Pick-up only destination - what grounds to prevent me using

[Antman]

Restrictions like this have been in place since British Railways days- I think Watford may even be a BR era one? Pretty sure people have challenged fines issued because of this and lost on several occasions.

So go ahead OP, do it if you think the risk of getting caught or over-carried due to last minute removal of the stop is a low risk. But don't say you weren't warned!

In BR days people didn't have smart phones so just accepted it.

Can you imagine the field day the press would have about a law abiding person being prosecuted for travelling from A to B complete with a ticket from A to B?

 

[Bensonby]

If the OP has a season ticket is it actually invalid? I thought for seasons tickets the train didn’t actually have to stop For it to be valid (e.g. a Eus to Milton Keynes ticket could be held and then a Milton Keynes to the train’s destination could also be held).

In addition to this, what if someone had a valid ticket to/from the first official calling point but got on/off at the unadvertised intermediate “set down/pick up” only stop?

In any case, byelaw 10(2) may apply in these circumstances.

 

[AM9]

If the OP has a season ticket is it actually invalid? I thought for seasons tickets the train didn’t actually have to stop For it to be valid (e.g. a Eus to Milton Keynes ticket could be held and then a Milton Keynes to the train’s destination could also be held).

In addition to this, what if someone had a valid ticket to/from the first official calling point but got on/off at the unadvertised intermediate “set down/pick up” only stop? ...

It would be appropriate for a gate or an on train inspector to mark the ticket as in-use on that day. That means that the traveller couldn't carry a ticket on repeat journeys just in-case the train didn't stop.

 

[AM9]

In BR days people didn't have smart phones so just accepted it.

Can you imagine the field day the press would have about a law abiding person being prosecuted for travelling from A to B complete with a ticket from A to B?

It wouldn't be the first time that the press conveniently ignored some of the facts in a story, - in this case the fact that the train was not advertised for that journey, therefore the ticket was not valid.
We can go on contriving all sorts of obscure scenarios where certain tickets might be carried to circumvent the rules, but surely tickets are issued for travel on 'advertised services between the two stations'. So once a passenger goes outside the advertised services, their ticket is no longer valid. These smart-arse commuters who think that unnofficial information about stops (e.g. RTT, OTT etc.,) counter the official definition of an advertised service would be subject to prosecution under the rules despite the ranting of anti-rail news hacks.

 

[AlterEgo]

Actually, whilst I agree that passengers may be denied entry to a train which is 'pick up' only despite having a valid ticket to MKC, I don't agree that they can be charged any additional fare if they do indeed get off at MKC, having somehow made it onto the train. The only time I believe the TOC would have the right to charge the fare to the next timetabled set-down stop would be if the passenger had no ticket at all (or one not valid at all even to MKC, e.g. a LNR-only ticket).

If the train ends up not stopping there... fair enough, the ticket holder can be charged the appropriate fare to the first stop. But I don't see any basis in the NRCoT for treating a passenger as not having a valid ticket just because of the nature of the call.

Prosecution would also appear difficult. How can the passenger be said to be boarding the train without a valid ticket (Byelaw 18(1)) if they have a ticket that is valid for the journey they make, to the station the train stops at and opens the doors at? They would be able to present a ticket upon inspection (Byelaw 18(2)). And they would have paid their fare (RoRA S5(3)(a)) for the journey they intended to make, and actually made.

It only really becomes problematic if the train ends up not stopping - if that happens, of course the situation is quite different. So really, it is a question of practicality of getting on the train, and of risk to the passenger if the train doesn't stop.

I agree with this. When I worked at VTWC, we often had this debate, and the consensus was that these would be the options available to the TOC.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I can see the argument with season ticket holders, but it technically isn't valid for that portion of the journey on that particular train so the passenger should definitely get charged from Euston.

A NRCoT 14 split is unquestionably valid because the train only has to pass through the station for that to be so. However, that split has to be purchased before boarding to be valid for any of the journey, so you are probably correct - Anytime Single from Euston to Rugby (or wherever the first stop is).

 

[_toommm_]

A NRCoT 14 split is unquestionably valid because the train only has to pass through the station for that to be so. However, that split has to be purchased before boarding to be valid for any of the journey, so you are probably correct - Anytime Single from Euston to Rugby (or wherever the first stop is).

Well yes, I was thinking more of on the lines of the OP trying to do this when challenged.

