Petition asking for SouthEastern to be stripped of franchise

[May]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114277

Remove the rail franchise from South Eastern

South Eastern consistently let down their paying customers, cancelling trains strategically so they don't have to pay refunds, whilst making £12.8m in profit. Their customer service is beyond useless and the people of the South East have suffered for long enough.

 

[ScotGG]

Petitions achieve very little. If everyone who signed contacted their MP instead they'd achieve more, and also if they were knowledgable about the issues. Many aren't which doesn't help.

 

[mbreckers]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114277

And what exactly are you suggesting replace South Eastern?

 

[Morgsie]

A petition requires 100,000 signatures for the Commons Backbench Business Committee to consider whether it should be debate in the Commons. It makes more sense for those disgruntled passengers to contact their MP directly

IF Southeastern lose the Franchise then what happens, will DOR operate it on interim basis til 2018 when that Franchise is up again although the competition for the next Southeastern Franchise starts in November this year?

 

[Mintona]

I think a lot of people don't really get that Southeastern do a pretty good job on probably the hardest franchise to operate in this country.

 

[HMS Ark Royal]

Cancel trains strategically...?

What is that supposed to mean?

 

[Mintona]

Cancel trains strategically...?

What is that supposed to mean?

I think it's supposed to mean missing stops so trains have a chance of starting their next working on time. Of course, this is all done from a customer service point of view for the 'greater good', but Southeastern passengers seem to think it is all about profits. Despite the fact that once a train misses a stop it fails PPM anyway.

 

[185143]

Cancel trains strategically...?

What is that supposed to mean?

I think it's supposed to mean missing stops so trains have a chance of starting their next working on time. Of course, this is all done from a customer service point of view for the 'greater good', but Southeastern passengers seem to think it is all about profits. Despite the fact that once a train misses a stop it fails PPM anyway.

I took it as ensuring passengers weren't 30 minutes delayed so they dont have to pay compensation?

 

[matt_world2004]

Cancel trains strategically...?

What is that supposed to mean?

I think it means doing scheduled cancellations during anticipated bad weather so it doesn't effect its performance metrics .however that means that if the weather is better than expected the train still doesn't run.

 

[Mintona]

I took it as ensuring passengers weren't 30 minutes delayed so they dont have to pay compensation?

That doesn't happen.

 

[306024]

I think it's supposed to mean missing stops so trains have a chance of starting their next working on time. Of course, this is all done from a customer service point of view for the 'greater good', but Southeastern passengers seem to think it is all about profits. Despite the fact that once a train misses a stop it fails PPM anyway.

Standard procedure for recovering the service that all commuter type TOCs do. As the service is generally frequent there is usually another train behind calling at the missed stops. This is precisely what Southeastern did on Saturday at Ashford on the high speed route after an obstruction on the line and was the correct thing to do to minimise overall disruption.

I took it as ensuring passengers weren't 30 minutes delayed so they dont have to pay compensation?

When the job goes up the wall the last thing Control and signallers are concerned with is trying to ensure a train is only 29 minutes late rather than 30. That's one of the worst conspiracy theories and as already said simply doesn't happen.

I think it means doing scheduled cancellations during anticipated bad weather so it doesn't effect its performance metrics .however that means that if the weather is better than expected the train still doesn't run.

This is the no win situation. Do nothing and you get the situation South West Trains found themselves in (through no fault of their own) last week. Over react and you are equally criticised. Southeastern is one of the most complex operations in the country, with Cannon St and Charing Cross workings extremely tight, so for the greater good thinning the service sometimes is necessary.

And all this is under normal operation. Having taken a trip out of Charing Cross on Saturday to see all the London Bridge work it is remarkable they can offer a service at all given the scale of the infrastructure changes. Take a ride to see it, I found it fascinating. Then the sea wall is damaged at Dover leading to more very short notice alterations. The bus service between Folkestone West and Dover was working fine and gave me a great view of Folkestone you don't get from the train, and a good view of Dover castle on the approach to Dover.

So credit to all Southeastern staff in difficult times. As for signing the petition, I guess you can work out for yourself where I'd put it.

 

[NSEFAN]

If the southeastern routes are run anything like the southern ones, then I can see why the service is unreliable. It is indeed a challenging franchise to run, what with the London bridge work currently taking place. The government is keen to obtain "value for money", meaning the service will be run with the bare minimum provision of staff and rolling stock. If passengers want a better service then they will have to pay for it, because the government won't let itself be seen to increase subsidy.

