Plain Clothes Inspectors at Manchester Victoria

[Bevan Price]

Because that is clearly reasonable force! I have a feeling if you did that then it would be you in court!

So - people are expected to do nothing when somebody behaves in a manner that could be reasonably construed as a possible attempt to assault or rob them ??

 

[crehld]

I think that is a very sad commentary on the direction that society has been heading for a very long time. While I understand the reason for no-touch policies to exist, and agree fully that people should be free from unwanted touches, it is completely unjustified that someone would be fired for tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention.

I quite agree but it is nevertheless the reality we live in.

Most organizations have strict no contact policies. They are there to not only protect customers/passengers, but also to protect individual members of staff from facing false accusations of assault and inappropriate behaviour and to protect companies from the Lawyers4U 'sue, sue, sue' brigade.

 

[HarleyDavidson]

Personally I think those who're getting all het up about things should take a....

 

[hounddog]

You're quite correct; this forum us amusing. I particularly enjoy how anyone raising a legitimate concern about he actions of the railway industry or its staff is immediately labelled a troll or anti rail.

What was that about a 'like' button?

 

[221129]

So - people are expected to do nothing when somebody behaves in a manner that could be reasonably construed as a possible attempt to assault or rob them ??

I think you need to get a grip! A tap on the shoulder is hardly a justifiable reason to seriously assault someone!

 

[Darandio]

I particularly enjoy how anyone raising a legitimate concern about he actions of the railway industry or its staff is immediately labelled a troll or anti rail.

Yet the latter hasn't cropped up or been thrown at anyone in this thread, you mentioned it first.

Oh, and it was all because someone was tapped on their shoulder. Big deal.

 

[Minilad]

Once again a quick trip to the real world is required for some methinks

 

[crehld]

Yet the latter hasn't cropped up or been thrown at anyone in this thread, you mentioned it first.

Nope, not me guv:

Troll by name & by nature perchance? You really do need to get a grip!.

Oh, and it was all because someone was tapped on their shoulder. Big deal.

Perhaps this is all bluster. Perhaps we are all over reacting. The majority seem to be of this opinion so I'll happily concede the point, safe in the knowledge that tapping members of railway staff (or indeed anyone I don't know) on the shoulder is an entirely appropriate way of gaining their attention.

 

[Darandio]

Nope, not me guv:

The latter was 'anti rail', nobody else had said it.

 

[tony_mac]

The majority seem to be of this opinion so I'll happily concede the point, safe in the knowledge that tapping members of railway staff (or indeed anyone I don't know) on the shoulder is an entirely appropriate way of gaining their attention.

Perhaps it lies somewhere in the range between 'entirely appropriate' and 'entirely inappropriate'...

No, I don't think it's ideal, and not something I would normally do, but it's not something I could consider getting remotely worked-up about.

 

[Starmill]

A tap on the shoulder is obviously fine but some touching of customers plainly is not.

Where do you draw the line? Drawing it at no touching means everyone can be clear and nothing is open to interpretation, so it's easier for employers to enforce. Given we're only discussing staff checking tickets, it's no great disadvantage to their ability to do their job so I'm absolutely fine with it.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

....Yeah next to Platform 6 I think? They lead to the McDonalds, or there is a tunnel out towards Cheetham Hill. Once you're through these doors, I'd assume you're either on the M.E.N Arena's land or the Car Park's land, given there are car park ticket machines. I got stopped halfway between the McDonalds and the stairs where you walk up.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I think my point may have been missed here though - why was there never any permanent ticket inspectors put here? It's not like a rarely used exit I always see a lot of people coming through them. I don't understand the logic of trying to catch people in the act rather than just completely stopping it. The amount of times there's no one there at all...

The doors to the McDonalds and Arena are emergency exits for the Arena (and were marked that way last time I saw them), they are not for use by railway passengers. The doors to the car park are similarly emergency exits only. Both these sets of doors are due to have maglocks fitted and are currently only available as an exit because the Arena (it hasn't been the MEN for a while now) have apparently been dragging their feet because it is a convenient way to disperse the crowds from an event (and they don't have to care about lots of people arriving at the ticket barriers, with no tickets, trying to get out).

