Sorry, I meant you'll probably only get a generic 'we'll pass this on' type response.
Fair enough. Yes I'd expect that.
Sorry, I meant you'll probably only get a generic 'we'll pass this on' type response.
Absolutely - and nothing really technical about it as compliant signage is one of the key prerequisites of a Penalty Fares scheme. Being charitable, perhaps they are "only" issuing warnings for now.New signs at Middlesbrough last night but no sign of new signs at my origin station this morning but RPIs are on board and I would assume issue a PF which would then be technically invalid.
They certainly issued at least one PF but for a passenger from a different station so I'm not sure whether the signage was compliant or not (but I'd be surprised if it was as they're hardly likely to do one station but not the other!)!Absolutely - and nothing really technical about it as compliant signage is one of the key prerequisites of a Penalty Fares scheme. Being charitable, perhaps they are "only" issuing warnings for now.
I wonder if there's a regional thing going on. All the PF signs at stations around Leeds were replaced before the change over date.Northern could probably cover the hard fixed signs with stickers, but until then should simply cover the signs completely.
Didn't the signs on the Underground change to say you might have to ay a Penalty Fare without specifying the amount? Presumably so thatr they don't have to update the signage when the price of the penalty fare changes.There must be loads of places that have a mention of £20, including gatelines and onboard some trains. I think the majority of trains just mention penalty fares without saying an amount, but I wonder how many exceptions there are?
Likewise, I am pretty sure tube trains have/had signs saying £80 and given TfL is going to raise this to £100 at some point in the near future, they're going to have a lot more work to do - although will quite likely do this with small cut out stickers to put over the amount.
Northern could probably cover the hard fixed signs with stickers, but until then should simply cover the signs completely.
I can only say that at my West region Northern station the (important from legal compliance standpoint) plaque was swapped out weeks before the change. The posters are left to ISS cleaners/station staff, the "from 23 January..." poster should have been displayed prior to the change and replaced with effectively the same poster minus the "from 23 January..." bit on the 23rd.The industry really does need to get a grip of the itty bitty bits like this. There some stuff which I think is somewhat slapdash but you can live with (out of date engineering work posters, old Covid posters, etc etc) but it really isn't good enough that they cannot get important information like this deployed to stations and done so clearly without the contradicting posters being left lying around! I assume in this case it's because it was given to a third party contractor who was told to change the posters in the poster cabinets but no-one has been engaged to go and remove the old plaques.
Or perhaps a twelve month course in how to understand the complexities of rail ticketing, its hard enough for experienced staff to figure it out what chance has someone arriving from a place with a simplified and straightforward system got or one from where railways don't exist. Perhaps a college could hold the courses and sell places to TOC's for there own staff.Perhaps the university/colleges should include in their Welcome Pack a specific warning that fare evasion may be serious enough to negate their expensive education. This would be addressed to both domestic and overseas students, along with a brief description as to how Railcards work.
Or maybe they already do this?
Or perhaps a twelve month course in how to understand the complexities of rail ticketing, its hard enough for experienced staff to figure it out what chance has someone arriving from a place with a simplified and straightforward system got or one from where railways don't exist. Perhaps a college could hold the courses and sell places to TOC's for there own staff.
I'd like to see penalties and significant compensation for those wrongly charged with offences or penalised but as we see the railway makes it as difficult as possible to fight back and holds all the cards.
Perhaps! Though observation from the train whilst passing through suggests that Redcar East has gone from having a poster advising of the PF scheme at the entrance to the Middlesbrough bound to not having a poster at all as this has been replaced by a poster advising about strike action (but this was from a passing trains so I could have missed something!).Your station feels like a bit of an outlier. Longbeck looks like, I can report.
Just went through Redcar East and couldn't actually spot any PF signage at all at the entrance to or on the Saltburn bound platform. Will happily admit though that a moving train isn't the best place to observe from!
The posters are an important eye grabbing reinforcement especially when the change is new but you are always going to be dependent on the abilities of individual staff members how effectively displayed they are.
Again I would distinguish in the language between PF "signs" and PF "posters". My comment was concerning the posters not the signs. The signs are positioned with thought and were updated in many locations (although seemingly not Longbeck) weeks before the change. You can justifiably argue that the posters should be held to a high standard as well, but they are an informational extra distinct from the legal situation in most Northern locations.One would like to think that every station had been surveyed, the optimum location and number of PF signs had been established, and when updated those doing the updating were required to provide photographic evidence that each sign location had indeed been updated.
And Middlesbrough seeing as the sign from the car park also hasn't been updatedThe signs are positioned with thought and were updated in many locations (although seemingly not Longbeck) weeks before the change.
Again I would distinguish in the language between PF "signs" and PF "posters". My comment was concerning the posters not the signs. The signs are positioned with thought and were updated in many locations (although seemingly not Longbeck) weeks before the change. You can justifiably argue that the posters should be held to a high standard as well, but they are an informational extra distinct from the legal situation in most Northern locations.
There is no legal difference between metal signs and posters, as long as they are in the correct locations.Looking at the October 2021 survey images on Google Maps the permanent hard signs (the ones that matter for legal compliance) are positioned on the fence and wouldn't be visible from the train. What particularly concerned me about Longbeck was that sign had not been updated.
The posters are an important eye grabbing reinforcement especially when the change is new but you are always going to be dependent on the abilities of individual staff members how effectively displayed they are.
Better late than never but the old signs have been taken down and replaced with current ones in the optimal location. Why this couldn't have been done promptly is anyone's guess...
It also takes time when there are hundreds of locations involved, and with such things the odd one might get missed at the first go.Changing signs costs money,
That's fine as long as operators suspend issuing Penalty Fares until they're confident that they have compliant signage in place at all stations. But, quite predictably, the evidence suggests that this wasn't the case, and that some operators have nevertheless continued to issue Penalty Fares despite having old signage in place.It also takes time when there are hundreds of locations involved, and with such things the odd one might get missed at the first go.
I don't disagree with that.That's fine as long as operators suspend issuing Penalty Fares until they're confident that they have compliant signage in place at all stations.
Its the responsibility of the passenger to keep the device charged and a ticket must be shown when requested.I noticed Northern have some new posters up based on their 'cartoon design' depicting a passenger telling the guard their phone is dead resulting in the £100 penalty fare along with the strapline 'Buy before you board' (which is slightly mixed messaging, the passenger may have indeed bought the ticket before their battery went dead!)
Something I've always wondered if indeed a phone is dead when the ticket inspection comes round but the passenger has the facility to charge their phone on board (i.e. a cable and charging sockets) is there any official guidance as to if they're 'allowed' to present their ticket later in the journey to avoid the penalty being issued? I'm guessing it would be more discretion based
In such circumstances I would suggest using paper tickets or bringing a power bank, people manage to keep their devices charged all day somehow so I'm not sure why on a train should be any different, the vast majority of honest travellers manage to keep their devices charged throughout their journeys.Problem is smartphones often only have 2 to 3 hours battery life using internet, so on a longer journey it's not very practical
Bring a power bank then.Problem is smartphones often only have 2 to 3 hours battery life using internet, so on a longer journey it's not very practical