 

[Kentish Paul]

I think a lot of people don't really get that Southeastern do a pretty good job on probably the hardest franchise to operate in this country.

Well said. I've recently finished commuting to London and can only marvel that Southeastern manage to do what they do. I commuted from 1994 and to see Cannon St dispatching a train every 2 mins in the evening peak was something to behold.

 

[ComUtoR]

£12.8m profit..

I was going to sign it but strategically failing to mention it is a pre tax profit is beyond useless.

Maybe it was deliberate

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114277

Has there ever been a precedent for such a matter as this, based on a petitition.

I am sure that the legal teams acting for South Eastern would have a field day in court arguing numerous points of law that are bound to so arise.

 

[hwl]

The biggest problem with SE improving is probably DfT (i.e. more stock to cope with passenger growth and London Bridge rebuilding, gating etc.)
DOR would unlikely be able to make much difference unless the purse strings were magically opened and subsidy increased. Even minimal DOR management would also cost several million a year to run.

MPs and getting them to complain to DfT is the route to improvements and the timing is ideal to help get the next franchise spec right.

 

[ainsworth74]

Has there ever been a precedent for such a matter as this. I am sure that the legal teams acting for South Eastern would have a field day in court arguing numerous points of law that are bound to so arise.

Connex South Eastern were stripped of this very same franchise back in 2003 due to poor financial management so there certainly is a precedent for franchisee to be stripped of their franchise. But, the only example I can think of was down to financial mismanagement not due to commuter disgruntlement.

 

[hwl]

Connex South Eastern were stripped of this very same franchise back in 2003 due to poor financial management so there certainly is a precedent for franchisee to be stripped of their franchise. But, the only example I can think of was down to financial mismanagement not due to commuter disgruntlement.

There was plenty of commuter disgruntlement too!

 

[ainsworth74]

There was plenty of commuter disgruntlement too!

Indeed but if they'd handled their money properly then that alone would have been unlikely to see them lose the franchise just as modern day SouthEastern are unlikely to lose their franchise just because commuters don't like them.

 

[ComUtoR]

There was plenty of commuter disgruntlement too!

Since then how many franchises has there been ? The disgruntlement hasn't changed but the franchise has. Govia are the current franchise holders and whoever takes over in 2018 (if they make it) will have the same disgruntled commuters with the same complaints calling for heads to roll.

 

[Oswyntail]

There was plenty of commuter disgruntlement too!

'Twas ever thus, and always will be. The average commuter wants nothing more than a scapegoat, not for their poor travels, but for the very fact that they have to travel to work and back. The service they receive is intensive and generally good enough. Anyone who complains that their regular train is the 08:05 and it is frequently late or cancelled is probably not aware that that makes them look daft. For this they pay large sums, agreed, but that is also for the privilege of living in a comfortable location of their choice. It is not the railway's fault that they cannot afford similar living standards nearer to work. And their season tickets are often the most heavily discounted tickets you can find, however much they cost.
Perhaps TOCs should include being a scapegoat in their aims and objectives

 

[ainsworth74]

Perhaps TOCs should include being a scapegoat in their aims and objectives

It could be a contribution to social well-being?

 

[Tim R-T-C]

Funny that all of the businessmen travelling into London, baulk at the idea of a private company making some profit (and not really that much given the scale of the company involved).

I would love for some of them to come up to Yorkshire, on 1tph routes, with Pacers, in rush-hour and then complain because SE cancel a train and they have to wait five minutes for the next.

 

[WelshBluebird]

'Twas ever thus, and always will be. The average commuter wants nothing more than a scapegoat, not for their poor travels, but for the very fact that they have to travel to work and back. The service they receive is intensive and generally good enough. Anyone who complains that their regular train is the 08:05 and it is frequently late or cancelled is probably not aware that that makes them look daft. For this they pay large sums, agreed, but that is also for the privilege of living in a comfortable location of their choice. It is not the railway's fault that they cannot afford similar living standards nearer to work. And their season tickets are often the most heavily discounted tickets you can find, however much they cost.
Perhaps TOCs should include being a scapegoat in their aims and objectives

In London that may be true, but commuting in some other parts of the country is a different beast. Most places do not have services that are as frequent, so one train being cancelled is a big deal as the next one may not be due for quite a while!

 

[Oswyntail]

In London that may be true, but commuting in some other parts of the country is a different beast. Most places do not have services that are as frequent, so one train being cancelled is a big deal as the next one may not be due for quite a while!

