Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[Chester1]

If you read above, after the upgrade, Oxford Road will be just 200 metres from Deansgate. 11 car Pendolino's are longer than that.

The platform ends would be about 200m apart but the actual interchange would be far longer, both stations are on viaducts and between them is a row of buildings, a skyscraper, a canal and two crossroads.

As Watcher Zero points out its not that straight forward. The platforms would be about 280m long and most services would use the east end of the station because thats where all facilities are. Assuming a western entrance is built it is still going to be several hundred metres walk from train to tram and Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop is accessed by a lift or stairs on the side of the viaduct. The roads are some of the busiest in Manchester too. It would replace an arrangement that is effectively one interchange station with one that would take 5-10 minutes depending on passengers mobility. The only arrangement that would be comparable would be a walkway from the western end of Oxford Road alongside the viaduct and across to Deansgate which would be very difficult due recent and planned developments. Simply closing the station and telling people to use Oxford Road will not happen, especially with 5 skyscrappers under construction close to Deansgate Station and several more with planning permission. It could be done but I bet the cost would make other capacity options better value.

Edit:

Build a sky bridge.

That is the solution but the route and cost would be expensive. Does @Joseph_Locke think its a viable option?

 

[Greybeard33]

As Watcher Zero points out its not that straight forward. The platforms would be about 280m long and most services would use the east end of the station because thats where all facilities are. Assuming a western entrance is built it is still going to be several hundred metres walk from train to tram and Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop is accessed by a lift or stairs on the side of the viaduct. The roads are some of the busiest in Manchester too. It would replace an arrangement that is effectively one interchange station with one that would take 5-10 minutes depending on passengers mobility. The only arrangement that would be comparable would be a walkway from the western end of Oxford Road alongside the viaduct and across to Deansgate which would be very difficult due recent and planned developments. Simply closing the station and telling people to use Oxford Road will not happen, especially with 5 skyscrappers under construction close to Deansgate Station and several more with planning permission. It could be done but I bet the cost would make other capacity options better value.

Edit:



That is the solution but the route and cost would be expensive. Does @Joseph_Locke think its a viable option?

Of the 14tphpd that now pass through Deansgate, only 4tph westbound and 5tph eastbound actually call at the station. For most destinations it is necessary or quicker to change at least once, in many cases doubling back from Oxford Road. The gaps between services from Oxford Road to Deansgate are up to 25 minutes.

I often walk between Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink and Oxford Road. It is only 750m and takes less than 10 minutes. There is only one major road to cross, the A5103 Albion Street, and the traffic signals prioritise pedestrians (alternatively the Rochdale Canal towpath offers an underpass). Whitworth Street West carries little traffic and is easy to cross.

The elevated walkway from Deansgate-Castlefield provides level access to the eastbound Deansgate platform, but it is necessary to negotiate two flights of stairs/lifts to visit the ticket office or get to the westbound platform.

To replace the current limited service from Deansgate, I do not see how there can be a viable business case for anything more costly than a western exit from Oxford Road to Whitworth Street W, which would shave a minute or two off the walk to Deansgate-Castlefield. Just reduce Deansgate to a "parliamentary" service.

 

[Class 170101]

I think the increase in traffic due to the Airport spur put at end to that.
There used to be an early morning Cross Country Service that went that way - it did until about 12-months ago

Still is one a day each way. 1st departure from Manchester and last arrival into Manchester run via Styal. They also both run via Alsager.

 

[Altfish]

Still is one a day each way. 1st departure from Manchester and last arrival into Manchester run via Styal. They also both run via Alsager.

I stand corrected.

 

[Chester1]

Of the 14tphpd that now pass through Deansgate, only 4tph westbound and 5tph eastbound actually call at the station. For most destinations it is necessary or quicker to change at least once, in many cases doubling back from Oxford Road. The gaps between services from Oxford Road to Deansgate are up to 25 minutes.

