Petition for Guards

[cjmillsnun]

Is there a way to amend so that the other names for guards could be added.
SWT passengers will know the term guard but other TOCs use Train Manager, conductor or senior conductor. With all of those terms people may have a better understanding.

 

[northwichcat]

That's not quite true is it....?! Many Guards may choose not to conduct revenue duties if they feel it is likely to cause significant issues, but that doesn't mean they lock themselves away and don't patrol the train.

I'm afraid it is true on most Northern services. If you're on a Northern 150 and no ticket inspection is made and no wheelchair passenger is on board there's a 99.9% chance you won't see the guard except on the platform when you are boarding and alighting.

 

[BestWestern]

I'm afraid it is true on most Northern services. If you're on a Northern 150 and no ticket inspection is made and no wheelchair passenger is on board there's a 99.9% chance you won't see the guard except on the platform when you are boarding and alighting.

I agree that stinks, but of course it is a management issue. Some Guards are lazy, true enough, and they don't help themselves. It annoys me, as a Guard who believes our role should be retained (with good reason). I wouldn't criticise any passenger who felt justified in reporting such behaviour.

When done properly, however, the current role of the Guard s well placed to encompass security, safety and revenue collection. I see no need for change, and the only reason the TOCs want change is to save money, not for any reason that will benefit passengers.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I'm afraid it is true on most Northern services. If you're on a Northern 150 and no ticket inspection is made and no wheelchair passenger is on board there's a 99.9% chance you won't see the guard except on the platform when you are boarding and alighting.

Well I am sorry JCollins but that is an out and out lie, yes some services we don't and for very good reasons. Stick to facts and not your limited experience.

 

[northwichcat]

Well I am sorry JCollins but that is an out and out lie, yes some services we don't and for very good reasons. Stick to facts and not your limited experience.

Well put it this way ANorthernGuard I can tell you each type of instance a guard has come through the train on a Northern Rail service I've been on since 2004 and it's only happened in the following situations:
1. To do a ticket check/offer tickets for sale
2. To open the doors
3. To return to a passenger who asked the guard a query when he/she was already passing through for a different purpose
4. (On lines with request stops) to ask if anyone wants the request stop
5. (On a c.180 only) to ask if any passengers are alighting at the next station which has a short platform.
6. To deal with a wheelchair passenger
7. To try and solve a problem with a set of doors not opening or closing properly
8. To communicate with the driver
9. To talk to someone they know who is travelling on the service

Unlike other operators I don't ever recall after a delay a Northern guard coming through to train specifically to help passengers who may miss their intended connections as a result of the delay, even though if they do come through to do a ticket inspection they will help on request (hence number 3 in my list.) That is despite the number of journeys I've made with Northern being substantially more than journeys with other operators.

I would say, however, I have encountered a couple of conductors who focus on offering tickets for sale when walking down the train opposed to attempting to do full ticket inspections between each and every station and they finish up being a much more visible presence and giving passengers more opportunities to talk to them.

Given you say you work the Mid-Cheshire line and that you strongly disagreed with my previous statement how many times per journey do you normally walk from the front to the back of the train (or unit you are working) when not attempting to sell/inspect tickets?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Well put it this way ANorthernGuard I can tell you each type of instance a guard has come through the train on a Northern Rail service I've been on since 2004 and it's only happened in the following situations:
1. To do a ticket check/offer tickets for sale
2. To open the doors
3. To return to a passenger who asked the guard a query when he/she was already passing through for a different purpose
4. (On lines with request stops) to ask if anyone wants the request stop
5. (On a c.180 only) to ask if any passengers are alighting at the next station which has a short platform.
6. To deal with a wheelchair passenger
7. To try and solve a problem with a set of doors not opening or closing properly
8. To communicate with the driver
9. To talk to someone they know who is travelling on the service

Unlike other operators I don't ever recall after a delay a Northern guard coming through to train specifically to help passengers who may miss their intended connections as a result of the delay, even though if they do come through to do a ticket inspection they will help on request (hence number 3 in my list.) That is despite the number of journeys I've made with Northern being substantially more than journeys with other operators.

