Performance of "lumbering" Cl 40s and other early BR diesels

[70014IronDuke]

I've extracted this from this thread
https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/br-type-3s-regional-preferences.161534/
on BRCW Type 3s ( Class 33) as it was veering way off topic.

On the heavy loads on WCML passenger services in the 1960s, you would be lucky to get much faster than the high 70s (mph) unless you were going downhill - and 25 mph up Shap was typical. A good condition Pacific with a willing crew could outrun a 40. However, in later years of the steam era, getting a good quality Pacific (& willing crew) was unusual, and the 40s were more consistent....
.

To be fair, WCML expresses in the early 60s were HEAVY - I mean, 14-15 carriages were normal - and were not timed for anything much faster than 75 max, I should think. Does anyone have logs of Cl 40s on the ECML of the time, I wonder - I suspect with 10-11 carriages, which was more like the average load out of KX by then, you would get higher speeds out of a 40.
This is so far off topic - I'm gonna start a new thread.

This subject of "lumbering" Class 40s (my quotation) has come up before - and Bevan has also come down on Cl 40s before I think. It's obvious that these engines were overweight, but I kind of feel they weren't quite as bad as Bevan and some others make out.

Has anyone got logs of Cl 40s on faster timings and lighter loads than was usual on the WCML in the early 60s. (The timings out of Euston in those years were usually quite slack to allow for electrification work.)

A run on the GN would probably serve to prove the point either way. I suspect a 40 with ten on could get into mid-80s between York and Darlington, for example - but only a log would prove that.

Class 37s were also not famed for fast running, at least when working singly, but then their main duties was freight, except for some years on the GE Kings Lynn line. I think they did work The Master Cutler and the Cleethorpes - KX express c 1963, but then lost that run to Cl 47s. (I know they famously worked some Scottish lines pre sprinterisation, but those lines are hardly the place for speeds above 70 mph.)

 

[Cowley]

This’ll be interesting. I’ve read logs in the Railway Magazine of runs on the hillier sections of the WCML and seem to remember 40s plodding over the top of Shap with heavy loads at around 20mph. I’ll have a look through my old magazines later (I usually give them away rather than keep them though unfortunately).
It’s interesting to note the length of trains that used to be entrusted to single (and not particularly powerful) locos. There’s plenty of pictures of 31s and 37s etc with up to ten coaches running around in flatter parts of the country - compared to now with two 37s on four coaches in East Anglia (to keep up with modern timings I assume?)
Scenes like these:
Not my photos

I remember travelling on plenty of trains of 13/14 coaches being pulled by a class 45/47/50 etc in the eighties. Particularly the slow climb from a standing start at Totnes up Rattery bank heading west
I guess we just used to put up with slower acceleration on services back then did we?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Trust 70014IronDuke to kick off an interesting topic like this, I have dozens of Railway Magazines from the 1970s tucked away gathering years of dust in an awkward to get to part of the loft, no doubt bristling with practice & performance logs of the locomotives in question. Bear with me and I'll see if can locate something.

 

[Cowley]

Trust 70014IronDuke to kick off an interesting topic like this, I have dozens of Railway Magazines from the 1970s tucked away gathering years of dust in an awkward to get to part of the loft, no doubt bristling with practice & performance logs of the locomotives in question. Bear with me and I'll see if can locate something.

I was thinking back to the D200 tour in 1987 that went Exeter, can you remember what sort speed it topped Honiton Bank at?
They used to have some quite long trains on those tours.

 

[randyrippley]

Some links to start with, someone else can make sense of them though
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition14/class40.htm
http://www.class40motherlist.com/irv.html
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition24/logarchive01to24mod.htm

 

[Cowley]

Some links to start with, someone else can make sense of them though
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition14/class40.htm
http://www.class40motherlist.com/irv.html
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition24/logarchive01to24mod.htm

Good stuff. In the first link there’s a log of 40179 reaching the top of Shap at 29mph with 12 on. That’s not bad going, the loco then reaches 91 at Calthwaite on the downhill.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I was thinking back to the D200 tour in 1987 that went Exeter, can you remember what sort speed it topped Honiton Bank at?
They used to have some quite long trains on those tours.