 

[tony_mac]

You mean here?
'Access to M.E.N Arena and NCP Car Park'
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MCV/objectvalues/2475-0000155.html

• This is an entrance and exit.
• There is no safe crossing.
• There are double entry doors.
• The doorway is wide enough for all users.
• The door(s) open both ways.
• Door handles are within reach of all users.
• Wheelchair users can use the entrance unaided.

Because that doesn't look like an emergency exit only

 

[323235]

Last time I checked Manchester Victoria wasn't a bustling nightclub.

And a member of staff conducting their duties in an official capacity and representing their organization is very different from an individual who is responsible (and for the record I'd be very wary of touching a stranger's shoulder in a Manchester club - even if were trying to help).

You're quite correct; this forum us amusing. I particularly enjoy how anyone raising a legitimate concern about he actions of the railway industry or its staff is immediately labelled a troll or anti rail.

Here , here ,

There is a time and a place for tapping someone on a shoulder and I don't think this kind of situation warrants it given the nature of the job. I have certainly never been tapped on the shoulder by a revenue inspector carrying out spot checks or barrier checks and never seen such behaviour.

 

[Mag_seven]

You mean here?
'Access to M.E.N Arena and NCP Car Park'
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MCV/objectvalues/2475-0000155.html

• This is an entrance and exit.
• There is no safe crossing.
• There are double entry doors.
• The doorway is wide enough for all users.
• The door(s) open both ways.
• Door handles are within reach of all users.
• Wheelchair users can use the entrance unaided.

Because that doesn't look like an emergency exit only

The whole issue of the status of this exit was discussed in this thread where the OP went through these doors looking for somewhere to purchase a ticket and was mugged (I can't think of a better word) by plain clothed inspectors.

 

[reb0118]

So when I am trying to get past passengers of the headphone addicted persuasion on my way to open the doors, what do the human rights hand wringers on here suggest I do to get past them having tried to ask audibly 3 times?

I usually give them a right good nip on the left buttock before sneaking round on the right (blind) side. Usually works a treat.

 

[Antman]

I think you're getting far too carried away....again.



And let's assume they do it to someone who is deaf, how are they supposed to do it without tapping them on the shoulder? Jump out in front and scare the living daylights out of them.

This thread is yet another shining example of this forum whereby a molehill takes on a tremendous growth spurt. It's usually the same old names making it grow as well.

Carried away?

Do you think a police officer would tap somebody on the shoulder and risk startling them? No they would be a bit more professional and if an "excuse me sir" didn't have the desired effect they would catch the person up and approach them without startling them.

 

[XC90]

He shouldn't have tapped you on the shoulder, I would have asked for his name and reported him for his unprofessional conduct

Or Assault. Get him fired, just before Xmas too. Make his family suffer. Lose the car, house, lifestyle. Consign him to a life of weekends seeing the kids in his 1 bedroom flat after the divorce.

Some people just want to feel the power - tap tap, you're fired!

 

[AnonymousUser1]

I wonder what the view of those working in the industry is about passengers tapping a member of railway staff on the shoulder? Is that acceptable?

On a more serious note, a member of staff engaging any deliberate physical contact, even a simple tap on the shoulder, is displaying an alarming lack of judgement and professionalism. In my view it is unwarranted and unprofessional. Not only does it go against all social norms and conventions (namely that you should be free to go about your business without the fear of random strangers touching you) but they have also put themselves at risk of being accused of inappropriate behaviour.

Rubbish

If I were to come into contact with any of my students, even as something as 'innocent' as a tap on the shoulder, it would be a swift disciplinary hearing followed by a P45.

not that old chestnut , i've seen teachers strike and restrain students in the last few years ... oddly enough no P45s were forthcoming as it was reasonable force to protect the victim of the battery that the student was committing .

also in my role in healthcare we routinely hasve patients / residents who are restrain and deprived of their liberty in line with agreed care plans and organisational policy. by the nature of the clinical setting these peopel are 'vulnerable adults' .

unfortunately i have a rather opinion of the standards of knowledge of this aspect of the law among people who work in education after dismantling an entire training session gevien by someone from an education background on child and vulnarable adult protection .

The standard professional and polite way of asking to see someone's ticket is "excuse me sir/madam, May I see you ticket please?" No physical contact required. If there is no response (say, for example because they are not heard) then positing oneself between the passenger and the exit will probably produce the desired outcome.

