Pendolino Rough Riding Question

[RichW1]

Dear all, I travel to Manchester a lot on business now and I have felt and heard a lot of regular grinding where the bogies are and I am just wondering now why the Pendolino cannot travel and do what it does with more manners, meaning more quietly?!

What causes this grinding and creaking noise and are other Pendolinos on the Continent the same? Have we got another uniquely British problem with ours?

The most comfortable, quiet and best ride quality for UK trains is on the electrostars as well as the old networkers. They are quiet, very smooth and sadly Intercity's do not use the same technology it seems.

Intercity should be the top travel experience but creaks, rattles and grinding is very annoying. You should be able to hear a clock tick on an Intercity. I have to say, the older Intercity's used to be quieter than ones today - is this progress?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The main actual noise on a Pendolino is the rather powerful air conditioning, not the running gear.

 

[neilb62]

They've always seemed noisy underneath being designed to run on TGV standard (or similar) track. At Old-Dalby we did months of suspension tuning when it was realised the WCML wasn't going to be re-laid to European High Speed standard and they were going to have to do 125 on 'normal' (knackerd!) Railtrack (as was) infrastructure. On the Test-Track they rode very quietly and smoothly but I feel the suspension is frequently out of its depth and has to work very hard in the real world.

 

[RichmondCommu]

They've always seemed noisy underneath being designed to run on TGV standard (or similar) track. At Old-Dalby we did months of suspension tuning when it was realised the WCML wasn't going to be re-laid to European High Speed standard and they were going to have to do 125 on 'normal' (knackerd!) Railtrack (as was) infrastructure. On the Test-Track they rode very quietly and smoothly but I feel the suspension is frequently out of its depth and has to work very hard in the real world.

So in other words it's not the train or indeed it's build quality but the track that's causing any problems.

 

[neilb62]

So in other words it's not the train or indeed it's build quality but the track that's causing any problems.

A bit of each I'd say. I'd like to see how one rides (and sounds) over a distance on new high quality track.

 

[fowler9]

There is a fair bit of a whine from the traction motors I presume. Doesn't bother me really as I always prefered being near the loco anyway but may make them seem louder than some loco hauled coaching stock at times.

 

[Kentish Paul]

The main actual noise on a Pendolino is the rather powerful air conditioning, not the running gear.

I've always found the class 444 had the loudest aircon.

Also the class 395 had to have lateral damping modifications because of noticeable "hunting" on mainly straight sections of the slab track in the London tunnels in the early days. I can well remember it and the worried look on some passengers faces. It was fine on ballasted track.

 

[causton]

I've always found the class 444 had the loudest aircon.

Can agree with that on the sister units, the 350s. When you hear the air con go off in a neutral section, the silence is quite a relief!

 

[sprinterguy]

The knocking and groaning noises coming from beneath the floor are quite distinct from the air conditioning and traction motor sounds. neilb62 has pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I would hazard an uninformed opinion that the suspension on SIG bogies is set up quite stiff for intercity stock in general, and the rough riding has a lot to do with the yaw dampers that limit "hunting" or side to side movement of the bogies. Mark 4 carriages (which are also fitted with SIG bogies) also bear some of the same hallmarks of hard riding and knocking sounds and were notorious for rough riding when they were new (Part of the cure was to turn the bogies through 180 degrees to reduce the angle of the yaw dampers between bogie and body). And BR had put a lot of thought into the ride quality and natural resonant frequencies of the mark 4 carriages during their development (aiming to match the qualities of the mark 3) so the effect shouldn't have been as pronounced.

See here for more information on the problems faced with the SIG bogies fitted to the mark 4s:
http://www.traintesting.com/ic225_6.htm

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

A bit of each I'd say. I'd like to see how one rides (and sounds) over a distance on new high quality track.

The nearest you can get to that is the new TV4 section of the WCML (Tamworth-Armitage), and maybe Norton Bridge-Crewe which was relaid.
It seems to me to be somewhat smoother on these sections, but hard to tell really.
Although you can get a variety of rides, 390s are normally very good.
On the same track north of Wigan, the TPE 350s are quite wobbly at 110mph with significant hunting, while 390s at 125mph are still pretty smooth.
Noise depends on whether you are sitting over a traction motor.

 

[neilb62]

The nearest you can get to that is the new TV4 section of the WCML (Tamworth-Armitage), and maybe Norton Bridge-Crewe which was relaid.
It seems to me to be somewhat smoother on these sections, but hard to tell really.
Although you can get a variety of rides, 390s are normally very good.
On the same track north of Wigan, the TPE 350s are quite wobbly at 110mph with significant hunting, while 390s at 125mph are still pretty smooth.
Noise depends on whether you are sitting over a traction motor.

The TPE 350 should only be doing 100 there... Or anywhere for that matter.

The Trent-Valley is indeed probably about the best bit of track we get on.