I would say, however, I have encountered a couple of conductors who focus on offering tickets for sale when walking down the train opposed to attempting to do full ticket inspections between each and every station and they finish up being a much more visible presence and giving passengers more opportunities to talk to them.

Given you say you work the Mid-Cheshire line and that you strongly disagreed with my previous statement how many times per journey do you normally walk from the front to the back of the train (or unit you are working) when not attempting to sell/inspect tickets?

1st go out after Picc Than after Stockport, Altrincham, Knutsford, Northwich and Mouldsworth Most of us do the same. We help out when needed throughout the journey as you very well know. Yes a "Minority" don't but the Majority most certainly do so yes I am calling you outright Liar and will stand by that as any official figures will back me up, Even John wouldn't say such a thing as you say. He may be extremely keen as the MCRUA is his baby but he also knows what difficulties guards face, so get some facts and come back to the discussion and prove what you are saying.

 

[northwichcat]

1st go out after Picc Than after Stockport, Altrincham, Knutsford, Northwich and Mouldsworth Most of us do the same.

...

yes I am calling you outright Liar

You've completely misunderstood or telling a big lie and calling me a liar.

I'm sure no guard has ever done a ticket inspection after leaving Piccadilly and then walked to the front on a separate occasion before arriving at Stockport on any service I've been on (Northern or not.) If you referring to when you do ticket inspections then you've missed the point completely and made an idiot of yourself in the process.

What I said was

If you're on a Northern 150 and no ticket inspection is made and no wheelchair passenger is on board there's a 99.9% chance you won't see the guard

So if a passenger both boards and alights between when you do ticket inspections when will they see you?

 

[ANorthernGuard]

The point is quite simply is its all part of one thing Tickets/Customer Service/Visibilty/Security is all intertwined into one role even late at night when lets say I feel "uncomfortable" I will still walk through so will the majority of guards and even when I have a faulty ticket machine I will still walk through giving what info I can. The Guards role is a numerous one. You don't just imply you state at fact that guards only come out to do tickets and even thats a rarity. The amount of times I make myself "visible" during disruption cannot be concluded as I am always out during disruption anyway (hence quite a lot of Twitter praise etc. For myself and my colleagues) your attitude towards Northern is quite insulting to be fair. Considering what we have to work with we do a damn fine job shame a minority like to put unsubstantiated accusations on a forum quite easily because they know there is no comeback. I am sure this convo will give John a good laugh as I know he has respect and genuinely cares for his line you on the other hand well I will leave that up to the imaginations of the other forum members!

 

[trainophile]

I am now informed that my MP will write to "The Minister" - presumably Mr McLoughlin - about this matter. Let's hope the relevant Minister and his department get inundated with similar communications!

 

[exile]

Well I am sorry JCollins but that is an out and out lie, yes some services we don't and for very good reasons. Stick to facts and not your limited experience.

Since I used Northern trains every day for 25 years maybe I can shed some light on this?

During the day, guards would patrol the train a couple of times per journey except

- when the train was crowded
- after about 8pm

 

[40129]

I agree that stinks, but of course it is a management issue. Some Guards are lazy, true enough, and they don't help themselves. It annoys me, as a Guard who believes our role should be retained (with good reason). I wouldn't criticise any passenger who felt justified in reporting such behaviour.

When done properly, however, the current role of the Guard s well placed to encompass security, safety and revenue collection. I see no need for change, and the only reason the TOCs want change is to save money, not for any reason that will benefit passengers.

Agree 100% with this.

Just to add there are some trains e.g. cl-323, where the lack of saloon door control panels really don't help guards fully perform their role.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Since I used Northern trains every day for 25 years maybe I can shed some light on this?

During the day, guards would patrol the train a couple of times per journey except

- when the train was crowded
- after about 8pm

certain routes (Hadfields for instance some of the older hands and female conductors won't, especially on weekends) however that is getting less and less as more pressure is put on the newer conductors.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Agree 100% with this.

Just to add there are some trains e.g. cl-323, where the lack of saloon door control panels really don't help guards fully perform their role.

Fine on routes like Crewe/Stoke almost impossible on Hadfields just due to the time limitations between stops.