I'd have to admit that sadly I haven't got any recollection Mr C. That was my first ever run over the L&SW Mainline and I was so busy trying to take everything in as it was a route I'd always wished to travel, how I wish now that I'd taken more notice in the performance D200 itself!

Interesting links provided by randyrippley, going to take a look at those in detail later.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Good stuff. In the first link there’s a log of 40179 reaching the top of Shap at 29mph with 12 on. That’s not bad going, the loco then reaches 91 at Calthwaite on the downhill.

Some links to start with, someone else can make sense of them though
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition14/class40.htm
http://www.class40motherlist.com/irv.html
http://locoperformance.tripod.com/edition24/logarchive01to24mod.htm

Well, some of these runs show Cl 40s could work up to the lower 80s with decent loads. There's even one close to 90 - but only with a featherweight load of 4 coaches.

I've been trying to think of runs I had behind 40s. I'm sure I had one or two on the WCML, but only on locals. I did get a Cl 40 from Birmingham once, probably in 61 - but we were diverted via Leamington Spa to Rugby (eat your hearts out, track-bashers! - I remember we passed a 70xx Castle in the GWR station at Leamington) so we surely did not get up to any high speeds. I think I changed to a D50xx at Rugby for Nothampton.

Ah! I remember we had a Clss 40 twice on EAster Sunday from Carstairs to Carlisle (it was the evening Glasgow-Manchester/Liverpool) on a shed bashing trip - but I was only 14 or 15, and never thought of doing logs.

I still think I'd like to see logs on the GN. IIRC they used Class 40s in 61/62 on some KX - Newcastle runs, including The Norseman. Someone must have timed some of these.

 

[Ash Bridge]

I did several trips York northwards on the ECML during the 70s, one as far as Edinburgh and return on a special, Newcastle on service trains and Darlington on charter service. On all those journeys they did seem short of top end and sluggish getting away especially after about 25-40 mph or so and certainly compared to Peaks, 47s etc. over the same route. Likewise I've done Stockport-Birmingham NS on a couple of occasions with 40s and obviously compared to what was then the usual traction (81,82,85 & 86s) the 40 seemed to take an eternity, I realise the above is not a lot of use as it's hard facts that are needed so I'll see if I can find something in one of those magazines. Just to quickly add, a more recent SPT-BNS journey on Crosscountry around 2000 when a class 37/4 stood in for a failed 47/8 on a 7 coach mk2 aircon set. The performance with the dead 47 in tow with absolutely dire, between Crewe and Stafford they put us on the slows with electrics flashing past us as though we were stationary. I'm sure a freightliner could shown us a clean pair of heels on that occasion!

 

[delt1c]

This’ll be interesting. I’ve read logs in the Railway Magazine of runs on the hillier sections of the WCML and seem to remember 40s plodding over the top of Shap with heavy loads at around 20mph. I’ll have a look through my old magazines later (I usually give them away rather than keep them though unfortunately).
It’s interesting to note the length of trains that used to be entrusted to single (and not particularly powerful) locos. There’s plenty of pictures of 31s and 37s etc with up to ten coaches running around in flatter parts of the country - compared to now with two 37s on four coaches in East Anglia (to keep up with modern timings I assume?)
Scenes like these:View attachment 44023
Not my photos View attachment 44024

I remember travelling on plenty of trains of 13/14 coaches being pulled by a class 45/47/50 etc in the eighties. Particularly the slow climb from a standing start at Totnes up Rattery bank heading west
I guess we just used to put up with slower acceleration on services back then did we?

the Fort William sleeper in the 1970's was combined at Queen St to form the 06.00 to Mallaig, this was usually 2 sleepers , 1 FK, 1RB, 3 TSO and a BG. This was entrusted to single 27. OK WHL doesnt have high speed running but but has some tough grades.

 

[Cowley]

the Fort William sleeper in the 1970's was combined at Queen St to form the 06.00 to Mallaig, this was usually 2 sleepers , 1 FK, 1RB, 3 TSO and a BG. This was entrusted to single 27. OK WHL doesnt have high speed running but but has some tough grades.

