TOC by TOC, and the different approaches don't really make much sense.

Because different companies have different safety cases. This is not British Rail any more. There will be different approaches born out of previous incidents, experience and so on.

It's practice at Euston but at Marylebone they're often left open.

Not always. Certainly not if another unit is due to arrive and depart ahead of one already stabled for example.

 

[Peter0124]

Cameras on the train do not always prevent vandalism. Not all cameras on older stock can be viewed live remotely so do not act as a deterrent. Not sure why you would want to sit on a train for 50 minutes before departure... certainly at a station like Marylebone a train wouldn't sit there for that long anyway due to the nature of operations there.

I was talking about Glasgow Central where some sets (particularly the Newtons) sit in the same platform for up to an hour or two.

And Id rather board the train early and get work done on my laptop than sit around in the busy station, hence why I used boarding 50 minutes early as an example (an extreme one though).

 

[Stampy]

I can remember catching the 1719 service from Barrow-in-Furness back to Lancaster in May 2022.

Got onto the Platform concerned at 1710, and when were the doors unlocked (even though BOTH guard & driver were on the train)???

Slap bang on 1719.

And as the throngs of people (after a football match there) were climbing onto the train, the guard was asking people over the Tannoy to "hurry up and get into the train to ensure a prompt departure"

Departed at just after 1725, and only JUST made my connection at Lancaster.

 

[bahnause]

It's practice at Euston but at Marylebone they're often left open.

We used to have a notice in our shift plan if we has to lock the doors on a unit. I think I've seen it twice in around 15 years.

Our normal procedure i to leave the train open and unmanned at the platform. The PIS will activate the displays 20 minutes before departure (most trains don't spend more time at a platform anyway). That works with units being coupled and uncoupled during this time, as every single unit knows its timetable for the whole day.

 

[Krokodil]

There won't. Stop the engine and it drops to emergency, 4 tubes per coach I think.

So not "pitch black" then?

 

[MikeWM]

In the latter example, the doors on both units would be surely be closed beforehand? At King’s Cross this was how it was done, with a suitable announcement being made beforehand that the doors would be closed and then re-opened shortly afterwards, and normally asking people to remain seated. Worked quite happily there, with the 365s being very similar to Chiltern’s 165s.

And indeed at Cambridge, where it was standard to have a 4-car or 8-car 365 waiting in the platform (almost always available for passengers to board) and another 4-car 365 arriving from Kings Lynn and coupling to it. Train arrived, opened doors, announcement, closed doors, coupled to other train, opened doors again, closed doors again, proceeded. Worked perfectly well for many years.

The procedure appears to be the same now with 387s, though with 8-carriage trains to Kings Lynn there is much less attaching/detaching going on at Cambridge. Those that still do seem to follow the same pattern.

It's much more pleasant than keeping people off the train that is sitting right there until a couple of minutes before departure.

 

[RPM]

So not "pitch black" then?

As at least two people have now pointed out, it depends on the status of the batteries on a 165. Going pitch black on or after the engine shut down is very common.

 

[skyhigh]

A lot of policy is also put in place because of passengers. All it takes now days is for someone to complain about the slightest thing and policy often gets changed to reflect passenger demands.or passenger incidents.

Doesn't affect Chiltern but on 15x stock there can be issues if the train is left open for a long period without the engines running. When the air starts leaking out bits such as doors behave oddly - they might not open or close fully. Potentially this could cause an incident - i.e. if a passenger pressed the door close button but there's not enough air, nothing will happen. But when the driver starts the engines up, the door will then close without warning as soon as enough air is supplied, potentially trapping a passenger. On 150s there are normally no physical door locks so if the air is gone doors (including those on the non-platform side) are no longer secured shut.

Issues with the above are partly why certain TOCs require units to be locked when unattended.

I can remember catching the 1719 service from Barrow-in-Furness back to Lancaster in May 2022.

Got onto the Platform concerned at 1710, and when were the doors unlocked (even though BOTH guard & driver were on the train)???

Slap bang on 1719.

And as the throngs of people (after a football match there) were climbing onto the train, the guard was asking people over the Tannoy to "hurry up and get into the train to ensure a prompt departure"

Departed at just after 1725, and only JUST made my connection at Lancaster.

If it was simply the case that the crew couldn't be bothered to open the train until departure time then that is unacceptable. But at the same time there are several good reasons why the doors may be unable to be opened, potentially due to a fault.

 

[ATW Alex 101]

This reminds me of Euston. Waitinf for one’s train to appear on the board then as soon as it’s announced, a tidal wave and scrum.

I used to bypass this by searching for my train on opentraintimes or similar and waiting patiently on the platform. I was more often than not catching the Chester train, which was always a Voyager and usually departing from platform 18.

Quite a few times I was questioned as to my presence on the platform, to be subsequently told “it’s not been announced yet”. I usually ignored them and stayed put, never had a problem.

