Penalty fare for wrong ticket, potentially off route

[JohnJBC]

Hi all,

I'm looking for some advice. Last week my partner and I travelled between Chester and Liverpool lime street. My partner booked the tickets via thetrainline.com while we were walking to the station. My partner is from Sweden and didn't realise there were different routes available between Chester and Liverpool, one with TFW and one Merseyrail. Of course we ended up on the wrong train, she had bought one via Runcorn and we ended up on the Merseyrail train. Our tickets were checked on the train and we were issued with a £100 penalty fare (each) which was something of a shock given that we had purchased tickets before travel and it was obviously just an innocent mistake. My question is whether or not the penalty fair is legal given that we had tickets but were off route? There was no warning on the route when buying the ticket and ticket doesn't say TFW only, just route via Runcorn. Shouldn't this have been a new ticket / excess charge rather than a penalty? Ticket and image of penalty attached. We are going to try appealing. Any advice much appreciated!

Thanks,
John

 

[Bletchleyite]

That PF is incorrectly issued as it states "no ticket" when in fact one was presented. That alone should mean a successful appeal.

Note however that the correct fare will remain due.

 

[Mainline421]

A penalty fare should never have been issued under these circumstances so this is extremely concerning. You should have been charged half the difference between the routes (less than a pound!). This is likely why the reason given is incorrect.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Shouldn't/couldn't an "Alt Route" excess have been issued? (Might have involved a change of ticket type).

 

[Bletchleyite]

Shouldn't/couldn't an "Alt Route" excess have been issued? (Might have involved a change of ticket type).

Yes, that would have been the correct thing to do.

 

[JohnJBC]

Shouldn't/couldn't an "Alt Route" excess have been issued? (Might have involved a change of ticket type).

I offered to buy the correct tickets when they informed us the tickets we had were incorrect. The official response was that Merseyrail operate a 'buy before you travel' policy therefore we would have to pay a penalty as well as the correct fare. The conductor checked our tickets then passed us over to two men wearing a body cam to issue the penalty. They insisted on seeing ID with our addresses on etc. It was all deeply unpleasant to be honest!

So an appeal should basically state that the reason for the penalty is invalid as we had a ticket but were completely accidentally off route?

 

[Merseysider]

You should include reference to National Rail Condition of Travel 13.2, which states:

If you make a journey by a route that is not valid you will be liable to pay an excess fare. The price for this will be the difference between the amount paid for the Ticket you hold and the lowest price Ticket available for immediate travel that would have entitled you to travel by that route.

Link: https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e...572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

 

[Brissle Girl]

The National Rail Conditions of Travel say that you should have been issued an excess fare, not a Penalty Fare. That too should be cited in your appeal.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/77fuBWp62YPSrGwBP1mNQX/5f912e6484a2dc7efbad3b4ed0c9b383/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel_2024.pdf

9.5 Where you: 9.5.1 are using a time-restricted Ticket (such as an “off-peak” or “super-off-peak” Ticket) that is correctly dated but invalid for the service on which you are travelling; or 9.5.2 are using a route for which your Ticket is not valid; or 9.5.3 break your journey when you are not permitted to do so; you will be charged the difference between the fare that you have paid and the lowest price Ticket that is valid for the train you are using.

Is the route via Runcorn more expensive? That could mean that there is no excess fare to be paid?

Edit: @Merseysider beat me to it by a minute!

 

[ikcdab]

It's also worth noting that there is no legal requirement to carry ID in the UK so although he could ask for it, you are under no obligation to show ID.

 

[Mainline421]

So an appeal should basically state that the reason for the penalty is invalid as we had a ticket but were completely accidentally off route?

It doesn't even have to be an accident, and you do not need to buy new tickets. You have the right to pay the difference on board under National Rail Condition of Travel 13.2 (and in the case of a return like this they should only charge you half the difference for one way).

I'd be writing a sternly worded response asking why their RPIs were not aware of this and that they rectify this in future.

Is the route via Runcorn more expensive? That could mean that there is no excess fare to be paid?

It's £1 cheaper, so the correct ammout due is 50p, but shockingly Merseyrail are asking for £106.60! And had to put an incorrect reason since there isn't one for 'wrong route' for a reason

 

[WesternLancer]

It doesn't even have to be an accident, and you do not need to buy new tickets. You have the right to pay the difference on board under National Rail Condition of Travel 13.2 (and in the case of a return like this they should only charge you half the difference for one way).

I'd be writing a sternly worded response asking why their RPIs were not aware of this and that they rectify this in future.


It's £1 cheaper, so the correct ammout due is 50p, but shockingly Merseyrail are asking for £106.60! And had to put an incorrect reason since there isn't one for 'wrong route' for a reason

Yes, would be worth writing to Merseyrail along these lines, but that would need to be separate to the Appeal surely? the Appeal will be to an independent body who will consider it (unless different with Merseyrail?)

To @JohnJBC - the Appeals org often seems unable to understand the basis of Appeals (well it seems this way to me from cases on here) - you may wish to post up a draft of your Appeal wording on here - based on the grounds people have made above - so that experts here can check your wording is as good and effective as it can be.

Also - be sure not to miss the Appeal deadline.

 

[Brissle Girl]

I feel a Freedom of Information Request coming on, asking how many Penalty Fares have Merseyrail imposed for passengers with a ticket via Runcorn?