 

[notadriver]

Now that many 350s can do 110 mph and have better initial acceleration, would it be fair to say they are faster than a Pendolino with its tilt disabled ?

 

[cjmillsnun]

Can agree with that on the sister units, the 350s. When you hear the air con go off in a neutral section, the silence is quite a relief!

Sadly we don't get that on the 444 or 450. Apart from a tiny gap in the con rail near Waterloo.

 

[Hophead]

The most comfortable, quiet and best ride quality for UK trains is on the electrostars as well as the old networkers. They are quiet, very smooth and sadly Intercity's do not use the same technology it seems.

You must be travelling on different Electrostars to me. On a 377, the centre of the coach is, admittedly, a good steady ride, and the seats are great. Over the bogies is a rather different matter, though, and the ride could hardly be described as 'smooth'.

 

[Phil.]

What I've experienced with pedolinos is a terrible vibration/rattle/shudder from the overhead luggage racks. Very very noisy - and annoying - at times.

 

[Kentish Paul]

What I've experienced with pedolinos is a terrible vibration/rattle/shudder from the overhead luggage racks. Very very noisy - and annoying - at times.

The same thing is appearing on the class 395. On a few trips recently i've been driven mad by the rattle/vibration. Couldn't work out where it was coming from.
It seemed to be the ceiling panels as the luggage racks are pretty solid.

Strange as the units have only been in operation since 2009 although if you don't tighten up everything every so often, running at 140 mph will tend to work things loose.

 

[hassaanhc]

There is a fair bit of a whine from the traction motors I presume. Doesn't bother me really as I always prefered being near the loco anyway but may make them seem louder than some loco hauled coaching stock at times.

There are unpowered (trailer) coaches available: C, E, U and H (however, C and H have the transformer+pantograph so depending on which pair of those is in use you'd get the transformer whine instead).

The nearest you can get to that is the new TV4 section of the WCML (Tamworth-Armitage), and maybe Norton Bridge-Crewe which was relaid.
It seems to me to be somewhat smoother on these sections, but hard to tell really.
Although you can get a variety of rides, 390s are normally very good.
On the same track north of Wigan, the TPE 350s are quite wobbly at 110mph with significant hunting, while 390s at 125mph are still pretty smooth.
Noise depends on whether you are sitting over a traction motor.

Make that all Desiros at speed (ok not 110mph but I'm guessing above about 60 or so). Can't really notice it if sat in the centre of the coach, but over the bogies I've had 350, 360, 444 and 450s that hunt a lot on track that isn't perfect.

 

[neilb62]

Now that many 350s can do 110 mph and have better initial acceleration, would it be fair to say they are faster than a Pendolino with its tilt disabled ?

They are quicker off the mark than a pendo, the LM ones that are permitted to do 110 would be effectively as quick.

 

[rebmcr]

There are unpowered (trailer) coaches available: C, E, U and H (however, C and H have the transformer+pantograph so depending on which pair of those is in use you'd get the transformer whine instead).

The pantograph itself emits louder creaks than the bogies, in my experience.

 

[neilb62]

The pantograph itself emits louder creaks than the bogies, in my experience.

Can't say I've noticed much pantograph noise but it must makes some as it gets dragged left to right on its guide rails, maybe drive belt noise?

 

[aylesbury]

What is the loud beeping noise that you hear from time to time during a journey cant describe it exactly but it is loud?

 

[Domh245]

Can anyone confirm what the odd noise you get from time to time is. Usually when you are at speed, there is a sort of grinding noise, just about audible in this video

https://youtu.be/K96asxe5nKY?t=36

 

[najaB]

Can anyone confirm what the odd noise you get from time to time is. Usually when you are at speed, there is a sort of grinding noise, just about audible in this video

https://youtu.be/K96asxe5nKY?t=36

At what point?

 

[Domh245]

A couple of seconds from where I posted the link. About 37.6s to 39. You may need to have volume up to hear it (and if possible, treble up as high as possible and bass lowered to pick it out)

 

[mbreckers]

At what point?

sounded a bit like flange squeal to me
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can agree with that on the sister units, the 350s. When you hear the air con go off in a neutral section, the silence is quite a relief!

Same with the 380's, its so relaxing when your sitting in Glasgow Central for a while and the air-con switches itself off

 

[najaB]

sounded a bit like flange squeal to me

Heard it now - I'd agree with that assessment.

 

[Goldfish62]

What I've experienced with pedolinos is a terrible vibration/rattle/shudder from the overhead luggage racks. Very very noisy - and annoying - at times.

Yes, it feels like the whole carriage is shaking itself to pieces. Hardly Intercity ambiance!

 

[rebmcr]

What I've experienced with pedolinos is a terrible vibration/rattle/shudder from the overhead luggage racks. Very very noisy - and annoying - at times.

This tends to be the window blind — pulling them down a few cm tends to quieten them.