 

[northwichcat]

The point is quite simply is its all part of one thing Tickets/Customer Service/Visibilty/Security is all intertwined into one role even late at night when lets say I feel "uncomfortable" I will still walk through so will the majority of guards and even when I have a faulty ticket machine I will still walk through giving what info I can. The Guards role is a numerous one. You don't just imply you state at fact that guards only come out to do tickets and even thats a rarity.

I never said that ticket checking was a rarity. In fact some focus on it too much and consequently delay the train by not getting back to do the doors in time. As you say you've got more than one role and the right balance needs to be met. It's understandable some guards feel there isn't time between all stations to do a ticket inspection but simply walking up and down the train instead of returning to the cab can make a difference. Fairly recently an elderly lady tried to use the toilet on an ex-FNW 150 but the door wouldn't work, when the guard appeared he managed to do something that sorted the problem but the elderly lady had to wait around 10 minutes before she could find a member of staff and she had ambled up and down the train a few times either looking for someone or looking for another toilet.

When there is no ticket inspection I don't usually know exactly why that is. However, like I've said I've never seen a Northern guard walk up and down the train without a specific purpose.

I am sure this convo will give John a good laugh as I know he has respect and genuinely cares for his line you on the other hand well I will leave that up to the imaginations of the other forum members!

You need to remember there are a diverse range of opinions within RUGs. John's opinion is the existing Manchester-Chester services should continue to serve Mobberley and Ashley once the additional Greenbank only service is introduced. Others not only think the Manchester-Chester service should be a semi-fast but also think the very small villages should only get 1tph even at peak times so that there are semi-fasts available for commuters from the larger places and no it wasn't me who originally suggested that.

As the RUG almost certainly contains people who vote for all the political parties, some are likely going to be more keen on the RMT favoured solutions than others.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Just to add there are some trains e.g. cl-323, where the lack of saloon door control panels really don't help guards fully perform their role.

I thought the 323s were the one type of train Northern Rail West have where the conductor can release the doors from the middle.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

certain routes (Hadfields for instance some of the older hands and female conductors won't, especially on weekends) however that is getting less and less as more pressure is put on the newer conductors.

From my experience the female conductors and the male conductors under around 35 are the ones who are more likely to do a ticket inspection whatever the time is. One young conductor must have done very well for commission on a late Mid-Cheshire service without encountering the drunks who are sometimes on the late services.

 

[313103]

When there is no ticket inspection I don't usually know exactly why that is. However, like I've said I've never seen a Northern guard walk up and down the train without a specific purpose.

Seems everyone is at a lost as what your getting at. You dont seem to be happy that Guards go through and do ticket checks and your not happy that Guards dont go through and do nothing!.

If i might add i was once a Guard, and when new stock was delivered i as the senior Rep in the company went along the idea of moving the Guards out of the rear cab and spend time in the train therefore giving passengers reassurance and information and that was from first train to last train ( well it was when i worked them). Not all Guards did this (all the time) and some Guards did only this.

Yet the fonder mental point is that despite the effort that i, my local reps had put into this to make it work, it was never enough to keep the Guards. Just two years after the introduction of the new trains the guards were unceremoniously dumped.

A genuine question to you Jcollins why would/do you want to see the Guards walking through the train with no specific reason to do so?

 

[8J]

I thought the 323s were the one type of train Northern Rail West have where the conductor can release the doors from the middle.

Shows how much he knows. What about 319's and 158's? Seriously you have a strange opinion/vendetta against northern guards! The NRPS scores don't lie - they highly praised northern guards!

 

[northwichcat]

Shows how much he knows. What about 319's and 158's?

With the 319s constantly dropping like flies I haven't had many opportunities to go on them.

Is it really worth making a fuss about 158s when the only booked working on Northern Rail West routes is one or two late workings on Blackpool-Victoria, when even ANorthernGuard seems to accept on late workings that guards aren't always visible? Blackpool-York and Victoria-Leeds being former RRNE routes.

 

[northwichcat]

A genuine question to you Jcollins why would/do you want to see the Guards walking through the train with no specific reason to do so?

A number of reasons have already been detailed in this thread.

Having a visible staff presence helps make passengers feel more secure, as mentioned in the petition wording.

I mentioned an incident of where a guard was able to sort a problem with the toilet door which allowed an elderly lady to then use the facility. Had the guard made more routine trips through the train that perhaps would have sorted the problem sooner.