 

[Haywain]

I feel a Freedom of Information Request coming on, asking how many Penalty Fares have Merseyrail imposed for passengers with a ticket via Runcorn?

If the reason recorded is 'no ticket' they won't know.

 

[Brissle Girl]

If the reason recorded is 'no ticket' they won't know.

Good point!

 

[glasgowniteowl]

If the reason recorded is 'no ticket' they won't know.

A request for all supplementary reasons given when the reason "no ticket" is selected may produce results in in this Instance would have thrown up "ticket for tfw.. etc"

Or maybe a request for all pf issued with the word tfw etc might work as well

 

[Haywain]

A request for all supplementary reasons given when the reason "no ticket" is selected may produce results in in this Instance would have thrown up "ticket for tfw.. etc"

Or maybe a request for all pf issued with the word tfw etc might work as well

You are assuming that information is recorded.

 

[Hadders]

The Penalty Fare should not have been charged in this case. A Change of Route excess fare should have been charged instead, which is the same price whether purchased in advance of travel or onboard.

This should be appealed quoting condition 9.5.2 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel. The appeal should be allowed, although you will still have to pay the value of the excess fare. I'm not confident that the appeal will succeed first time - don't worry about this we can assist when it gets to the 2nd or 3rd stage.

Make sure you keep copies of everything you send and receive in connection with this.

Feel free to post a draft of your appeal in this thread and we can assist in getting the wording of it correct.

 

[185]

Wrongly issued and an excess fare should have been charged. Their RPI, (probably from Carlisle Plc) effectively entering A. No Ticket then underneath it B. Yeah they did but it was TFWs is just staggering.

- The difference in fare should be offered by Merseyrail on appeal.

Spital to Bromborough seems a regular spot for Carlisle revenue, rarely see them on the other Wirral lines.

 

[AlterEgo]

Wrongly issued and an excess fare should have been charged. Their RPI, (probably from Carlisle Plc) effectively entering A. No Ticket then underneath it B. Yeah they did but it was TFWs is just staggering.

It's not even "TFW's" ticket, it is just a geographic route!

 

[kristiang85]

For such blatant incorrect use of penalty fares such as this, TOCs should have to pay passengers an admin fee for their time and inconvenience, akin to what passengers are charged. It might focus minds and training somewhat.

 

[Mcr Warrior]

For the avoidance of doubt, how much additional fare is/was due, if any?

 

[Brissle Girl]

For the avoidance of doubt, how much additional fare is/was due, if any?

Ten shillings apparently. (50p to younger readers.)

 

[tspaul26]

It's £1 cheaper, so the correct ammout due is 50p, but shockingly Merseyrail are asking for £106.60! And had to put an incorrect reason since there isn't one for 'wrong route' for a reason

Ten shillings apparently. (50p to younger readers.)

How have these figures been calculated please?

Presumably half the difference between a via Birkenhead Anytime Day Return (£5.75) less the via Runcorn Off Peak Day Return (£4.75) with Two Together railcard (assuming one way change of route only)?

Per passenger

 

[AlterEgo]

How have these figures been calculated please?

Presumably half the difference between a via Birkenhead Anytime Day Return (£5.75) less the via Runcorn Off Peak Day Return (£4.75) with Two Together railcard (assuming one way change of route only)?

Per passenger

That's correct, half the difference is charged if the more expensive route is taken in one direction only.

 

[gray1404]

We seem to be seeing a lot of mistakes in penalty fares getting issued on Merseyrail at the moment and I am wondering what the criteria is for getting a penalty fare scheme suspended until fundamental problems are fixed.

It is evident that those issuing PFs on Merseyrail are not given full training. Rather a dumbed down version.

Could the OP please confirm if they were required to purchase an additional tickets for travel.

 

[185]

Hope nobody snitches to the press (again) on our poor, long suffering rail firm.

Every week making local news, they don't learn.

 

[HurdyGurdy]

Getting the Echo reporter to understand how a change of route excess is supposed to be calculated in one direction only for a return ticket discounted with a Two Together Railcard might be a challenge.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Getting the Echo reporter to understand how a change of route excess is supposed to be calculated in one direction only for a return ticket discounted with a Two Together Railcard might be a challenge.

Should be fairly easy to get them to understand that a Penalty Fare is not a correct way of dealing with it, though. They'd love being able to slap a massive "FINED" headline in fake-rubber-stamp font on that.

 

[185]

*Don't wish to drift away from the primary subject but I note up the thread someone suggests asking for penalty fare statistics from the operator. It should be noted that after some discussion, the senior officers of Merseyside PTE effectively stated it's nothing to do with them, and the operator MEL twice ignored contact, so now (I'm reliably told) an MP is requesting the operator's PF figures (solely for failure to collect TOD) from the local authority-run PTE.

 

[JohnJBC]

We seem to be seeing a lot of mistakes in penalty fares getting issued on Merseyrail at the moment and I am wondering what the criteria is for getting a penalty fare scheme suspended until fundamental problems are fixed.

It is evident that those issuing PFs on Merseyrail are not given full training. Rather a dumbed down version.

Could the OP please confirm if they were required to purchase an additional tickets for travel.

No, but they slapped the ticket charge on top of the penelty fare. We ended up buying another single home because it saved us a 30 minute wait for the one back via runcorn - of course no one checked our tickets on the way back.