 

[AndyCommuter]

Actually, whilst I agree that passengers may be denied entry to a train which is 'pick up' only despite having a valid ticket to MKC, I don't agree that they can be charged any additional fare if they do indeed get off at MKC, having somehow made it onto the train. The only time I believe the TOC would have the right to charge the fare to the next timetabled set-down stop would be if the passenger had no ticket at all (or one not valid at all even to MKC, e.g. a LNR-only ticket).

If the train ends up not stopping there... fair enough, the ticket holder can be charged the appropriate fare to the first stop. But I don't see any basis in the NRCoT for treating a passenger as not having a valid ticket just because of the nature of the call.

Prosecution would also appear difficult. How can the passenger be said to be boarding the train without a valid ticket (Byelaw 18(1)) if they have a ticket that is valid for the journey they make, to the station the train stops at and opens the doors at? They would be able to present a ticket upon inspection (Byelaw 18(2)). And they would have paid their fare (RoRA S5(3)(a)) for the journey they intended to make, and actually made.

It only really becomes problematic if the train ends up not stopping - if that happens, of course the situation is quite different. So really, it is a question of practicality of getting on the train, and of risk to the passenger if the train doesn't stop.

Agree that when on train I still don't see myself that I can be charged an additional fare for getting off at MKC. When I have taken this journey then I haven't seen anyone else getting off at MKC, so hardly seems to be hordes of people crowding out the train. Very unlikely to miss MKC as is major stop for people travelling further North on this regular service. I use Virgin trains in the morning but for some reason there is gap in their timetabling at commuter time out of Euston (at least for advertised stops). Yes, there are alternative services but I gain 20 minutes on this service, which is always worthwhile for me. Not entirely sure why it is arrogant to take an interest in the timetabling and work out most effective routes rather than blinding following the rules. Although I have no doubt at all that if MKC were an advertised stop then this would be a rammed service, as it is peak time commute and by far the fastest train between the stops.

 

[AndyCommuter]

In BR days people didn't have smart phones so just accepted it.

Can you imagine the field day the press would have about a law abiding person being prosecuted for travelling from A to B complete with a ticket from A to B?

I have been caught. But inspector just says, you shouldn't get off at MKC, and could in theory charge me to next stop, Nuneaton. But I would refuse to make this payment and that is the question, am i a law-abiding person by refusing to make that payment? I still think I'm on fairly safe grounds. Although most people on here disagree.

 

[Antman]

I have been caught. But inspector just says, you shouldn't get off at MKC, and could in theory charge me to next stop, Nuneaton. But I would refuse to make this payment and that is the question, am i a law-abiding person by refusing to make that payment? I still think I'm on fairly safe grounds. Although most people on here disagree.

Sounds like the inspector was taking a sensible pragmatic approach, I suspect TOC's accept this arrangement is never going to be foolproof and if it at least reduces the number of short distance passengers on long distance services they settle for that. The only foolproof way would be to remove the stop completely.

 

[Bletchleyite]

How do you gain 20 minutes on the service? The train I believe to be in question, the 1810, arrives at MKC at 1841. The 1813 LNR service arrives at MKC at 1845 (taking only one minute longer). That means you gain 4 minutes, not 20. Not worth the faff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Although I have no doubt at all that if MKC were an advertised stop then this would be a rammed service

I'm sure it would, hence why it is not advertised. Some trains are advertised southbound because passengers getting on at MKC can't prevent other passengers boarding/getting seats as they're already on and in the seats.

FWIW, what's arrogant is you believing it's OK for you to use this train when it is not, and it has been explained to you why.

by far the fastest train between the stops.

By precisely 60 seconds.

 

[AndyCommuter]

I'm sure it would, hence why it is not advertised. Some trains are advertised southbound because passengers getting on at MKC can't prevent other passengers boarding/getting seats as they're already on and in the seats.

FWIW, what's arrogant is you believing it's OK for you to use this train when it is not, and it has been explained to you why.



By precisely 60 seconds.

Nah, I mean at this time as the alternatives are West Midlands and they have other stops unless wait for 1746, and they are still not quite so quick between Euston and MKC as the Virgin trains. So if i'm arriving Euston around 5pm on a weekday I can gain 20 minutes by boarding the supposed non-stopping Virgin train.
And is a discussion as to legalities. And by from what I've seen the most accurate response points out law on my side.

 

[6Gman]

I use the evening Chester/North Wales trains off Euston from time to time. Generally they are rammed to Milton Keynes, then lightly loaded. I have seen family parties standing because of this. Yes, they can find a seat from MKC but it's not good.