There was another incident on a train I was on where a fare evader was not only hiding in the toilet but was smoking an illegal substance in the toilet. Again the guard sorted this but only after a passenger went to seek out the guard to raise the concern.

The more times the conductor passes the toilet the more likely they are more likely to spot if any suspicious activity is going on in there. I've been on trains where the guard has caught fare evaders hiding in the toilet, whil on others someone goes in to the toilet as soon as they board and stays in there until they alight but the guard doesn't come through and on some occasions the guard has wrongly thought someone has been hiding in there when they have a ticket and have been using the facilities.

Even a minor delay can cause a passenger to miss their connection and getting information about alternative arrangements before they alight can help get them to their destination quicker. For instance, a passenger travelling from Northwich to Hull might not be aware that if they miss the next direct service to Hull from Piccadilly, that it can be faster to get the next available service to Leeds and to change there. While if they queue up at the information window at Piccadilly they may miss the next available service to Leeds. Do some passengers know that guards have information at their fingertips relating to train running information and platform information if the guard doesn't ask passengers if they require it? I've been on TPE services where the conductor has asked to see my ticket and then told me the platform number for my connecting service, when I haven't even asked for it. On Northern services when I'm asked for my ticket the conductor has never done that.

What a lot of people are missing is that if parliament discusses this issue then MPs will be discussing alternative ways of keeping passengers safe on late services and may or may not conclude a guard with a list of various on board duties is the best way of achieving that.

 

[wellwhatitis]

I am embarressed by some of these posts on here. No the wording isnt brilliant but it is obvious what the petition is for. Judy when was the last time you were on a last train out of Knutsford? If we had a bit of security we would go out more often. I really do hate it when opinions have no basis in real life.

Personally I don't get this 'not going out on lates' thing. I work all my trains on lates and to date have had very few problems. I take just as much revenue (or more on occasion) on lates as many early shifts, as ticket offices are generally closed. I don't recognise this needing to be locked in the cab thing, and find that most people are happier to see the guard on late trains than the grumpy buggers who object to your mere existence at 7 in the morning.

And before anyone tells me I must work in some Utopian backwater, no this is the urban West Midlands.

 

[northwichcat]

Personally I don't get this 'not going out on lates' thing. I work all my trains on lates and to date have had very few problems. I take just as much revenue (or more on occasion) on lates as many early shifts, as ticket offices are generally closed. I don't recognise this needing to be locked in the cab thing, and find that most people are happier to see the guard on late trains than the grumpy buggers who object to your mere existence at 7 in the morning.

And before anyone tells me I must work in some Utopian backwater, no this is the urban West Midlands.

ANorthernGuard mentions the last train to Knutsford, yet the only incidents I've heard about on trains where BTP have got involved are on the services around school/college finishing time. Although, I do recall the last train once being cancelled due to safety concerns as around 300 people tried to cram on to a 2 car Pacer after a special event and apparently the guard got stuck in the rear cab as so many people had crammed on the cab wouldn't open but you argue that Northern's planning was at fault there not the passengers.

I don't know what he'd make of the late Crewe-Liverpool trains where there have been numerous incidents where BTP have got involved and BTP now provide a regular presence on the late services with an alcohol ban being in place, if he thinks the last train to Knutsford is bad.

 

[323235]

Love the cheeky way people speak on here, like others are really stupid :roll:. Anyway, here are the figures. Starting salary of a police officer 16k, conductor 17k. After training 22k (approx) for the conductor, plus ticket commission, and 21k for the police officer, but it does rise over the years. Police Community Support Officers don't have such a high salary after a few years. So, assuming I can count, yes, I think we would get a resonable number of officers from the amount spent on guards. Of course, what i propose is a new role - officer with guards training, so presumably it could get its own pay scale.
You have a good point, more crime being processed would reduce visability. But the point is that a DOO train does not need a police officer, nor ticket inspector, a train with a guard does require that member of staff. If more crimes were being processed, that is a good thing - hopefully it would reduce crime over time. Who knows if it would work, but we need to be thinking of options.

Is it really that low the pay for a Guard or BTP office ?

 

[northwichcat]

Is it really that low the pay for a Guard or BTP office ?

