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Piccadilly line to Ealing Broadway

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Wirewiper

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However, regarding going by bus, I very much do not see this as an option. Why not? Because [...] passengers with paper railway tickets will be denied boarding ('coz buses no longer accept cash fares). Remove that obstacle and then for the able bodied this becomes an option.

Rail tickets are accepted on any reasonable alternative bus route in West London when GWR/HC trains are not running, or are not calling at certain stations due to engineering work (usual casualties are Hanwell, West Ealing, Acton Main Line and the Greenford branch).

I agree that PAYG travellers may be financially worse off, although for many users daily capping would have come into play anyway.
 
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MatthewRead

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I was at Ealing Broadway and the service was appalling a half hourly service to Reading and an hourly Heathrow Connect service (although I thought that wasn't running due to the engineering works along with the Heathrow Express) one service was short formed of 4 carriages and was full and standing most people didn't bother to get on and yet there were 2 more services directly behind and they didn't stop. If there was a Piccadilly or District service running then there would not have been these issues as passengers would have another way of getting into London.
Also waited ages for a train to Turnham Green at Hammersmith only the Rayners Lane and Uxbridge trains were stopping couldn't they have stopped the Northfields trains as well they aren't important like the Heathrows or at least have them all stop at Turnham Green to relieve overcrowding how hard can it be???????
 

londonboi198o5

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I was at Ealing Broadway and the service was appalling a half hourly service to Reading and an hourly Heathrow Connect service (although I thought that wasn't running due to the engineering works along with the Heathrow Express) one service was short formed of 4 carriages and was full and standing most people didn't bother to get on and yet there were 2 more services directly behind and they didn't stop. If there was a Piccadilly or District service running then there would not have been these issues as passengers would have another way of getting into London.
Also waited ages for a train to Turnham Green at Hammersmith only the Rayners Lane and Uxbridge trains were stopping couldn't they have stopped the Northfields trains as well they aren't important like the Heathrows or at least have them all stop at Turnham Green to relieve overcrowding how hard can it be???????

just highlighted a section of your quote Why are they not important is that because there not important to you ??. they may well be important to others.

It has been said time and time again to you in this post and others that you started that engineering works were taking place. If you checked the national rail services website in advance it would have showed you a half hour service from EBY and that the H/C was running.
 

Steve Harris

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I was at Ealing Broadway and the service was appalling a half hourly service to Reading and an hourly Heathrow Connect service (although I thought that wasn't running due to the engineering works along with the Heathrow Express) one service was short formed of 4 carriages and was full and standing most people didn't bother to get on and yet there were 2 more services directly behind and they didn't stop. If there was a Piccadilly or District service running then there would not have been these issues as passengers would have another way of getting into London.
Also waited ages for a train to Turnham Green at Hammersmith only the Rayners Lane and Uxbridge trains were stopping couldn't they have stopped the Northfields trains as well they aren't important like the Heathrows or at least have them all stop at Turnham Green to relieve overcrowding how hard can it be???????

Perhaps you should of grabbed a load of complaint forms or you could of printed them at home and handed them out to all these passangers who you say where aggrieved. At least then it wouldn't be just you complaining ! (Sorry if that seems harsh but from the outside looking in, it is just you complaining!)

Edited for punctuation.
 

Dstock7080

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Piccadilly trains to Rayners Lane and Uxbridge were operating every 10min over the local line.
Northfields trains were scheduled over the fast line just 2min behind the local trains.

Central Line services were operating every 10min to/from Ealing Broadway during the closure.
 
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I was quite relieved that the Heathrow Piccadilly trains were not stopping at the district line stations as they were already packed with the extra airport traffic caused by the Paddington blockade. Yesterday I managed to grab the last seat in a carriage on a London bound service at Hatton Cross! I was lucky to get that as people were jam packed in the door areas as they preferred to stand next to a companion than take that singe seat. I also had to scale several large pieces of luggage that were completely blocking the isle.
 

jumble

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Piccadilly trains to Rayners Lane and Uxbridge were operating every 10min over the local line.
Northfields trains were scheduled over the fast line just 2min behind the local trains.

