Passengers forcing their way off stranded trains

[Pyreneenguy]

I can understand why people may WANT to leave the train, but not why they do.

Well, even that's a step in the right direction !

 

[Nonsense]

Time for the professionals to bale out and leave the trolls to amuse themselves until mother comes home and makes them switch off the Computer, I think Chap.

A failing of text based communication. I can't quite tell if this irony or ironic.

 

[EM2]

I wonder if the guard and driver on that train had access to an open window while they protected their cargo.

That train had windows open all along its length.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Well, even that's a step in the right direction !

I don't think I've every stated otherwise. It's still a stupid, dangerous and selfish thing to do, and one which I will not support, and will hope that they get prosecuted.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Two hours stuck on a train is the railways failure and its unreasonable to expect anyone to tolerate it. If the train can't be rescued then the situation should be alleviated by some other means. I wonder if the guard and driver on that train had access to an open window while they protected their cargo.

As they say, rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of the wise. Its the fool that would be denied their freedom by a door, not the wise.

Would you apply the same logic if your train was involved in a fatality? Or a car crashing onto the line? Not everything is the railways fault.

 

[ralphchadkirk]

I would suggest a case of an over-inflated ego, but who am I to judge, after-all, I'm only a rail-enthusiast !

It's nothing to do with egos. It is an accepted industry standard that off duty railway staff will make themselves known to the duty staff so they can be found quickly in case of an accident. I imagine such practices aren't adopted in driving desks, so that maybe why you do not understand it.

 

[Nonsense]

Would you apply the same logic if your train was involved in a fatality? Or a car crashing onto the line? Not everything is the railways fault.

Yes!

A fatality or car on the line does not stop the railway de-training the passengers.

 

[Captain Chaos]

A failing of text based communication. I can't quite tell if this irony or ironic.

Bit ironic that you are pointing to failings in posts when you can't seem to construct a sentence properly.

 

[EM2]

Yes!

A fatality or car on the line does not stop the railway de-training the passengers.

A fatality does, as the area is under the control of the BTP and treated as a crime scene in the first instance, until they have conducted their initial investigations, any casualties or remains are removed and they hand the scene back to NR's control

 

[O L Leigh]

Likewise there are likely to still be bits of person around and about where the train is standing.

O L Leigh

 

[GB]

...and even when the BTP hand back the line to NR, passengers will NOT be evacuated if the body or body parts could be seen by them.

 

[nedchester]

I got out of a delayed train as well. I was travelling from Newcastle to Carlisle for an interview back in 1985. Train was stopped near Haltwhistle due to an 'incident'. Train was next to the A69. Ask the guard if I could get off. He says yes and I walked down the track to the road and over the fence. Thumbed a lift to Carlisle and made the interview on time!!

Didn't get the job though!!

 

[Captain Chaos]

Yes!

A fatality or car on the line does not stop the railway de-training the passengers.

I think you will find a fatality does. It becomes a crime scene and no-one is allowed to leave until the police have done their work. People de-training could destroy any evidence. All fatalities are treated as suspicious deaths until investigation of the scene concludes otherwise.

 

[EM2]

nedchester - in that instance, you have been given express directions by an identified member of staff. Therefore you have not forcibly exited.

 

[Nonsense]

Bit ironic that you are pointing to failings in posts when you can't seem to construct a sentence properly.

No. You can call it a colloquialism if you like, but it was the sentiment, not the sentence that I was commenting on.

And I do realise I just ended a sentence with a preposition, and started this one with"And", but I'm not Winston.

 

[313103]

We have been on about this train being stuck for 2 hours on South Eastern like their is no tomorrow, however what i would like to know Did the train have a Guard on in the first place? I thought all South Easterns local services were of the DOO kind and that Guards are only used outside the London area on coastal routes or those on the longer services. I thought all services that are 465 (i think that is the class used) are DOO.

The reason why i ask this is that all through this and on the other thread regarding South Eastern reference is made about a Guard doing this and doing that or as alluded to a few not doing this and not doing that.

 

[T163R]

Well it depends on the area !

 

[Captain Chaos]

In the event of a fatality, get off quick before the BTP turn up and declare a crime scene.