Northern are currently advertising a vacancy for a conductor at Buxton who will get up to around £25k after 3 month training period plus the below incentives:

· Free Travel on Northern services – for you and your family*
· 75% discount on all other Train Operating Companies leisure services*
· Final Salary Pension Scheme (where we pay one and a half times the amount you contribute!)
· A generous holiday entitlement
· Maternity and Paternity Benefits – above the statutory minimum
· Childcare voucher scheme*
· Full uniform for frontline facing roles
· High Street store discounts
· 20% off many tourist attractions in the UK.
· Gym membership discounts
· Employee Assistance Programme – operating 24/7, giving a wide range of advice, support and useful information for employees
· And many more!

It's also based on a 35 hour week so given the average working week is 37.5 hours, it's effectively £27k pro-rata.

I can't find any local BTP Officer vacancies but a London based one currently being advertised has a salary of up to £25.5k and £2.5k of that is a London allowance, so presumably outside London they don't get above £23k.

EDIT: Just found BTP Officers outside of London get free leisure travel on rail services BUT only on journeys of 8 miles or less, in London it's 70 miles. Also if you are a member of the BNP or similar your application would be rejected and if you have tattoos it could lead to your application being rejected depending on the type and prominence of the tattoo.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

ANorthernGuard mentions the last train to Knutsford, yet the only incidents I've heard about on trains where BTP have got involved are on the services around school/college finishing time. Although, I do recall the last train once being cancelled due to safety concerns as around 300 people tried to cram on to a 2 car Pacer after a special event and apparently the guard got stuck in the rear cab as so many people had crammed on the cab wouldn't open but you argue that Northern's planning was at fault there not the passengers.

I don't know what he'd make of the late Crewe-Liverpool trains where there have been numerous incidents where BTP have got involved and BTP now provide a regular presence on the late services with an alcohol ban being in place, if he thinks the last train to Knutsford is bad.

When was the last train you had to call BTP to? Even at Piccadilly they can be "unavailable" and to put it bluntly we have many problems on that line always have BUT there is very very rarely any BTP anywhere near to deal with it. Most of the trouble we have is around Northwich/Knutsford/Altrincham. Guards and passengers have been assaulted because of a minority of well to do idiots usually coming back from Chester Races. JC you really have no idea what happens on late trains either that or you are very blinkered and only see what you want to see.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

· Full uniform for frontline facing roles
· High Street store discounts
· 20% off many tourist attractions in the UK.
· Gym membership discounts
· Employee Assistance Programme – operating 24/7, giving a wide range of advice, support and useful information for employees
· And many more!

These "discounts" are available anywhere there is nt "Many more" either but I will say the Employee Assistance Program can be very good but i do have a feeling every TOC has something similar. Of course the advertisement does not mention starting at 4am one week and finishing at 02.10 the next or dealing with abuse virtually everyday but thats OK then.

 

[northwichcat]

Guards and passengers have been assaulted because of a minority of well to do idiots usually coming back from Chester Races.
...
JC you really have no idea what happens on late trains either that or you are very blinkered and only see what you want to see.

I accept you get rowdy drunks on late trains but it doesn't happen on every late train on every day of the week. Another poster suggested most Northern guards stay in the cab after around 8pm. Yet I've been on Mid-Cheshire services after 8pm where the passengers have been quieter than people in working in a Library and like I've already said I've seen some guards have do revenue duties on late services not only problem free but collecting quite a lot of revenue in the process.

Chester racecourse doesn't have regular events and the people who travel by train to Chester races are generally people with a lot of money who wouldn't normally travel by train. An average person going to Chester races would run out of money long before they get very intoxicated due to how expensive it is.

Of course the advertisement does not mention starting at 4am one week and finishing at 02.10 the next or dealing with abuse virtually everyday but thats OK then.

Those are the incentives on top of the salary not the job description.

These "discounts" are available anywhere

Care to elaborate? I (and probably a number of other non-rail employees who post on here) don't get any employee high street discounts so how would we get the same ones if they are available anywhere.