Central Line services were operating every 10min to/from Ealing Broadway during the closure.

In theory perhaps but not in practice
I returned from Earls Court to Rayners on Xmas eve and the next Uxbridge branch train was showing 16 minutes when we got to the platform at EC
Regards Jumble
 

MatthewRead

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In theory perhaps but not in practice
I returned from Earls Court to Rayners on Xmas eve and the next Uxbridge branch train was showing 16 minutes when we got to the platform at EC
Regards Jumble
Exactly and you know whats worse I've read there's more engineering works shutting this end of the District line again next Christmas preventing the Steam Special running to commemorate the District line 150th birthday so it will run on a weekend sometime in July.
 

hassaanhc

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I was quite relieved that the Heathrow Piccadilly trains were not stopping at the district line stations as they were already packed with the extra airport traffic caused by the Paddington blockade. Yesterday I managed to grab the last seat in a carriage on a London bound service at Hatton Cross! I was lucky to get that as people were jam packed in the door areas as they preferred to stand next to a companion than take that singe seat. I also had to scale several large pieces of luggage that were completely blocking the isle.
Sounds like a normal day on the Piccadilly line! Usually a decent amount of space in cars 1-2 but even then the experience is grim. Even a small amount of luggage blocks the aisle.
 

bluegoblin7

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Exactly and you know whats worse I've read there's more engineering works shutting this end of the District line again next Christmas preventing the Steam Special running to commemorate the District line 150th birthday so it will run on a weekend sometime in July.

Please. Not another year of this. Maybe you don't want any steam specials? Focus on the positives. The work has to be done and it is the most convenient time.
 

MatthewRead

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Please. Not another year of this. Maybe you don't want any steam specials? Focus on the positives. The work has to be done and it is the most convenient time.
But they didn't use to cripple such large parts of the network with engineering works in the old days. And actually I would like the special to run at the correct time!
I hope they run things differently next year.
 

Mag_seven

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I was quite relieved that the Heathrow Piccadilly trains were not stopping at the district line stations as they were already packed with the extra airport traffic caused by the Paddington blockade.

The Paddington blockade ended last Thursday - HEX were operating on Saturday (30th) the day you refer to.
 

Wirewiper

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But they didn't use to cripple such large parts of the network with engineering works in the old days.

No, in the old days they just used to put off decisions about investment and renewals. So now we are still catching up with a backlog of work, some of which would have been sorted out years ago under a properly planned and resourced programme of renewals and investment.

There has also been a change in philosophy, where large-scale closures at typically quieter periods are sometimes seen as preferable to endless disruptive evening and weekend possessions. The Christmas/New Year period in particular offers a potentially large window of uninterrupted time to get a big project done.
 

MatthewRead

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The Paddington blockade ended last Thursday - HEX were operating on Saturday (30th) the day you refer to.
Originally I was led to believe the Heathrow Express and Connect services wouldn't run due to capacity constraints in and out of Paddington.
 

MatthewRead

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Perhaps you should of grabbed a load of complaint forms or you could of printed them at home and handed them out to all these passangers who you say where aggrieved. At least then it wouldn't be just you complaining ! (Sorry if that seems harsh but from the outside looking in, it is just you complaining!)

Edited for punctuation.
Yesterday i had to miss 2 trains at Turnham Green while all the empty trains went sailing straight through and there were other passengers complaining I hope next time they make the Heathrow service stop in on the middle platforms if there are future closures.
 

Steve Harris

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Yesterday i had to miss 2 trains at Turnham Green while all the empty trains went sailing straight through and there were other passengers complaining.


Verbally complaing or actually writing out a email of complaint on there Personal Electronic Device ?
 

