• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

PEP Class idea

Status
Not open for further replies.

Aictos

Established Member
Joined
28 Apr 2009
Messages
10,403
One solution I've heard recently regarding specifically the Class 313s on the Great Northern route is having them converted to being permanent 6 car trains with the cabs at one end being removed and having passenger seating put in.

Of course this would mean a major rebuild of these 313s and while newer stock would be preferred, this could one way of extending their life.

One wonders if the other members of the class could have similar work done, ie the 507s/508s from Merseyside and the 314s from First Scot Rail...
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

73001

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2010
Messages
398
Location
Liverpool
I can't really see any advantage for this at all. You lose the flexibility of having 3-car trains available (certainly used frequently on Merseyside) and if part of the unit fails, you've lost 6 cars rather than 3. If you were going to spend that much money on refurbishing them, you might as well leave them as 3-cars. I could see a case maybe for removing one of the driving cars and making them 5-car trains (although as platforms in some areas may not be able to take 10-car trains, this may leave a shortage of capacity at peak times). These would be powerful enough (3 motor cars, 2 trailers), be a bit cheaper to run and would provide a source of spares. But, as I said originally, I can't see any point in doing this at all for the small amount of extra seating you would get... the cab area on these type of trains is not really very big.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810
I have no idea what the problem is that the solution is relating too?

Hell of an expensive cost for such very old stock.
 

bronzeonion

Member
Joined
1 Apr 2009
Messages
673
Location
West London
Didn't they used to let passengers into the current cab area? There is a drop down seat in that area and the driver is in a little cubicle in the corner.

When they are in the middle, a short rubber gangway with a step plate can't be too much of an expensive mod.
 

ChiefPlanner

Established Member
Joined
6 Sep 2011
Messages
7,812
Location
Herts
Not a bad idea - especially if you have to figure cab fitment costs for GSMR + ERTMS .
 

Class377/5

Established Member
Joined
19 Jun 2010
Messages
5,594
One solution I've heard recently regarding specifically the Class 313s on the Great Northern route is having them converted to being permanent 6 car trains with the cabs at one end being removed and having passenger seating put in.

Of course this would mean a major rebuild of these 313s and while newer stock would be preferred, this could one way of extending their life.

One wonders if the other members of the class could have similar work done, ie the 507s/508s from Merseyside and the 314s from First Scot Rail...

Currently no-one knows what's going to happen with the 313's. Doubt in the new Thameslink franchise that they will be majorly altered as its only a short franchise. And by the time it comes if a full length franchise, the units w I'll need replacing.

I can't really see any advantage for this at all. You lose the flexibility of having 3-car trains available (certainly used frequently on Merseyside) and if part of the unit fails, you've lost 6 cars rather than 3. If you were going to spend that much money on refurbishing them, you might as well leave them as 3-cars. I could see a case maybe for removing one of the driving cars and making them 5-car trains (although as platforms in some areas may not be able to take 10-car trains, this may leave a shortage of capacity at peak times). These would be powerful enough (3 motor cars, 2 trailers), be a bit cheaper to run and would provide a source of spares. But, as I said originally, I can't see any point in doing this at all for the small amount of extra seating you would get... the cab area on these type of trains is not really very big.

You'd still lose 6 cars if they were 3 car units as if they failed youd have to remove the whole train. That's unless they failed in the depot, which doesn't happen that often.

As for making them 5 car, not a great idea. The units are used heavily on he Northern City Line, with it's underground 6 car platforms. Making them 5 cars would mean a reducing if capacity that in peak would be noticeable. As for some platforms can't take them, well you'd have to terimate any 10 car at Finsbury Park, where there is neither the capacity to do so, nor the ability to cope with these extra passengers.
 

The_Stig

Member
Joined
20 Jan 2009
Messages
364
I personally don't think it would happen.

There are other factors to consider like the tightlock coupler/electrical head maintenance, the unit would have to split. If it was connected permanently then new semi-permanent couplers would have to be fitted and train wires would have to be joined somewhere. Not to mention the 314's already have GSM-R fitted in each cab and the doors would have to be filled/locked with the controls put away.