 

[TheEdge]

I accept you get rowdy drunks on late trains but it doesn't happen on every late train on every day of the week. Another poster suggested most Northern guards stay in the cab after around 8pm. Yet I've been on Mid-Cheshire services after 8pm where the passengers have been quieter than people in working in a Library and like I've already said I've seen some guards have do revenue duties on late services not only problem free but collecting quite a lot of revenue in the process.

Chester racecourse doesn't have regular events and the people who travel by train to Chester races are generally people with a lot of money who wouldn't normally travel by train. An average person going to Chester races would run out of money long before they get very intoxicated due to how expensive it is.

As someone else has said you really are only seeing what you want to see. I deal with passengers going to and from Newmarket races on occasion and I can confirm these normal race goers are quite definitely drunk as the worst a Saturday night can provide. Guards will tend to go through late at night, I cannot believe that an entire TOC across the board refuses to go out after 8pm. If nothing else group tickets of people going out on a Friday and Saturday can be worth several hundred!

Those are the incentives on top of the salary not the job description.

Yes, but its one thing showing off all the incentives traincrew can get for your purposes and then entirely disregarding there is a damn pile of horrbile rough that comes with the smooth.

Care to elaborate? I (and probably a number of other non-rail employees who post on here) don't get any employee high street discounts so how would we get the same ones if they are available anywhere.

I've worked for several employers over the years that offer things like this. I've even worked for employment agencies that offered them! Its most definitely not a railway specific thing. And quite a few of the discounts are just links to publicly available offers and coupons.

 

[northwichcat]

As someone else has said you really are only seeing what you want to see. I deal with passengers going to and from Newmarket races on occasion and I can confirm these normal race goers are quite definitely drunk as the worst a Saturday night can provide. Guards will tend to go through late at night, I cannot believe that an entire TOC across the board refuses to go out after 8pm. If nothing else group tickets of people going out on a Friday and Saturday can be worth several hundred!

How many race days are there at Chester a year? Somewhere between 10 and 20 I think, so Northern are running services at least 340 days a year where there are no races. Therefore, saying race day travellers are a problem is no excuse for any regular non-appearances by the guards.

Like I've said already and other people have said before it's mainly the experienced male guards who most actively avoid being visible on late services and some of the younger ones do revenue and do very well in takings without encountering any problems.

Yes, but its one thing showing off all the incentives traincrew can get for your purposes and then entirely disregarding there is a damn pile of horrbile rough that comes with the smooth.

Earlier up the thread someone said was that a guard salary really only £17k, so I quoted what a current Northern advert says they get after 3 months training, which is a lot more than £17k. It's worth remembering some people spend thousands of pounds a year on rail travel and yet for guards (and other rail staff) there's free travel provision so that adds a lot of value to the TOC's employees contracts.

I've worked for several employers over the years that offer things like this. I've even worked for employment agencies that offered them! Its most definitely not a railway specific thing. And quite a few of the discounts are just links to publicly available offers and coupons.

The way ANorthernGuard worded it was that it's no incentive because there are available everywhere but many people don't get them unless they are all publicly available offers and coupons.

 

[bnm]

Unlikely this petition will even reach the 10,000 mark. Snowball's chance in hell getting to 100,000.

Poorly worded and confused logic. Not signed.

 

[TheEdge]

How many race days are there at Chester a year? Somewhere between 10 and 20 I think, so Northern are running services at least 340 days a year where there are no races. Therefore, saying race day travellers are a problem is no excuse for any regular non-appearances by the guards.

Like I've said already and other people have said before it's mainly the experienced male guards who most actively avoid being visible on late services and some of the younger ones do revenue and do very well in takings without encountering any problems.

So all Northern services after 8pm has now become only services with one particular group of guards. Any advances on that or are you sticking with that one? To be brutally honest when I am out there on a Saturday night I have two things at the front of my mind. Safety, the train's, and mine. If I don't believe going through the train is safe for me (and trust me, when groups of 20 somethings keep grabbing at you and screaming at you it doesn't feel it) then I have no issues no doing so. I'll concentrate on the safety of the train, if that means I won't be doing revenue then so be it. I am still available however and am not locked away by any means.

Earlier up the thread someone said was that a guard salary really only £17k, so I quoted what a current Northern advert says they get after 3 months training, which is a lot more than £17k. It's worth remembering some people spend thousands of pounds a year on rail travel and yet for guards (and other rail staff) there's free travel provision so that adds a lot of value to the TOC's employees contracts.