Dstock7080

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Yesterday i had to miss 2 trains at Turnham Green while all the empty trains went sailing straight through and there were other passengers complaining I hope next time they make the Heathrow service stop in on the middle platforms if there are future closures.
How often do District Line trains normally operate from Turnham Green to Acton Town?
- every 10mins
Special Piccadilly Line service via local line:
- every 10mins

Once the area is resignalled (2020ish) it will not be possible to run Piccadilly trains via the westbound local line, as the points at Hammersmith are to be removed.
 
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MatthewRead

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How often do District Line trains normally operate from Turnham Green to Acton Town?
- every 10mins
Special Piccadilly Line service via local line:
- every 10mins

Once the area is resignalled (2020ish) it will not be possible to run Piccadilly trains via the westbound local line, as the points at Hammersmith are to be removed.
Oh I didn't know that why is that?
 

TheNewNo2

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Oh I didn't know that why is that?

I don't have an answer to that, though it may be a CBTC compatability issue. But hopefully if they remove those points they can lower the District tracks and raise the Piccadilly's so they both have step-free access.
 

ijmad

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Interested to see what happens to Turnham Green & Chiswick Park if this ever comes to pass. W4 residents have long been promised an all-day stop at Turnham Green when there's new trains and new signalling, but if all the Districts are going to Richmond there'll be nothing left at all to stop at Chiswick Park.

I suppose options would include switching some or all of the Piccadilly Line trains to the outer tracks, or constructing new platforms for Chiswick Park on the Richmond branch (I think there's space if you exercised eminent domain over Sainsburys car park). This has been mentioned in a few places as an option.

Stopping the Piccadilly Line at both seems excessive although I suppose some of the time pressure might be off these services for people in a rush to Heathrow, who will probably use Crossrail when it opens, and the new trains might bring enough top speed increase it wouldn't affect journey times as much as you'd think.

Having said all that, I'm not sure why they don't withdraw service to Ealing Broadway entirely. Crossrail brings far better service than the District ever provided to Central London, and local connections could surely be provided in other ways, such as creating a better interchange between the Central and Piccadilly or frankly, a 5 minute bus ride up Uxbridge Road...
 

rebmcr

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Having said all that, I'm not sure why they don't withdraw service to Ealing Broadway entirely. Crossrail brings far better service than the District ever provided to Central London, and local connections could surely be provided in other ways, such as creating a better interchange between the Central and Piccadilly or frankly, a 5 minute bus ride up Uxbridge Road...

Only if the terminating capacity can be provided elsewhere, plus even more TPH once 4LM is complete.
 

ijmad

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Only if the terminating capacity can be provided elsewhere, plus even more TPH once 4LM is complete.

True enough. I guess it also remains to be seen whether the Heathrow and Uxbridge branches would ever need 15+tph if the Piccadilly does get to 33tph or even 36tph.
 

MarkyT

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Another idea for serving Chiswick Park could be to continue running some Districts alongside the Piccadilly on the four track section as far as Northfields. An extension to Southall might then be possible along the Brentford branch. http://www.townend.me/files/piccadilly.pdf
 

ijmad

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Another idea for serving Chiswick Park could be to continue running some Districts alongside the Piccadilly on the four track section as far as Northfields. An extension to Southall might then be possible along the Brentford branch. http://www.townend.me/files/piccadilly.pdf

The problem with that would be reversing at Northfields. District Line would be the outer tracks so would have to cross over both directions of the Piccadilly Line to reverse, which could be 15-20tph in both directions. Doesn't seem very plausible. Likewise it would mean mixing up the two line's signalling systems which this change is trying to avoid in the first place.

A Southhall extension similarly would surely require a flying junction for the westbound to deliver any reasonable and reliable service for a very limited cost/benefit ratio for a station that will already be well served by Crossrail and whose destinations you'd already be able to reach by making a cross-platform interchange to the Piccadilly at Hammersmith and the changing to Crossrail at Ealing Broadway.
 