Agreed

 

[Chapeltom]

I struggle to have any sympathy whatsoever with anyone commuting in most of the South East of the UK into London. I remember commuting to a station just outside Liverpool from a station on the Hope Valley Line. Sometimes I didn't need to be there till gone midday and trains were at 0955, 1055, 1255 and 1455 after the 0832 to Manchester, which was useless given I would almost certainly miss the 0916 stopper out of Oxford Road anyway! They were train times when I needed to plan my day around which trains I caught, coming back in the afternoon, trains at 1245, 1445, 1545 out of Manchester too.

I didn't mind it, I accepted the train times. I lived in a rural area with an infrequent service in the day, on the Buxton line the service is hourly outside of peak hours. For this you need to plan your time round which train you can catch, I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone who moans when the service is turn up and go, e.g. every 15 minutes or better.

A lot of commuters do not want to understand how things work, think "signal failure" is an excuse. They are people just looking for something to complain about. Oh your train got delayed by 10 minutes and it does so regularly because you live in on one of the most congested parts of the railway, boo hoo! Get a grip.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Oh your train got delayed by 10 minutes and it does so regularly because you live in on one of the most congested parts of the railway, boo hoo! Get a grip.

I agree with the rest of your post but I do disagree with this bit.
If a service is regularly 10 minutes late then surely that suggests something really isn't right? Even if it is the timetable itself that needs to be changed to reflect reality. Of course doing that won't be popular either! But I do think if a service is so regularly late the timetable doesn't reflect reality then something needs to be changed so it does!

 

[pemma]

Have Southeastern broken their franchise agreement opposed to providing a poor service? If not they won't be stripped of it.

 

[Chapeltom]

I agree with the rest of your post but I do disagree with this bit.
If a service is regularly 10 minutes late then surely that suggests something really isn't right? Even if it is the timetable itself that needs to be changed to reflect reality. Of course doing that won't be popular either! But I do think if a service is so regularly late the timetable doesn't reflect reality then something needs to be changed so it does!

Perhaps I should edit that, because not every service is delayed. I'm guilty of over exaggeration. The vast majority of trains arrive on time, a train 10 minutes late is not as regular as some commuters make out.

I remember on my lengthy commute, I was delayed by an hour on just one occasion on over 250 journeys. That was nothing to do with EMT or Northern, something just went wrong that day. I was also forced to abandon my afternoon journey, to take the 1255 once because of a broken down train. I got on, the train got to New Mills, went back to Chinley to take a different route and that was that. I went home. I think I had probably 5-6 journeys where I had 15 minute delay or more and that was it, in 250 journeys! Not that bad. I actually enjoyed my commute.

 

[gtr driver]

I struggle to have any sympathy whatsoever with anyone commuting in most of the South East of the UK into London. I remember commuting to a station just outside Liverpool from a station on the Hope Valley Line. Sometimes I didn't need to be there till gone midday and trains were at 0955, 1055, 1255 and 1455 after the 0832 to Manchester, which was useless given I would almost certainly miss the 0916 stopper out of Oxford Road anyway! They were train times when I needed to plan my day around which trains I caught, coming back in the afternoon, trains at 1245, 1445, 1545 out of Manchester too.

I didn't mind it, I accepted the train times. I lived in a rural area with an infrequent service in the day, on the Buxton line the service is hourly outside of peak hours. For this you need to plan your time round which train you can catch, I have absolutely no sympathy with anyone who moans when the service is turn up and go, e.g. every 15 minutes or better.

A lot of commuters do not want to understand how things work, think "signal failure" is an excuse. They are people just looking for something to complain about. Oh your train got delayed by 10 minutes and it does so regularly because you live in on one of the most congested parts of the railway, boo hoo! Get a grip.

I partly agree, but I would ask you to remember that South Eastern serves SE London, which has some fairly deprived areas thus making availability of work in town crucial, and no real alternative to SE services for that commute. No tubes to speak of, and buses that take so long to reach town, if indeed they reach town at all, that they become unusable if you are not to add an hour each way to your journey. The frequencies are also not really turn up and go in SE area as they tend to serve different termini and do not compare to the tube at all. As they are of this lower frequency every train tends to be rammed and a cancellation really does make a big difference. Also don't forget the sheer numbers involved in London centric commuting. London and the south east is different to other cities, it can't really be compared to a rural timetable.