I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this. Nationally the average guards wage seems to be between 25-30k after training. As to travel, the vast majority of us don't exactly save money on commuting. Leisure travel yes, commuting, not really. Remember most guards you are attacking will either be starting before the first train or finishing after the last one. Our dependents as well are unable to use Priv discounts to commute.

The way ANorthernGuard worded it was that it's no incentive because there are available everywhere but many people don't get them unless they are all publicly available offers and coupons.

Well you can believe that employee benefits are a railway secret but they really really are not...
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Unlikely this petition will even reach the 10,000 mark. Snowball's chance in hell getting to 100,000.

Poorly worded and confused logic. Not signed.

I signed it jut out of being a guard and all that. Really, its fairly pointless as a petition, mainly because with both ASLEF and RMT putting on a combined front about the matter its become a lot harder to push on.

 

[Bodiddly]

Earlier up the thread someone said was that a guard salary really only £17k, so I quoted what a current Northern advert says they get after 3 months training, which is a lot more than £17k. It's worth remembering some people spend thousands of pounds a year on rail travel and yet for guards (and other rail staff) there's free travel provision so that adds a lot of value to the TOC's employees contracts.

There is no doubt our travel facilities are a massive benefit to us but this is a benefit that our company chooses to give to us so we are happy to accept. The jealousy that sometimes bears it's head on these forums is a bit of a joke. If you don't get any benefits from your company and it bothers you so much then change jobs. Also, the vast majority of people in their chosen career won't have to deal with thugs and louts acting up in a confined space.

 

[northwichcat]

So all Northern services after 8pm has now become only services with one particular group of guards. Any advances on that or are you sticking with that one? To be brutally honest when I am out there on a Saturday night I have two things at the front of my mind. Safety, the train's, and mine. If I don't believe going through the train is safe for me (and trust me, when groups of 20 somethings keep grabbing at you and screaming at you it doesn't feel it) then I have no issues no doing so. I'll concentrate on the safety of the train, if that means I won't be doing revenue then so be it. I am still available however and am not locked away by any means.

I'm saying both what I have experienced and what other people have said including some in this thread and I've not changed my line as I said the same thing in post 43.

I'd be interested to know whether the assaults ANorthernGuard referred to were because they were visible staff members or came about after they tried to force someone to buy a ticket, told them to behave themselves etc.

Like I said from the beginning the petition wording says a guard is needed on late services for safety but the solution to the safety aspects identified by the petition is not necessarily one guard on every train.

I'm not entirely sure where you are going with this. Nationally the average guards wage seems to be between 25-30k after training. As to travel, the vast majority of us don't exactly save money on commuting. Leisure travel yes, commuting, not really. Remember most guards you are attacking will either be starting before the first train or finishing after the last one. Our dependents as well are unable to use Priv discounts to commute.

Like I said earlier the question was posed was a guard's salary really only £17k and I found the answer to that an posted the list of incentives Northern offer as well, so it gives a comparison to other jobs. I don't see how it is attacking a guard to say they are better paid than what was previously quoted.
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There is no doubt our travel facilities are a massive benefit to us but this is a benefit that our company chooses to give to us so we are happy to accept. The jealousy that sometimes bears it's head on these forums is a bit of a joke. If you don't get any benefits from your company and it bothers you so much then change jobs. Also, the vast majority of people in their chosen career won't have to deal with thugs and louts acting up in a confined space.

Like I said in my previous post I don't how posting what a guard is paid and what additional incentives they are given from a Northern advert which is advertised to the public, is anti-guard. Do you want the public to believe a misinformed post which indicates you earn a much lower salary than you actually do? If so why?

No most jobs don't have to deal with thugs and louts acting within a confined space and most have more sociable working hours but normally a much lower salary unless you have a specialist qualification or many years experience. I imagine someone asked is it really £17k guards earn because it seemed low taking things such as what you've said in to account, not because £17k is actually low compared to what people earn in other roles. The guard's actually salary is high compared to airline stewards who have to put up with similar problems in a similar environment. Just because I give the missing part of the picture the RMT would keep quiet about, doesn't make me anti-guard, when all the other parts have already been given.