Penalty fare for wrong ticket, potentially off route

[gray1404]

I would also be clear about there being no requirement for an excess to be obtained before boarding the train.

 

[Fawkes Cat]

though perhaps you don't need to tell them that NRCoT apply to Mersyrail?)

I really don't think that it does any harm to spell out every single point. It's not just a case of taking the appeal officer through your argument in easy steps - you need to go over the bridge instead of using the stepping stones so there's no chance of them falling off by them making an assumption.

 

[AdamWW]

The rest is OK (though perhaps you don't need to tell them that NRCoT apply to Mersyrail?).

I think we have seen Merseyrail in the past claim that they are exempt, so maybe it does need saying.

 

[robbeech]

The rest is OK (though perhaps you don't need to tell them that NRCoT apply to Mersyrail?).

I think we have seen Merseyrail in the past claim that they are exempt, so maybe it does need saying.

Absolutely this, they do believe they are exempt from any rules, as does the rest of the railway so it’s always important to remind them, if only to alert them to the fact that you are aware of the rules.

 

[JohnJBC]

Hi everyone,

A long time since the last update. Success at appeal two! It has been decided we only have to pay the excess fare not the penalty. Thank you all so much for your help. If not for the advice here I would have appealed then given up and paid the fine when it was rejected at first. It's a shame, but Merseyrail seem to be pursuing this as a cynical revenue generating exercise even though it's not legal within the regulations. Appealing is difficult and you really need to know your stuff, I imagine most people just pay the fine. I hope other people in the same boat see this thread and appeal themselves.

Thanks again!

 

[John R]

Thank you very much for the update, and I completely agree with the comment that most people would just pay up. It’s not at all satisfactory.

 

[Hadders]

Hi everyone,

A long time since the last update. Success at appeal two! It has been decided we only have to pay the excess fare not the penalty. Thank you all so much for your help. If not for the advice here I would have appealed then given up and paid the fine when it was rejected at first. It's a shame, but Merseyrail seem to be pursuing this as a cynical revenue generating exercise even though it's not legal within the regulations. Appealing is difficult and you really need to know your stuff, I imagine most people just pay the fine. I hope other people in the same boat see this thread and appeal themselves.

Thanks again!

Thanks for updating us. I am very pleased that Merseyrail came to the correct decision in the end.

I think it's really just a lack of competence at Merseyrail rather than anything more sinister. The problem is the lack of competence in endemic across many areas of the organisation.

 

[gray1404]

So once you have paid the excess, Merseyrail should be funding the additional tickets you were forced to purchase.

If they refuse make a formal complaint and take the matter to the rail ombudsman.

 

[Hadders]

So once you have paid the excess, Merseyrail should be funding the additional tickets you were forced to purchase.

If they refuse make a formal complaint and take the matter to the rail ombudsman.

I don't think the OP purchased additional tickets. They were issued with a Penalty Fare which they have successfully appealed. They still need to pay for the change of route excess which is what they have been asked to pay.

 

[JohnJBC]

I don't think the OP purchased additional tickets. They were issued with a Penalty Fare which they have successfully appealed. They still need to pay for the change of route excess which is what they have been asked to pay.

That is correct, the additional fare was added to the penalty charge and has also been removed. It's just the difference in the ticket price to pay. Definitely a win!

 

[Mainline421]

I'm surprised they are actually asking for 50p, but a good result

 

[reb0118]

I don't think the OP purchased additional tickets.

My understanding was that the OP purchased additional singles, route via Birkenhead, to return to Chester later that evening as there were no suitable via Runcorn trains available. These were only purchased due to the fact that the OP was given wrong information that his original tickets were wholly invalid via Birkenhead, as opposed to being partially invalid with that invalidity being able to be regulated by way of an excess.

 

[JohnJBC]

My understanding was that the OP purchased additional singles, route via Birkenhead, to return to Chester later that evening as there were no suitable via Runcorn trains available. These were only purchased due to the fact that the OP was given wrong information that his original tickets were wholly invalid via Birkenhead, as opposed to being partially invalid with that invalidity being able to be regulated by way of an excess.

This is true actually. If I still had the tickets/receipt and was minded to continue to deal with Merseyrail, I might consider asking for that back on principle. The hard truth is the time and effort this process has cost me already has not been worth the saving in purely financial terms. I would have earned way more than I saved putting this time into my work. It really was the principle - but for the additional 5/6 quid it cost me... I am happy to take the win and leave it at that!