Anyway, the decision lies with the train operator not me nor the OP. And, as has been explained, you are in breach of the conditions of travel.

A future revenue protection official may be less pragmatic.

(I was on a Chester a few months ago when two lads thought they had put one over on the - female - Train Manager by giving a false address. Until the BTP met them at the next stop ...)

 

[AndyCommuter]

How do you gain 20 minutes on the service? The train I believe to be in question, the 1810, arrives at MKC at 1841. The 1813 LNR service arrives at MKC at 1845 (taking only one minute longer). That means you gain 4 minutes, not 20. Not worth the faff.

Train is the 1710. There is 1713, but I don't tend to use it as v busy and not easy to work on. My alternative is the 1716 to avoid standing.

 

[6Gman]

Nah, I mean at this time as the alternatives are West Midlands and they have other stops unless wait for 1746, and they are still not quite so quick between Euston and MKC as the Virgin trains. So if i'm arriving Euston around 5pm on a weekday I can gain 20 minutes by boarding the supposed non-stopping Virgin train.
And is a discussion as to legalities. And by from what I've seen the most accurate response points out law on my side.

Until a Train Manager decides to prevent you leaving the train at Milton Keynes ...

Still, Nuneaton is a nice place of an evening ...

 

[Joe Paxton]

Until a Train Manager decides to prevent you leaving the train at Milton Keynes ...

Still, Nuneaton is a nice place of an evening ...

I don't think a Train Manager has that power.

And even if, by some reading of the rules (e.g. the RoRA) they did, I doubt they would exercise it now.

I don't think the NRCOT adequately cover this area - it should be explicitly prohibited if that is what the railways want.

 

[AndyCommuter]

I don't think a Train Manager has that power.

And even if, by some reading of the rules (e.g. the RoRA) they did, I doubt they would exercise it now.

I don't think the NRCOT adequately cover this area - it should be explicitly prohibited if that is what the railways want.

Definitely I would question a train manager would have that power, I would say that would be false imprisonment, the train has stopped and the doors have opened, and I have a valid ticket for my route.

 

[jon0844]

Definitely I would question a train manager would have that power, I would say that would be false imprisonment, the train has stopped and the doors have opened, and I have a valid ticket for my route.

But not that train. Clearly you don't care that you're doing something you shouldn't, so I don't suppose it matters anyway.

 

[AndyCommuter]

But not that train. Clearly you don't care that you're doing something you shouldn't, so I don't suppose it matters anyway.

Umm I didn't board the train without a valid ticket and have a valid ticket the journey I intend to make, how can the ticket not be valid for the train? It's a season ticket. Doing something against a set of rules might not bother me much, if it could be shown to be illegal then I would have a different opinion. But from what has been posted here, to me it clearly isn't.

 

[jon0844]

If the train is pick up only, you couldn't use that train. The fact you can't be stopped getting off and a gateline won't reject your ticket doesn't change that fact.

 

[Antman]

I don't think a Train Manager has that power.

And even if, by some reading of the rules (e.g. the RoRA) they did, I doubt they would exercise it now.

I don't think the NRCOT adequately cover this area - it should be explicitly prohibited if that is what the railways want.

Sounds hilarious the idea of the train manager trying to prevent people getting off at Milton Keynes "get back on that train you're coming to Nuneaton whether you like it or not". As I mentioned previously I saw staff at Clapham Junction advising a passenger to board a train for Woking despite the fact that it supposedly stops there to pick up only. It seems these restrictions aren't taken as seriously as some people on here would like.

 

[AndyCommuter]

Sounds hilarious the idea of the train manager trying to prevent people getting off at Milton Keynes "get back on that train you're coming to Nuneaton whether you like it or not". As I mentioned previously I saw staff at Clapham Junction advising a passenger to board a train for Woking despite the fact that it supposedly stops there to pick up only. It seems these restrictions aren't taken as seriously as some people on here would like.

Yes, totally. Yet flouting the rules is frowned upon, cos those the rules. It's a pick-up only station, and the rule is you can't get off! Although there is no legal backing for that rule. The argument then falls back to, 'if everybody did, then where would we be?'

 

[EM2]

Umm I didn't board the train without a valid ticket

Yes, you did. The service doesn't call at MKC to set down. You can't have a valid ticket to a station if it's a station that you can't get off at (unless we get into the minutiae of splits and onward travel).