Like others have said they would lose 6 cars if there was a failure instead of 3.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,863
Surely if one half of the train failed the other half could still drag it out of the way in a similar way as it would now?

The train still consists of two seperate multiple units under this proposal as I understand it, it is just that they would effectively be single ended multiple units that can't decouple from each other in service but can in a depot-setting, sort of like a Eurostar.
 
Last edited:

RobShipway

Established Member
Joined
20 Sep 2009
Messages
3,337
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that the whole current Thameslink fleet is being replaced by Desiro's within the next two years anyway, including replacing the 313's?
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,072
Location
Macclesfield
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that the whole current Thameslink fleet is being replaced by Desiro's within the next two years anyway, including replacing the 313's?
The inner suburban services on the Great Northern side that the 313s work are not part of the Thameslink programme, and as such they will be unaffected by the introduction of the new Thameslink rolling stock and expansion of Thameslink operations to absorb GN outer suburban services.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,863
Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the case that the whole current Thameslink fleet is being replaced by Desiro's within the next two years anyway, including replacing the 313's?

Nope, 313 is not part of the Thameslink programme as it is used almost entirely on services out of Moorgate which are continuing unchanged.
Or on southern services but those are also not related to Thameslink (on the Coastway lines)
 

Dunderhead

Member
Joined
6 Mar 2012
Messages
107
Nope, 313 is not part of the Thameslink programme as it is used almost entirely on services out of Moorgate which are continuing unchanged.
Or on southern services but those are also not related to Thameslink (on the Coastway lines)

Page 72 of this document published last year indicates that the Welwyn services from Moorgate will be transferred to Thameslink and thus get the Desiros, but that extra Hertford services will take their place which will presumably use the 313s displaced from Welwyn
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
RUSs are general ideas and aspirations, often far from what actually gets implemented.
 

73001

Member
Joined
2 Jun 2010
Messages
398
Location
Liverpool
Surely if one half of the train failed the other half could still drag it out of the way in a similar way as it would now?

It could (probably) but you couldn't then uncouple the good half and put it back into service which I think is the suggestion.
 

The_Stig

Member
Joined
20 Jan 2009
Messages
364
Surely if one half of the train failed the other half could still drag it out of the way in a similar way as it would now?

The train still consists of two seperate multiple units under this proposal as I understand it, it is just that they would effectively be single ended multiple units that can't decouple from each other in service but can in a depot-setting, sort of like a Eurostar.

Yes, but, there will be a 6 car unit sat in a maintenance depot instead of a 3 car that has been rescued with the other set going back into service.
 

HSTEd

Veteran Member
Joined
14 Jul 2011
Messages
16,863
Yes, but, there will be a 6 car unit sat in a maintenance depot instead of a 3 car that has been rescued with the other set going back into service.

You could probably maintain a half set spare instead of the full three car set you have now, if one half of the set fails you just replace it with the spare half.
 

sprinterguy

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2010
Messages
11,072
Location
Macclesfield
You could probably maintain a half set spare instead of the full three car set you have now, if one half of the set fails you just replace it with the spare half.
You'd have to hope that the spare half set was facing the right way round to match up to the working half of the failed train. ;)

Hey, I've got an idea, what if you put a cab at each end of each three-car half set, and then you wouldn't have to worry about matching half sets up...Oh, yeah, that's a 313 isn't it :lol:
 

John55

Member
Joined
24 Jun 2011
Messages
800
Location
South East
One solution I've heard recently regarding specifically the Class 313s on the Great Northern route is having them converted to being permanent 6 car trains with the cabs at one end being removed and having passenger seating put in.

Of course this would mean a major rebuild of these 313s and while newer stock would be preferred, this could one way of extending their life.

One wonders if the other members of the class could have similar work done, ie the 507s/508s from Merseyside and the 314s from First Scot Rail...

Apart from the actual waste of money doing this I presume you do realise if the Merseyrail 507s and 508s were made into block 6 car trains there would have to be a reduction in services as the off peak service requires 36 diagrams and there are only 58 units on Merseyrail.
 

jopsuk

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2008
Messages
12,773
...and even if 14 of the remaining 15 (I'm going by Wikipedia here...) were refurbished and formed up, you can't successfully run 36 diagrams with only 36 formations.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top