Piccadilly line closed - why no Heathrow Connect?

[zoneking]

I hardly ever travel by tube, but I do to get to & from Heathrow Airport.
Last weekend, the Piccadilly line was closed between Northfields & Hammersmith. They put on replacement buses. This is very inconvenient for people with large amounts of luggage. Why can there not be a reciprocal arrangement between Heathrow Connect (or even Heathrow Express)? It really is very bad for us passengers, being treated like dirt as usual. When there are delays on the tube, or engineering works, then there are reciprocal arrangements between TFL and the TOCs. Why should Heathrow Express and Connect be different? They should not have been given a license to operate.

 

[A-driver]

I hardly ever travel by tube, but I do to get to & from Heathrow Airport.
Last weekend, the Piccadilly line was closed between Northfields & Hammersmith. They put on replacement buses. This is very inconvenient for people with large amounts of luggage. Why can there not be a reciprocal arrangement between Heathrow Connect (or even Heathrow Express)? It really is very bad for us passengers, being treated like dirt as usual. When there are delays on the tube, or engineering works, then there are reciprocal arrangements between TFL and the TOCs. Why should Heathrow Express and Connect be different? They should not have been given a license to operate.

You arnt being treated like dirt-that's a huge overreaction!

Why should they not have a licence to operate? It's very very rare for pre planned engineering works to mean tickets are passed by other operators. Normally buses are organised instead and as it's advertised months in advance you are warned of the bus operating or can choose to plan a route via HEX instead.

TOCs only pass other tickets during disruption as there is often no warning to get enough buses at such short notice.

Hear grow TOCs are acting no different to any other toc so why do you question why they were given a 'license ' to operate?...

 

[tsr]

Sorry, A-driver, but may I politely ask what your basis for that is?

Plenty of planned engineering works will lead to ticket acceptance, especially if they are on major routes - such as to airports. See, for example, the ticket acceptance with FGW, SWT, Southeastern and Metrobus which has been planned for when Southern are unable to operate on some lines North of Gatwick Airport between Christmas & New Year 2013/14. That's a closure of a line to an airport, where other operators are happy to accept tickets.

Replacement buses are eminently not suitable for a wide range of passengers, where a slower journey as far as possible by train is often preferable. Such reasons include luggage, somewhat more predictable timetables, comfort and onboard facilities (although the Tube is by its very nature mostly lacking in the latter).

Whilst I agree that a lack of ticket acceptance shouldn't be a reason to revoke permission to operate, or some such drastic measure (except if the TOC is utterly inept at arranging it during every planned and unplanned disruption), it is, at the same time, foolish not to agree ticket acceptance on a reciprocal basis for various situation. The problem in this case is that mainline services to/from Heathrow Airport are in fact run on a private basis from Heathrow Airport Junction, with little or no flexibility to welcome on board those with tickets valid on TfL-operated public transport. This may be a poor attitude, but there is no obligation for HC/HX to accept Tube tickets to Heathrow... so they don't, for the most part. In addition, those managing alternative transport options for TfL customers possibly don't really feel a need to look beyond buses.

 

[Flamingo]

I hardly ever travel by tube, but I do to get to & from Heathrow Airport.
Last weekend, the Piccadilly line was closed between Northfields & Hammersmith. They put on replacement buses. This is very inconvenient for people with large amounts of luggage. Why can there not be a reciprocal arrangement between Heathrow Connect (or even Heathrow Express)? It really is very bad for us passengers, being treated like dirt as usual. When there are delays on the tube, or engineering works, then there are reciprocal arrangements between TFL and the TOCs. Why should Heathrow Express and Connect be different? They should not have been given a license to operate.

Why not just travel by Heathrow Connect? It's not that much more expensive than tube as a one-off.

Some people make mountains out of molehills...:roll:

 

[A-driver]

Sorry, A-driver, but may I politely ask what your basis for that is?

Plenty of planned engineering works will lead to ticket acceptance, especially if they are on major routes - such as to airports. See, for example, the ticket acceptance with FGW, SWT, Southeastern and Metrobus which has been planned for when Southern are unable to operate on some lines North of Gatwick Airport between Christmas & New Year 2013/14. That's a closure of a line to an airport, where other operators are happy to accept tickets.