 

[AndyCommuter]

Yes, you did. The service doesn't call at MKC to set down. You can't have a valid ticket to a station if it's a station that you can't get off at (unless we get into the minutiae of splits and onward travel).

I think we've established that once on the train there would be no legal grounds to either:
Prevent me leaving the train, nor
Charging me an onward journey

 

[EM2]

I think we've established that once on the train there would be no legal grounds to either:
Prevent me leaving the train, nor
Charging me an onward journey

No, but you could be charged for the journey that you've just made.

 

[MotorcycleAlan]

I know its pantomime season but how long can this "Oh yes I can" "Oh no you can't " debate go on? Can someone in charge please put us out of our misery?

 

[Aictos]

I have been caught. But inspector just says, you shouldn't get off at MKC, and could in theory charge me to next stop, Nuneaton. But I would refuse to make this payment and that is the question, am i a law-abiding person by refusing to make that payment? I still think I'm on fairly safe grounds. Although most people on here disagree.

No because you are in the wrong and should quite rightly be charged a brand new ticket which is valid from London Euston to the first station where you can board/get off be that Stafford, Crewe, Coventry or Rugby.

So no you are not NOT on fairly safe grounds and are very much in the wrong!

Nah, I mean at this time as the alternatives are West Midlands and they have other stops unless wait for 1746, and they are still not quite so quick between Euston and MKC as the Virgin trains. So if i'm arriving Euston around 5pm on a weekday I can gain 20 minutes by boarding the supposed non-stopping Virgin train.
And is a discussion as to legalities. And by from what I've seen the most accurate response points out law on my side.

No you are quite wrong because if you arrive at Euston around 5pm on a weekday as you have explained then please explain to me how you can save 20 minutes by using the 17:10 Virgin Trains which your ticket is not valid to using the 17:13 LNWR which your ticket is valid bearing in mind the latter gets into Milton Keynes just 2 minutes later and is non stop from Euston.

By my maths, your claim of saving 20 minutes doesn't add up at all!

And ignorance of the law is no defence as it's been pointed out to you numerous times that your ticket is NOT valid on a service which is pick up only just the same as it would not be valid towards Euston on a service which is set down only at Watford Junction.

Definitely I would question a train manager would have that power, I would say that would be false imprisonment, the train has stopped and the doors have opened, and I have a valid ticket for my route.

But you do NOT have a valid ticket for that train, it might be a Milton Keynes to London Terminals season ticket but it doesn't give you carte blanche to board any train which heads to Milton Keynes especially as there are ticket restrictions in place which state that the train in question is PICK UP ONLY at Milton Keynes, not any ticket is valid so just board.

So as been explained to you, before many times and I don't know why it is difficult to understand why you are in the wrong but until such a time that the pick up only restriction is removed, your ticket is not valid as the train only calls at Milton Keynes to PICK UP passengers not allow passengers who could easily use LNWR services to save 2 minutes to use it.

As to stating false inprisonment I doubt it, you could quite rightly be held by revenue who should give you a Penalty Fare/charge you a brand new ticket from Euston to the first valid station stop which is Nuneaton because your ticket is NOT valid!

Umm I didn't board the train without a valid ticket and have a valid ticket the journey I intend to make, how can the ticket not be valid for the train? It's a season ticket. Doing something against a set of rules might not bother me much, if it could be shown to be illegal then I would have a different opinion. But from what has been posted here, to me it clearly isn't.

Umm you did board the train without a valid ticket and no you don't have a valid ticket for the journey you intend to make as the first acceptable stop on that service is Nuneaton which is where passengers can get on or get off - Milton Keynes is only there for passengers from Milton Keynes to join the train there to travel onto Nuneaton and beyond.

Just because it's a season ticket doesn't mean it is valid as the 17:10 is advertised at Euston as Pick Up Only at Milton Keynes and the timetables also advertise Milton Keynes as a Pick Up Only call therefore as it is NOT a acceptable stop ie a stop to pick up and drop off passengers then your ticket is not valid.

Therefore as you are breaking the ticket restrictions which have been explained to you countless times and as it's also been explained to you that your ticket is not valid and why, it HAS been shown that your actions are illegal simply because you do not hold a valid ticket for that service.

Yes, totally. Yet flouting the rules is frowned upon, cos those the rules. It's a pick-up only station, and the rule is you can't get off! Although there is no legal backing for that rule. The argument then falls back to, 'if everybody did, then where would we be?'