MarkyT

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The problem with that would be reversing at Northfields. District Line would be the outer tracks so would have to cross over both directions of the Piccadilly Line to reverse, which could be 15-20tph in both directions. Doesn't seem very plausible. Likewise it would mean mixing up the two line's signalling systems which this change is trying to avoid in the first place.

A Southhall extension similarly would surely require a flying junction for the westbound to deliver any reasonable and reliable service for a very limited cost/benefit ratio for a station that will already be well served by Crossrail and whose destinations you'd already be able to reach by making a cross-platform interchange to the Piccadilly at Hammersmith and the changing to Crossrail at Ealing Broadway.

Agreed you'd need a grade separated facility of some sort for a junction or turnback siding for either option. If you look at p5 of my pdf you will see this. Makes me wonder what is the purpose of retaining 4 tracks on the section. Is it primarily for queuing units going in and out of Northfields depot? When they resignal, perhaps some of the 4 track could be removed. As to signalling, I thought the idea was for the Picc to eventually share the same signalling system with the sub surface lines. The existing Picc trains will survive longer than anticipated originally and they're not compatible with the new signalling so I understood on the four track sections east of Acton, a complete new signalling 'ecosystem' will be provided but temporarily also equipped with new colour lights and trainstops on the Picc pair to suit the old trains. The signals and trainstops will then be removed once the new trains are all in service. I guess west of Acton, resignalling can be deferred until the new trains are delivered though, so in that case your signalling comment is valid unless the S stock could switch to existing traditional signalling west of Acton. They're clearly capable of this as that is how they run today on the entire SS network, and a Northfields service would not be pushing line capacity to the point new cab signalling is an absolute requirement.
 

LU_timetabler

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The Piccadilly will eventually take over Ealing Broadway service from Ealing Common. The District will then not serve Chiswick Park or Turnham Green. Turnham Green will become a Piccadilly served station. Plans unclear for Chiswick Park - possibly it might be relocated onto the Richmond branch. The District reversing at Northfields could be achieved by tipping out on the local westbound, running into the depot, and then exiting the depot via the existing flyover onto the eastbound tracks is possible, but not planned. The Piccadilly currently does this move regularly. The District will continue to use Ealing Common depot with a flyover from Acton Town westbound local tracks being planned to allow direct access from the east - which is currently not possible. I should say: The final plans for this change are far from definite, and could very well change, depending on financing, but the general desire is to get District and Piccadilly services either completely independant, or only interfere with each other during start-up / close-down with depot moves.
 

ijmad

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The District will then not serve Chiswick Park or Turnham Green. Turnham Green will become a Piccadilly served station.

That is intriguing! Assume the stopping pattern would be swapped, District non-stopping, Piccadilly stopping.

That would create problems for those wanting to travel from Ravenscourt Park, Stamford Brook or Turnham Green to Richmond branch stations - unless Chiswick Park got some new platforms, like you say, and both lines stopped there.
 

MarkyT

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The Piccadilly will eventually take over Ealing Broadway service from Ealing Common. The District will then not serve Chiswick Park or Turnham Green. Turnham Green will become a Piccadilly served station. Plans unclear for Chiswick Park - possibly it might be relocated onto the Richmond branch. The District reversing at Northfields could be achieved by tipping out on the local westbound, running into the depot, and then exiting the depot via the existing flyover onto the eastbound tracks is possible, but not planned. The Piccadilly currently does this move regularly. The District will continue to use Ealing Common depot with a flyover from Acton Town westbound local tracks being planned to allow direct access from the east - which is currently not possible. I should say: The final plans for this change are far from definite, and could very well change, depending on financing, but the general desire is to get District and Piccadilly services either completely independant, or only interfere with each other during start-up / close-down with depot moves.

I don't understand why you'd want to cut out Turnham Green on the District when its got its own platforms. Most economically the Ealing Broadway and Uxbridge branches only of the Picc could serve Chiswick Park on the outer tracks with a new junction just west of the District divergence at Turnham Green. The Heathrow trains would stay on the middle pair and avoid Chiswick Park, as shown here:
Chiswick.jpg
 
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