 

[kristiang85]

This is true actually. If I still had the tickets/receipt and was minded to continue to deal with Merseyrail, I might consider asking for that back on principle. The hard truth is the time and effort this process has cost me already has not been worth the saving in purely financial terms. I would have earned way more than I saved putting this time into my work. It really was the principle - but for the additional 5/6 quid it cost me... I am happy to take the win and leave it at that!

This is the frustrating thing - TOCs can charge a £100+ fee for their administrative time spent on irregularities, but the reverse is not true when passengers have been wronged. A statutory £50/£100 compensation to passengers who have been found to have received invalid penalty fares/notices might focus minds very quickly on training within these organisations.

 

[SickyNicky]

I'm surprised they are actually asking for 50p, but a good result

Send them a cheque for 50p - it'll cost them more than that to process it

 

[gray1404]

I personally would pay the 50p excess to bring the matter to a close. I'd do this online to save your costs.

Then I would write a complaint to Merseyrail enclosing a copy of the successful appeal outcome showing that only an excess should have been charged, the original tickets and all the additional tickets you were forced to purchase as a result and request a refund of the additional tickets. I would also ask for compensation given the Penalty Fare was issued incorrectly.

Again I would do this by email to save your costs. If Merseyrail do not refund the tickets then send it to the Rail Ombudsman.

 

[jfollows]

Send them a cheque for 50p - it'll cost them more than that to process it

Agreed. And a second class stamp. I've twice had to pay debt collectors (who were not wrong, they were acting for administrators of energy suppliers who went bust on me) and this is the method I used then.

 

[gray1404]

Hi everyone,

A long time since the last update. Success at appeal two! It has been decided we only have to pay the excess fare not the penalty. Thank you all so much for your help. If not for the advice here I would have appealed then given up and paid the fine when it was rejected at first. It's a shame, but Merseyrail seem to be pursuing this as a cynical revenue generating exercise even though it's not legal within the regulations. Appealing is difficult and you really need to know your stuff, I imagine most people just pay the fine. I hope other people in the same boat see this thread and appeal themselves.

Thanks again!

Would you mind posting a copy of your successful appeal outcome letter, with your personal details retracted of course? It's just we are trying to help someone else traveling from Chester on a via Runcorn ticket who is being taken to Court by Merseyrail. Unlike you, they didn't appeal. @JohnJBC

 

[JohnJBC]

Would you mind posting a copy of your successful appeal outcome letter, with your personal details retracted of course? It's just we are trying to help someone else traveling from Chester on a via Runcorn ticket who is being taken to Court by Merseyrail. Unlike you, they didn't appeal. @JohnJBC

Of course, I’d be glad to help. I am away this weekend but I will post the response to my appeal tomorrow evening when I get home.

 

[LAX54]

Send them a cheque for 50p - it'll cost them more than that to process it

2nd class stamp is 85p, so will cost to send it, just do it 'free' online

 

[gray1404]

Of course, I’d be glad to help. I am away this weekend but I will post the response to my appeal tomorrow evening when I get home.

Thank you @JohnJBC that would be great.

The person we are trying to help has a thread here https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/merseyrail-trainline-disconnect.274229/page-2

 

[JohnJBC]

So in case it helps anyone else in future - attached is the outcome letter from my appeal.

 

[Western Sunset]

A lot of (duplicate) copy and pasting in their reply. Any no sense of any apology whatsoever.

 

[MotCO]

A lot of (duplicate) copy and pasting in their reply. Any no sense of any apology whatsoever.

I thought that as well, although surely it should have been the first assessor who should have apologised.

I would have expected something to say something like that the first appeal had wrongly interpreted the rules, but the letter comes across as rather 'cold' and unfeeling.

 

[AdamWW]

A lot of (duplicate) copy and pasting in their reply. Any no sense of any apology whatsoever.

Of course not. Not that an empty apology achieves much if there's no intent to take action to prevent it from happening again.

Perhaps if a penalty fare is found on appeal to have been issued incorrectly (rather than with knowledge only available in hindsight) it should be reversed, i.e. the £50 paid to the passenger to recompense them for the inconvenience and stress.

After all, the system is based (with good reason!) on the principle that passengers need coercion to prevent them from saving money by breaking the rules.

But perhaps the railway needs an incentive to devote more resources to staff training? And if actually the railway is already doing very well and we're getting a very biassed view of the scale of the problem in this forum then that's fine...it won't cost them much.

 

[Haywain]

Any no sense of any apology whatsoever.

As the appeals assessor represents an independent neutral body, I don't see as they would have any need to apologise.

 

[gray1404]

So in case it helps anyone else in future - attached is the outcome letter from my appeal.

Thanks for posting this.