Umm yes there is legal backing for that rule because Virgin Trains could argue that they have advertised the stop as Pick Up Only in the timetables, onboard announcements and also at Euston but also could state that Pick Up Only differs from a regular stop as a regular stop is advertised as a stop which passengers can get on or get off the service.

So Virgin Trains are quite in the right here and you for reasons I can't understand why cannot understand why you are in the wrong.

Any passenger who boards a Virgin Trains, LNER or GWR service who intends to travel to Watford Junction/Milton Keynes, Stevenage or Reading where the train is pick up only at these stations should be charged a brand new ticket from London to the first station where passengers can get on or get off be it Nuneaton/Rugby/Crewe, Peterborough/Grantham or Swindon/Oxford as there are alternative services available which are valid to be used.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

No because you are in the wrong and should quite rightly be charged a brand new ticket which is valid from London Euston to the first station where you can board/get off be that Stafford, Crewe, Coventry or Rugby.

So no you are not NOT on fairly safe grounds and are very much in the wrong!



No you are quite wrong because if you arrive at Euston around 5pm on a weekday as you have explained then please explain to me how you can save 20 minutes by using the 17:10 Virgin Trains which your ticket is not valid to using the 17:13 LNWR which your ticket is valid bearing in mind the latter gets into Milton Keynes just 2 minutes later and is non stop from Euston.

By my maths, your claim of saving 20 minutes doesn't add up at all!

And ignorance of the law is no defence as it's been pointed out to you numerous times that your ticket is NOT valid on a service which is pick up only just the same as it would not be valid towards Euston on a service which is set down only at Watford Junction.



But you do NOT have a valid ticket for that train, it might be a Milton Keynes to London Terminals season ticket but it doesn't give you carte blanche to board any train which heads to Milton Keynes especially as there are ticket restrictions in place which state that the train in question is PICK UP ONLY at Milton Keynes, not any ticket is valid so just board.

So as been explained to you, before many times and I don't know why it is difficult to understand why you are in the wrong but until such a time that the pick up only restriction is removed, your ticket is not valid as the train only calls at Milton Keynes to PICK UP passengers not allow passengers who could easily use LNWR services to save 2 minutes to use it.

As to stating false inprisonment I doubt it, you could quite rightly be held by revenue who should give you a Penalty Fare/charge you a brand new ticket from Euston to the first valid station stop which is Nuneaton because your ticket is NOT valid!



Umm you did board the train without a valid ticket and no you don't have a valid ticket for the journey you intend to make as the first acceptable stop on that service is Nuneaton which is where passengers can get on or get off - Milton Keynes is only there for passengers from Milton Keynes to join the train there to travel onto Nuneaton and beyond.

Just because it's a season ticket doesn't mean it is valid as the 17:10 is advertised at Euston as Pick Up Only at Milton Keynes and the timetables also advertise Milton Keynes as a Pick Up Only call therefore as it is NOT a acceptable stop ie a stop to pick up and drop off passengers then your ticket is not valid.

Therefore as you are breaking the ticket restrictions which have been explained to you countless times and as it's also been explained to you that your ticket is not valid and why, it HAS been shown that your actions are illegal simply because you do not hold a valid ticket for that service.



Umm yes there is legal backing for that rule because Virgin Trains could argue that they have advertised the stop as Pick Up Only in the timetables, onboard announcements and also at Euston but also could state that Pick Up Only differs from a regular stop as a regular stop is advertised as a stop which passengers can get on or get off the service.

So Virgin Trains are quite in the right here and you for reasons I can't understand why cannot understand why you are in the wrong.

Any passenger who boards a Virgin Trains, LNER or GWR service who intends to travel to Watford Junction/Milton Keynes, Stevenage or Reading where the train is pick up only at these stations should be charged a brand new ticket from London to the first station where passengers can get on or get off be it Nuneaton/Rugby/Crewe, Peterborough/Grantham or Swindon/Oxford as there are alternative services available which are valid to be used.

Much though I agree that this is the intention of the rules, the NRCoT simply do not deal with different 'kinds' of calls. As stated above (and agreed by previous Virgin staff), if the train ends up calling and the passenger has somehow got on (e.g. barrier unstaffed), there is nothing the TOC can do but perhaps verbally reprimand the passenger. If the train ends up not calling, then indeed they are liable for the penalties outlined.

 

[Wallsendmag]

If you know all the answers why bother asking the question?