Part of the reason for doing so was to avoid the gateline gestapo they used to set up. It’s been a while since I’ve travelled into Euston but I should imagine not much has changed in this respect.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So not "pitch black" then?

No.

 

[RPM]

No.

There's no use for actual knowledge and expertise here is there?

 

[bramling]

There's no use for actual knowledge and expertise here is there?

Surely “pitch black” implies being in something like a tunnel with zero illumination of any sort? A train sitting in a terminus especially in an urban setting is never going to be reaching anything like that level even with no functioning lighting at all.

If that is deemed dangerous then the rolling stock should be modified, which with modern LEDs ought to be highly practicable.

 

[12LDA28C]

No.

As has been pointed out several times, quite possibly yes. No lights at all. Pretty dark at the country end of Marylebone say at the far end of Platform 6.

Surely “pitch black” implies being in something like a tunnel with zero illumination of any sort? A train sitting in a terminus especially in an urban setting is never going to be reaching anything like that level even with no functioning lighting at all.

If that is deemed dangerous then the rolling stock should be modified, which with modern LEDs ought to be highly practicable.

Do you have direct experience of boarding a train at Marylebone at the country end of the station after the engines have shut down and the train is in darkness? If not, I'd suggest you are not in a position to comment how dark said train would be.

What kind of modification would prevent the lights switching off due to the condition of the batteries?

Or maybe a solution would be to not allow passengers to board until the engines have been started and interior lights switched on...

 

[Krokodil]

What kind of modification would prevent the lights switching off due to the condition of the batteries?

If the batteries are in such a condition that there would be no emergency lighting in the event of an accident or breakdown then surely that's a safety issue.

Of the 158s that had low energy mods done in order to permit the fitting of ETCS equipment, it's incredibly rare for a total loss of lighting to happen. Or perhaps Machynlleth just maintain their batteries properly.

 

[CyrusWuff]

As at least two people have now pointed out, it depends on the status of the batteries on a 165. Going pitch black on or after the engine shut down is very common.

As is losing the tail lights, of course. Though it would be hoped the errant unit would be restarted prior to the arrival of a subsequent arrival into the same platform!

 

[bramling]

Do you have direct experience of boarding a train at Marylebone at the country end of the station after the engines have shut down and the train is in darkness? If not, I'd suggest you are not in a position to comment how dark said train would be.

No. I do, however, have quite a bit of experience of being on trains with no lighting in other locations, including at locations rather more secluded than Marylebone. In any case, if we are saying that levels of ambient light there are so bad, surely it would be possible for the platform lighting to be uprated?

What kind of modification would prevent the lights switching off due to the condition of the batteries?

In the first instance, maintaining or replacing batteries better? Finding the root cause of why the batteries are degrading so quickly in the first place? Fitting dedicated batteries that simply supply a minimum level of emergency lighting? A shore supply arrangement? To be honest it’s pretty undesirable for carriages to be being plunged into so-called “pitch black” potentially as soon as an engine stops. What would happen if an engine stopped on a train detained anywhere in the darkness, or even worse in a tunnel?

Or maybe a solution would be to not allow passengers to board until the engines have been started and interior lights switched on...

Yes, that’s a solution. However it’s also one which is clearly pissing off the end user, so it certainly isn’t an optimal one, or even a good one. If this is the best Chiltern’s management can do then maybe they’re also sub-optimal.

But then I’ve always found Chiltern to be like this - they’ve always been very good at giving it the “holier than thou”, but the experience on the ground doesn’t always match the hype. Quite often dirty and rattling trains with broken interior fixtures, a focus on end to end journeys and seemingly little care for many intermediate destinations, and their best speciality of all which is 2-car trains on busy services. Hence I’d always pick West Coast for London to Birmingham journeys.

 

[12LDA28C]

Yes, that’s a solution. However it’s also one which is clearly pissing off the end user, so it certainly isn’t an optimal one, or even a good one.

It seems to have pissed off one end user who is complaining on this forum. There may be others, there may not.

and their best speciality of all which is 2-car trains on busy services. Hence I’d always pick West Coast for London to Birmingham journeys.

They are currently extremely short on fleet availability as has been highlighted in various threads on this forum, mainly due to issues with obtaining parts for 30+ year-old trains with obsolete electronics. Hardly Chiltern's fault that they haven't got shiny new trains like other operators.

 

[Mojo]

Up to the time of my retirement from Northern - just over ten years ago - it was a security requirement (I believe stipulated by the Home Office) that trains left unattended in platforms had to be left closed and locked until the arrival of the next train crew. Not sure whether this is still the case though.

That sounds like one of those mess room rumours rather than anything based upon fact. Certainly if that was a rule then it would be applied across the network and not only at certain locations.

 

[dk1]

When I covered train announcing duties back in the 90s I could get quite annoyed when passengers started wandering up platforms whilst intercity trains were being cleaned & prepared for their return journey. I’d make the large NOT IN SERVICE on the monitors flash to be more noticeable. If anyone started wandering up I’d announce them to return to the concourse then advising others to “pay attention to display screens”. Oh how the power went to my head haha.