That’s a fair old load for a 27 on a line like that.

Going back to type 4s and maybe Iron Duke might know this: I remember reading recently on another forum that the 44s when new were actually producing more power than their nominal 2300hp.
It’d be interesting to know if anyone on here has any experience of them on passenger services?
It was also said that they were capable of quite a turn of speed when pushed.

 

[70014IronDuke]

That’s a fair old load for a 27 on a line like that.

Going back to type 4s and maybe Iron Duke might know this: I remember reading recently on another forum that the 44s when new were actually producing more power than their nominal 2300hp.

There were often rumours flying around like this about various classes. I don't think they were true. It was certainly possible to set locomotives up to produce more power when adjusting the load regulator and fuel pume settings on the load bank on test at workshops - but I don't believe it was ever done. It would have been unproffesional and would have earned a severe rollicking if discovered.
Of course, D2 was at some time fitted with an intercooler, which allowed a greater mass of charge air into the cylinders, and hence it was rated at 2,500 HP, like the 45s - at least while the intercooler was fitted. (I think it got taken out after a year or two, to make it a standard 44.)

It’d be interesting to know if anyone on here has any experience of them on passenger services?
It was also said that they were capable of quite a turn of speed when pushed.

TBH, I doubt anyone would notice much difference between a Cl 45 and a Cl 44 on most trains. I assume the field diverts etc came in at the same speeds, so there would not be any reason a Cl 44 could not reach 90 mph with a modest load of 9 or 10 MkIs - it would just take a wee bit longer than with a Cl 44.

But I agree, I'd like to see. I've never knowingly seen a Cl 44 log on passenger services. I suspect there has to be logs in the magazines aaround 1960-61 of both Cl 40s and 44s on the WCML. Maybe I saw them at the time, but being a kid, it was just a whole new universe of locomotives and railway technology. And I was far more interested in seeing red Coronations and Princess classes than the newish Peaks back then!

 

[70014IronDuke]

I did several trips York northwards on the ECML during the 70s, one as far as Edinburgh and return on a special, Newcastle on service trains and Darlington on charter service. On all those journeys they did seem short of top end and sluggish getting away especially after about 25-40 mph or so and certainly compared to Peaks, 47s etc. over the same route.

Oh, yeah! I've been behind one or two Cl 40s between Newcastle and Edinburgh on locals c 1977 - forgotten about that. But again, I don't suppose these were super tightly timed.

... Just to quickly add, a more recent SPT-BNS journey on Crosscountry around 2000 when a class 37/4 stood in for a failed 47/8 on a 7 coach mk2 aircon set. The performance with the dead 47 in tow with absolutely dire, between Crewe and Stafford they put us on the slows with electrics flashing past us as though we were stationary. I'm sure a freightliner could shown us a clean pair of heels on that occasion!

Well, with the failed 47 it would have been towing the equivalent of 10 carriages. And if it had to provide ETH, that would have knocked 300-350 hp (guess) off it's top output.

 

[Taunton]

There was a Railway Magazine log I recall, probably from the early 1970s, when the ECML was Deltics on the main diagrams and Class 47 on the rest. The timer had gone on the footplate, down from Kings Cross to Doncaster on a Deltic, which was described as easy work, then on the return, expecting a 47, in from Leeds rolled a Class 40. Must have still been pre-AC Mk 2 stock as the boiler was in use. It lost some time, but was broadly, say over the top of Stoke, about 10mph under a Class 47. Didn't seem a bad effort at all.

When the Hymeks first came out they took over the heaviest expresses on the WR, Paddington to South Wales. D7024-39 were so assigned when new, and brought 13 coach trains over the top of the climb out of the Severn Tunnel at Patchway quite easily at 60mph, which I think would have been well beyond a Class 40. The Hymeks had taken over from Kings on these duties.

Sir John Betjeman, when he did his film of the S&D in 1963, stood on Highbridge platform and watched a Warship, 2,200hp, hammer through with 13 on at what looks like the Warship maximum of 80mph. I can't see a Class 40 getting up to what Warships constantly did on this line, they just cruised at that speed most of the way. Rough ride for the crew though. You can see it here at 40 seconds in from the start.