I would expect most TOCs to have a strict policy on this. Not least to protect the staff concerned from any false allegations of assault and to protect the company from the litigation squad.

why does an organisation need protection from made up bollocks
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Carried away?

Do you think a police officer would tap somebody on the shoulder and risk startling them? No they would be a bit more professional and if an "excuse me sir" didn't have the desired effect they would catch the person up and approach them without startling them.

Police offiocers routinely take hold of individuals who they wish to speak with especially if there is reasonable suspicion of an offence and/or it;s a loud or confusing situation .

 

[Clip]

I'd give you that (they have people there) but this happened once and I use it almost everyday. Other times I go, there is no one there.

The idea is to be random to put people off from risking it.

 

[185]

A tap on the shoulder is obviously fine

It does make me wonder that if staff, albeit plain clothed have had to tap on someone's shoulder to get their attention, how many times had they already asked for a ticket prior to that point?

 

[matt_world2004]

I have been "tapped" a few times by a customer and I must admit that I found in incredibally jarring it felt like an invasion of personal space. So I have never done it

 

[hairyhandedfool]

You mean here?
'Access to M.E.N Arena and NCP Car Park'
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/SME/html/NRE_MCV/objectvalues/2475-0000155.html

• This is an entrance and exit.
• There is no safe crossing.
• There are double entry doors.
• The doorway is wide enough for all users.
• The door(s) open both ways.
• Door handles are within reach of all users.
• Wheelchair users can use the entrance unaided.

Because that doesn't look like an emergency exit only

Some of the pages on NRES, particularly relating to station information, are more than two years out of date, other information is simply not correct. You want to believe NRES is always right you go ahead, I can't stop you.

 

[Tetchytyke]

While I understand the reason for no-touch policies to exist, and agree fully that people should be free from unwanted touches, it is completely unjustified that someone would be fired for tapping someone on the shoulder to get their attention.

Who talked about getting the RPI fired?

As for all these people saying I'm an "anti-railway troll" for thinking the RPI to be unprofessional, aggressive and rude, how many staff are happy when passengers get their attention by tapping them on the shoulder or clicking their fingers rather than using the mouths they were born with?

Thought so.

 

[miami]

Police offiocers routinely take hold of individuals who they wish to speak with especially if there is reasonable suspicion of an offence and/or it;s a loud or confusing situation .

Constables have specific rights, responsibilities and training when it comes to detaining people.

Am I displaying "an alarming lack of judgement and professionalism" when someone leaves there debit card on the bar and walks off with there drinks and I lean over and tap there shoulder?

Yes, someone with judgement and professionalism would say their, not there

Was this a TOC RPI or one of their "security firm" rentathugs? The latter are hardly known for acting professionally.

Assuming this is some burly plain-clothes bloke with a "id card" I'd also be legging it.

I have been "tapped" a few times by a customer and I must admit that I found in incredibally jarring it felt like an invasion of personal space. So I have never done it

I agree, tapping someone on the shoulder is just not on. It's rude, raises the stakes, invites aggression. Far better to approach from front.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some of the pages on NRES, particularly relating to station information, are more than two years out of date, other information is simply not correct. You want to believe NRES is always right you go ahead, I can't stop you.

Is there now clear signage on the doors that they must not be used for exit from the station? (Having emergency exit signs does not count; these are found on plenty of doors that are also the normal access/egress).

If not, why not?

 

[najaB]

Who talked about getting the RPI fired?

Certainly not me. My post quoted and was a direct reply to crehld's comment on what would happen in his workplace. Please don't quote my posts out of context.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Certainly not me. My post quoted and was a direct reply to crehld's comment on what would happen in his workplace. Please don't quote my posts out of context.

Ah yes, so they did. Sorry!

 

[NorthernSpirit]

Or Assault. Get him fired, just before Christmas too. Make his family suffer. Lose the car, house, lifestyle. Consign him to a life of weekends seeing the kids in his 1 bedroom flat after the divorce.

Some people just want to feel the power - tap tap, you're fired!

My mate has been tapped on the shoulder in the past and he didn't like it, he wanted to punch them after they tapped him

 

[island]

Personally I think those who're getting all het up about things should take a....

Precisely. This forum is known to occasionally overreact but this side discussion is out of all proportion.