Would you be happy to do this then if it turns out that the police have deemed it to be murder and a piece of vital evidence has been destroyed because you have evacuated yourself and destroyed or contaminated it?

This is probably the most stupidest piece of advice I have ever read in my life.

 

[nedchester]

nedchester - in that instance, you have been given express directions by an identified member of staff. Therefore you have not forcibly exited.

True but I bet a conductor would get a severe bollocking / sacked nowadays for such a charitable act?!

 

[Captain Chaos]

Or rather those with proper responsibilites when they get home like picking up the kids rather than sitting for hours on a train, rather than those who just have to be back for dinner.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Don't care. Not my problem.

Tell that to the family of the victim then.

 

[scotsman]

Tell that to the family of the victim then.

Indeed, the body can't be released until the case has been closed - very hard when the vital evidence has been destroyed. Futhermore, interfering with a crime scene or destroying evidence, even when accidental, is a very serious crime

 

[michael769]

I think you have misread or misunderstood.
Speaking to train crew on a regular basis can take a considerable amount of time.

I don't dispute that

If for example we say that information to the effect that nothing has changed takes 3 minutes from start to finish of call,

That is exactly the kind of message that should never be given. If nothing has changed in 1 hour then nothing is being done to get things moving. Surely after an hour something would have changed even if it is the technicians arriving onsite to asses the problem, or in a very remote location a revised ETA for the arrival of the technicians.

then that gives a potential base of speaking with 20 trains per hour. Of course some calls will take longer and there may be delays in getting response from others, so lets say that a workable arrangement of 15 calls per hour.

Why so complicated? Is the system not capable to broadcasting messages to all trains in the affected area? Why not get the train crew to relay messages. I was stuck on a train a year or so ago, waiting for a delayed train to come down a single track section. In the 20 mins we waited the guard was in contact with the guard of the oncoming train who was updating us with that trains progress. Whilst I could do without the wait, hearing news of it leaving the various stations gave me an insight into what was going on and left me able to see then end was in sight.

It made the wait considerably less stressful the the sullen silence that passengers typically experience after the first vague announcement.

That means one person doing nothing but simply calling train crews every hour. If the cycle is to be repeated every 20 or 30 minutes then I am sure you can do the maths yourself. More trains will obviously alter that fact.

So you may need more staff to handle things, in serious disruptions it seems to me there will be staff who do not have the skills to help with clearing the disruption who will be unable to get on with their normal jobs, such as crews unable to leave stations. Of course the availability of such resource will vary from incident to incident, which means that flexibility and sometime lateral thinking will be needed to put things in place, but I am sure there are enough smart people out there to make it work (if only they were allowed to).

During this time of course nobody can contact the person making the calls and the telephone line will be continually in use.


As you would probably consider 60 minutes to be too long between calls, you will now have doubled the manpower and the telephone lines. During this period these staff are doing nothing else.

Of course the whole point is that they devote their time to the #2 top priority after getting the network moving - the safety and comfort of the passengers If that means I cannot buy a ticket via telesales - or have to listen to a recorded message telling me nothing is moving and to make alternate travel arrangements - then that is a price I am happy to pay not being trapped inside an overheating greenhouse.

so tell me at what point DOES it become apparent ? What are your criteria ?

At the point where the persons who have full access to all the available information make the decision that it is apparent. There is no one true answer to this, the decision needs to be devolved to the skill and judgement of the people dealing with the incident, who should be encouraged and empowered to make the call based on their individual assessment of the incident in question.

No-one minds questions, what we have here however are a number of individuals who because they don’t like the response to those questions launch into criticism and try to browbeat and second-guess those who provide the answers.

Thank you for taking the time to answer my suggestions, they are quite helpful. Unfortunately from my reading of this thread you are in a minority of 1, which is probably why we have felt the need to push so hard to get answers like this, rather than the judgemental "it's against the rules/policy/law" responses, that seem to be the prevalent response to this issue from the industry.

Just because some of us feel it is appropriate to push harder on this issue, does not mean we are not taking constructive responses like your into account.

In any case I wonder how many are true taxpayers ? That rules out some I guess.