 

[hexagon789]

I seem to recall reading that a 40 would only manage about 88 mph on level track while the 45s could do well over 90, can anyone confirm this?

 

[Ash Bridge]

Well I've been searching for at least the last hour in a freezing loft, been through nearly 60 magazines so far but there's a lot more to go yet. Anyway found this one for now which may be of some interest from sometime in 1971....

 

[hexagon789]

Well I've been searching for at least the last hour in a freezing loft, been through nearly 60 magazines so far but there's a lot more to go yet. Anyway found this one for now which may be of some interest from sometime in 1971....

92 with 11 on is pretty good.

 

[Ash Bridge]

92 with 11 on is pretty good.

It is, mind you I think that is heading down Stoke Bank at that point if anyone can confirm, although that said it appears to be well on top of its schedule at most points of the journey doesn't it?

 

[Cowley]

Well I've been searching for at least the last hour in a freezing loft, been through nearly 60 magazines so far but there's a lot more to go yet. Anyway found this one for now which may be of some interest from sometime in 1971....

That’s an excellent find. Now get back up in that loft!

 

[delt1c]

Interesting how the many people rate a loco on its Hp not its traction effort. When it comes to climbing with loads its the traction effort that is more important, this is why Inverness had an allocation of 24's and 26's.
A Britannia Pacific could outrun a 9F , but a 9F could haul loads over many of the steepest grades that a Britannia would stall with

 

[hexagon789]

That’s an excellent find. Now get back up in that loft!

Ha ha! Seconded

 

[Ash Bridge]

That’s an excellent find. Now get back up in that loft!

Ha ha! Seconded

Cruel pair!

Interesting how the many people rate a loco on its Hp not its traction effort. When it comes to climbing with loads its the traction effort that is more important, this is why Inverness had an allocation of 24's and 26's.
A Britannia Pacific could outrun a 9F , but a 9F could haul loads over many of the steepest grades that a Britannia would stall with

Fair comment there Mr D.

 

[hexagon789]

Cruel pair!

Och, there's no treasure trove quite like one's loft though!

 

[Taunton]

In 1971, York to south of Peterborough, so presumably Kings Cross. What was that schedule framed for? A 47 or a Deltic? I think there were no such 40 diagrams left by then.

 

[Ash Bridge]

Och, there's no treasure trove quite like one's loft though!

Oh absolutely! Mind you it was so cold up there today even the spiders have gone into hibernation brrr!

 

[hexagon789]

Oh absolutely! Mind you it was so cold up there today even the spiders have gone into hibernation brrr!

I know what you mean, it was that cold today I put the central heating thermostat up 5 degrees! My loft isn't too bad, the fibreglass insulation does the trick but you have to be careful not to put a foot wrong.

 

[70014IronDuke]

Oh absolutely! Mind you it was so cold up there today even the spiders have gone into hibernation brrr!

To whom much is given, much is expected.

You're clearly on a mission from God, Ash B, and hence no complaining please ......

 

[Ash Bridge]

In 1971, York to south of Peterborough, so presumably Kings Cross. What was that schedule framed for? A 47 or a Deltic? I think there were no such 40 diagrams left by then.

I've just had chance to read a bit more. The train in question was the 11:00 from Edinburgh-Kings Cross (shame they didn't record the run to York also) I get the impression it may have been booked for a 47 but can't quite ascertain. Anyway here's several more logs covering the same stretch to compare the performance with class 47, 55 & 46

 

[hexagon789]

I've just had chance to read a bit more. The train in question was the 11:00 from Edinburgh-Kings Cross (shame they didn't record the run to York also) I get the impression it may have been booked for a 47 but can't quite ascertain. Anyway here's several more logs covering the same stretch to compare the performance with class 47, 55 & 46

106 out of that Deltic! Can just imagine the sound of those 3,300 horses chomping at the bit!

 

[Ash Bridge]

To whom much is given, much is expected.

You're clearly on a mission from God, Ash B, and hence no complaining please ......

I'm sorry but I hold you wholly responsible IronDuke....starting this type of thread indeed!