 

[cactustwirly]

As has been pointed out several times, quite possibly yes. No lights at all. Pretty dark at the country end of Marylebone say at the far end of Platform 6.



Do you have direct experience of boarding a train at Marylebone at the country end of the station after the engines have shut down and the train is in darkness? If not, I'd suggest you are not in a position to comment how dark said train would be.

What kind of modification would prevent the lights switching off due to the condition of the batteries?

Or maybe a solution would be to not allow passengers to board until the engines have been started and interior lights switched on...

GWR and FGW used to leave 165s with the engines off at Paddington and Reading, the doors were left open for passengers to board. I don't remember any of those trains being pitch black!
During the shoulder peaks they would bring extra trains out from the depot to couple to services from Oxford etc, and this was done with passengers onboard

 

[GordonT]

Apart from occasional legitimate technical or safety circumstances impeding doors being left unlocked, the comments above would suggest that much depends on where a TOC's culture lies on the spectrum from Jobsworthy to Delighting the Customer.
Possibly with the occasional very localised exception such as Blackpool North where a particular staffing ethos has historically prevailed as a consequence of a higher than usual percentage of "nutters" within the passing through paying public.

 

[bramling]

They are currently extremely short on fleet availability as has been highlighted in various threads on this forum, mainly due to issues with obtaining parts for 30+ year-old trains with obsolete electronics. Hardly Chiltern's fault that they haven't got shiny new trains like other operators.

Been going on for years with Chiltern. All their investment over the years comes to nought if one turns up at Marylebone or Birmingham to find a 2-car train, which has been my experience one too many times.

 

[12LDA28C]

Been going on for years with Chiltern. All their investment over the years comes to nought if one turns up at Marylebone or Birmingham to find a 2-car train, which has been my experience one too many times.

Indeed. Fortunately things seem to be changing now that the DfT has finally given permission for Chiltern to put out a tender for new trains.

GWR and FGW used to leave 165s with the engines off at Paddington and Reading, the doors were left open for passengers to board. I don't remember any of those trains being pitch black!
During the shoulder peaks they would bring extra trains out from the depot to couple to services from Oxford etc, and this was done with passengers onboard

Again, just because it used to happen at Paddington with another operator, doesn't mean all other TOCs follow the same process.

Apart from occasional legitimate technical or safety circumstances impeding doors being left unlocked, the comments above would suggest that much depends on where a TOC's culture lies on the spectrum from Jobsworthy to Delighting the Customer.
Possibly with the occasional very localised exception such as Blackpool North where a particular staffing ethos has historically prevailed as a consequence of a higher than usual percentage of "nutters" within the passing through paying public.

Rubbish. Unless any of the above commentors have in-depth knowledge of Chiltern's safety case, method of working statements and Marylebone station operations, they have no way of knowing the reasons why things are done in a particular way. Again, it's rather unlikely that Chiltern would deliberately undertake actions to make things more difficult for customers without very good reason.

 

[Adam Williams]

It seems to have pissed off one end user who is complaining on this forum. There may be others, there may not.

From what was muttered at the time, I'd be pretty confident in saying that everyone on the train who was asked to leave for no reason, and then subsequently made aware that boarding was "suddenly okay" within the space of about 60 seconds was pissed off at the pettiness of it!

---

Chiltern managed to advertise the train I boarded today within a few minutes of the fairly busy inbound service arriving at Marylebone - in fact before it was even fully prepared. I was given no hassle for waiting after the gateline. Myself and a bunch of other passengers were able to board without fuss as early as 25 minutes before departure, and the cleaning staff boarded without incident to do some further touch-up cleaning without any drama whilst I was sat at a table and able to crack on with some work.

I didn't expect a better passenger experience on a strike day, but that's what was delivered.

 

[12LDA28C]

From what was muttered at the time, I'd be pretty confident in saying that everyone on the train who was asked to leave for no reason, and then subsequently made aware that boarding was "suddenly okay" within the space of about 60 seconds was pissed off at the pettiness of it!

Unless you work for Chiltern, I suggest it's your interpretation that you were asked to leave the train 'for no reason'. The truth is that you don't know or weren't told of the reason why you had to disembark which is rather different for there being 'no reason'.

 

[Adam Williams]

Unless you work for Chiltern, I suggest it's your interpretation that you were asked to leave the train 'for no reason'. The truth is that you don't know or weren't told of the reason why you had to disembark which is rather different for there being 'no reason'.

I have a fairly good idea of the reason we were asked to leave, and it has nothing to do with safety and everything to do with the member of staff.

Please do enlighten me if you think there's a real reason that will hold up to scrutiny, though.

In any case, I would put it to you that delivering a good passenger experience includes explaining actions to paying customers when they appear completely nonsensical too, which did not happen.