FWIW - I am a top rate income tax payer, but setting that aside; thanks to VAT, everyone pays taxes (OK well folks too young to have bought a sweet with their own pocket money have probably never paid tax, but I'd like to find anyone old enough to buy their own clothes who has not paid VAT)

Next time you get a power cut at home, ring and demand a restoration time from the Electricity company and see what you are told.

The last time I had a cut I called the company to see if they were aware of the problem. The confirmed they were said that they locus of the fault was identified and that technicians were expected onsite within 30 mins. They advised that if power was not restored within 1 hour I could call back for a more detailed ETA. When I did they said that a cable had been cut by workmen, and that it was being replaced with an ETA for restoration of 45 minutes. Incidentally the told me 700 homes were affected. Now I know not all would be calling but even so, it would still be a fair number and despite that they answered both calls within seconds.

That's exactly the sort of thing I am suggesting the rail industry could do.

There is a fine line to be drawn between senior managers getting involved and getting in the way. In many cases the personnel dealing with the issues are well able to deal with them, What we have is a volume of work issue not a quality of decision-making issue. This belief that the presence of a senior manager makes things run better is both demeaning to the staff and indicative of a lack of experience in more senior roles.

I agree entirely - the role of managers is to set direction, ensure communication between different parts of the org, and to facilitate their reports ability to do their job. The primary role of a manager in a crisis situation is to ensure that their reports are provided with the necessary resources and support to do their job effectively, the secondary role is to gather and communicate information.

The fastest way to asses the abilities of a manager is to see the first question they ask in a crisis.

Abysmal manager: "Who is responsible for this mess?"
Poor manager: "When will you fix it?"
Excellent manager: "What do you need?"

If the answer to the latter is "I have 200 passengers threatening to decamp if they don't get told what the **** is going on" then the next thing for them to do should be obvious - find out and pass it onto the train crew.

Fine. Write to your MP and ask him to enquire as to whether or not overly cautious H&S rules are creating more problems than they solve. Whilst you are at it you may like to ask him why Parliament feels the need to implement measures far stricter than even the EU Directives require. French safety Law by comparison to the UK is like a child’s storybook compared to the collected works of Shakespeare.

In my experience you get a better response from such queries by being specific, giving examples and proposing solutions. SO what particular aspects of the rules cause the most problems? How can they be made better?

That is not the issue at hand. The issue at hand is the selfish actions of passengers who frustrate and seriously delay the ability to recover the train service by their irresponsible actions.

For me the issue is how to manage said passengers. It is clear on current evidence that the approach used by the industry is failing time and time again. I know it can be hard to give into selfish irresponsible behaviour - but if that is what is needed to ensure the safe an efficient restoration of services - then surely those passengers who quietly remain on board in awful conditions deserve no less?

One thing I can say I genuinely believe. Unless the industry changes it's attitude to these incidents one day someone (probably elderly, pregnant or ill) will die of heatstroke, and on that day when the Corporate Manslaughter Act will come into play, it it will not be trespassers that will end up being made an example of in the courts.

 

[Old Timer]

Don't feed the Trolls chaps, it only encourages them

 

[90019]

Don't care. Not my problem.

And that there is the root cause of so many of the problems in society.

 

[Captain Chaos]

Don't feed the Trolls chaps, it only encourages them

I know! I know!

(It might be good actually to get this thread locked tbh).

 

[Nonsense]

What if its not a fatality, or a car on the tracks, or a live third rail or a murder scene or any other unlikely eventuality.

What if its single track and no power system, no bridge or tunnel or embankment. Just a dead hot train in a field. What then? What dangers are there, beyond exiting the train itself down to track level? A bunch of people stood in a field waiting hours in the fresh air. Is that worse than being stuck inside?

 

[Nonsense]

Don't feed the Trolls chaps, it only encourages them

Which ones are the troll posts?

 

[90019]

:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d:d

 

[Captain Chaos]

Which ones are the troll posts?

Well SurreyTraveller is showing himself as a prime example at the moment.

 

[Surreytraveller]

Well SurreyTraveller is showing himself as a prime example at the moment.

Sorry.