Replacement buses are eminently not suitable for a wide range of passengers, where a slower journey as far as possible by train is often preferable. Such reasons include luggage, somewhat more predictable timetables, comfort and onboard facilities (although the Tube is by its very nature mostly lacking in the latter).

Whilst I agree that a lack of ticket acceptance shouldn't be a reason to revoke permission to operate, or some such drastic measure (except if the TOC is utterly inept at arranging it during every planned and unplanned disruption), it is, at the same time, foolish not to agree ticket acceptance on a reciprocal basis for various situation. The problem in this case is that mainline services to/from Heathrow Airport are in fact run on a private basis from Heathrow Airport Junction, with little or no flexibility to welcome on board those with tickets valid on TfL-operated public transport. This may be a poor attitude, but there is no obligation for HC/HX to accept Tube tickets to Heathrow... so they don't, for the most part. In addition, those managing alternative transport options for TfL customers possibly don't really feel a need to look beyond buses.

Well does the OP know that TFL even asked hex for ticket acceptance? They are making out hex to be the evil ones when it may be that TFL didn't ask and didn't want to pay for them to pass tickets.

And it's not that unusual for tickets to be accepted on other operators with planned engineering works. It dies happen but not often. Recently the Hertford line has been shut in Sundays and FCC have laid on buses, they rarely passed tickets via the main line or via greater Anglia as they had laid on buses. Same when the TL is shut on the northern section, they rarely put acceptance in place with LM or the GN side as buses are laid on.

Right it wrong, TOCs don't have to lay on ticket acceptance if buses are provided. They do, however, publicise changes well in advance so anyone trying to get to heathrow on the tube could see weeks in advance that it was a bus service and plan a journey via the mainline instead if they so wished.

 

[zoneking]

OK, OK, I already have a zones 2-6 travelcard so I resent having to pay more.

Also, my journey was to be to East Croydon and I was going to change at West Brompton for the Overground to Clapham Junction. But that line was also closed due to engineering works. So I decided to take the X26 bus which goes direct to E Croydon. But that journey was horrendous - it took 3 hours due to very, very bad traffic. I sometimes hate buses for this reason. I had a very bad experience that day - I was tired having flown on an overnight flight, with a dodgy tummy and desperate for the toilet but stuck on a bus for 3 hours. With hindsight, I should have got the 285 to Feltham and SWT to CLJ.

 

[A-driver]

OK, OK, I already have a zones 2-6 travelcard so I resent having to pay more.

Also, my journey was to be to East Croydon and I was going to change at West Brompton for the Overground to Clapham Junction. But that line was also closed due to engineering works. So I decided to take the X26 bus which goes direct to E Croydon. But that journey was horrendous - it took 3 hours due to very, very bad traffic. I sometimes hate buses for this reason. I had a very bad experience that day - I was tired having flown on an overnight flight, with a dodgy tummy and desperate for the toilet but stuck on a bus for 3 hours. With hindsight, I should have got the 285 to Feltham and SWT to CLJ.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting its ideal to force people onto buses but it's certainly not unique to your example here and is very common with planned engineering works.

It's also perhaps a bit of an overreaction to suggest that you were treated like dirt because of this and certainly over the top to suggest that the heathrow operators should not be allowed a license if they won't accept tube tickets without even knowing if it was their decision or not.

I agree that bus replacements are not great but it's certainly nothing unusual for no alternative rail route to be provided if there are engineering works and a bus is provided. It was, after all, pre planned way in advance so it shouldn't have been a shock in the day really.

 

[talltim]

Rail replacement buses really aren't good enough when there is a rail alternative. After all if you wanted to travel by bus, you would travel by bus anyway. Different routes being run by different TOCs is not a good enough reason in my book.

 

[Mojo]

A number of years ago Heathrow Express did convey customers with an Underground ticket, Travelcard or Oyster card on more than one occasion. I believe that the costs of continuing this were too high so instead customers are required to use the replacement bus services in recent years.

 

[class303]

there are reciprocal arrangements between TFL and the TOCs. Why should Heathrow Express and Connect be different? They should not have been given a license to operate.

A reciprocal arrangement wouldn't really work, would it? If Heathrow Express accept LUL tickets in disruption (like they have in the past) then customers who would have gone by Heathrow Express anyway just buy the cheaper LUL equivalent. Likewise in the event of disruption out of Paddington etc, passengers who have paid the premium for Heathrow express tickets won't be pleased at having to slum it on the tube, and will probably claim compo. LOSE/LOSE for Heathrow express so I fully understand why there is not "reciprocal" acceptance.

 

[Eagle]

One solution would have been for a reciprocal agreement with SWT, and running (some of) the tube replacement buses to Hounslow or Feltham NR station.

TfL do things like this quite often with GA when the Central or Victoria line is closed in NE London.

 

[jon0844]

I would have thought having an arrangement with Heathrow Connect (rather than Express) could have been arranged, if only because people travelling with suitcases, buggies etc are not going to be quite as comfortable using a bus. If they were, they might have opted to take a bus or coach in the first place.

But if that's what it is, and it's been advertised sufficiently in advance, then you can simply refuse to travel on the bus and buy another ticket.. and Heathrow Connect isn't exactly expensive - especially if you have a Travelcard and only need to buy a boundary extension. It's even cheaper with a railcard/annual season.

 

[Eagle]

But Heathrow Connect is partially run by Heathrow Express...

Perhaps they could have arranged an agreement with the FGW half of HC, and put people on a bus at Hayes :P

 

[jon0844]

Actually, as I found out when our train was cancelled and couldn't go beyond Hayes & Harlington, you can actually get a normal bus from outside the station to Heathrow.. and if you had a travelcard, it would not cost any extra.

Probably far easier than waiting for rail replacement buses (or coaches).

 

[Tetchytyke]

Given that Heathrow Express stations at the airport are not within the travelcard zones, and never have been, I'm not sure what the problem is.

Normally you have a choice: slum it on the Piccadilly Line or pay the extra for a nice fast train. In this case the Piccadilly Line had buses, so the choice was use the bus or pay the extra for a nice fast train.

I'd have used the bus to Hayes and Harlington or to Feltham.

 

[455driver]

Actually, as I found out when our train was cancelled and couldn't go beyond Hayes & Harlington, you can actually get a normal bus from outside the station to Heathrow.. and if you had a travelcard, it would not cost any extra.

Probably far easier than waiting for rail replacement buses (or coaches).

The 140, took me 20 seconds on google to find it!
If Heathrow Connect accepted tickets does anyone think their 350s would have coped with the loadings?

If they had done that and not put on buses then just imagine the moaning about 'why werent buses put on instead because the trains were leaving people behind', it is easier to manage the demand with buses than it is with one 5 coach train every half an hour.

 

[jon0844]

The 140, took me 20 seconds on google to find it!
If Heathrow Connect accepted tickets does anyone think their 350s would have coped with the loadings?

If they had done that and not put on buses then just imagine the moaning about 'why werent buses put on instead because the trains were leaving people behind', it is easier to manage the demand with buses than it is with one 5 coach train every half an hour.

If it's not peak, when the train is used by ordinary commuters not going to the airport and can be rammed, then the Heathrow Connect is usually very comfortable and has plenty of room for bags.

It's a very pleasant, and far cheaper, journey and - as the advertising stated - the smart way to get to the airport! Not much slower, but considerably cheaper (especially for someone with a travelcard already).

I didn't remember the bus number, but didn't think it was that important to mention. After all, London buses are incredibly easy to work out at most stops, and there are next bus screens too.

The only downside is that it only runs every 30 minutes, and depending on how you get to Paddington (especially by tube) you can run the risk of missing it and essentially having an hour to get to the airport. But, touch wood, I've always managed the connection having come from King's Cross.. and once you know the quickest way to get to platform 12, it's straight forward enough.

 

[maniacmartin]

The Rail Replacement Coach worked perfectly for me. Couldn't have been better, loads of room for luggage. There were an awful lot of coaches laid on - we caught up with the one in front at Hammersmith, and 3 staff members at each end to help unload and direct, as well as signage