I often walk between Deansgate-Castlefield Metrolink and Oxford Road. It is only 750m and takes less than 10 minutes. There is only one major road to cross, the A5103 Albion Street, and the traffic signals prioritise pedestrians (alternatively the Rochdale Canal towpath offers an underpass). Whitworth Street West carries little traffic and is easy to cross.

The elevated walkway from Deansgate-Castlefield provides level access to the eastbound Deansgate platform, but it is necessary to negotiate two flights of stairs/lifts to visit the ticket office or get to the westbound platform.

To replace the current limited service from Deansgate, I do not see how there can be a viable business case for anything more costly than a western exit from Oxford Road to Whitworth Street W, which would shave a minute or two off the walk to Deansgate-Castlefield. Just reduce Deansgate to a "parliamentary" service.

That is still adding time to peoples journeys while a station at Cornbrook and a Metrolink extension to Eccles railway station would reduce them and mean fewer people traveling into the city centre. I have walked from Deansgate platforms 1 and 2 to the tram stop on numerous occasions, its quick, straight forward and doesn't involve traffic or getting wet during Manchesters typical rainy day.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

That is still adding time to peoples journeys while a station at Cornbrook and a Metrolink extension to Eccles railway station would reduce them and mean fewer people traveling into the city centre.

Ever stood on Cornbrook tram station in winter with a cold wind blowing?

 

[Altfish]

Ever stood on Cornbrook tram station in winter with a cold wind blowing?

Must admit, I avoid it whenever possible. It is bleak, good job trams are no more than 12 minutes.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

That is the solution but the route and cost would be expensive. Does @Joseph_Locke think its a viable option?

I do.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Ever stood on Cornbrook tram station in winter with a cold wind blowing?

It's a perfect storm for being open to the elements. High up, no sides and no trees around.

 

[Chester1]

Must admit, I avoid it whenever possible. It is bleak, good job trams are no more than 12 minutes.

It's a perfect storm for being open to the elements. High up, no sides and no trees around.

There are plenty of developments planned in the area which will shield the site a bit. There is enough space to build decent waiting rooms at the tram stop and a railway station. Its certainly preferable to going from say Widnes to Oxford Road, walking and taking the tram from St Peters Square. With the new zonal fares system being introduced on Metrolink it would be cheaper too.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Ever stood on Cornbrook tram station in winter with a cold wind blowing?

Must admit, I avoid it whenever possible. It is bleak, good job trams are no more than 12 minutes.

It's a perfect storm for being open to the elements. High up, no sides and no trees around.

Then provide a fully enclosed, heated waiting room. If you were turning it into a heavy-rail interchange to replace Deansgate NR then you'd want to upgrade the facilities anyway.

Would a Cornbrook NR station, being that bit further from the crowded Oxford Road core, be able to sustain more frequent calls (than Deansgate) on the heavy-rail side?

 

[Altfish]

There are plenty of developments planned in the area which will shield the site a bit. There is enough space to build decent waiting rooms at the tram stop and a railway station. Its certainly preferable to going from say Widnes to Oxford Road, walking and taking the tram from St Peters Square. With the new zonal fares system being introduced on Metrolink it would be cheaper too.

I still think building an interchange at Cornbrook would be very expensive, certainly as expensive as 15/16 at Piccadilly. The two viaducts are too close together, it will at least involved moving the Liverpool bound line out on a new viaduct and building an island platform.
It might be cheaper building an interchange at Pomona.
also doesn't solve the problems with the Preston/Bolton traffic.

 

[Chester1]

I still think building an interchange at Cornbrook would be very expensive, certainly as expensive as 15/16 at Piccadilly. The two viaducts are too close together, it will at least involved moving the Liverpool bound line out on a new viaduct and building an island platform. It also doesn't solve the problems with the Preston/Bolton traffic.

The station could be put diagonal to the tram stop. There is no way that a heavy rai station at Cornbrook would cost anything remotely near the £200m of platforms 15 and 16. The CLC is not on a viaduct at Cornbrook, its an earth embankment thats probably 3m higher than the neighbouring land and maybe 1m below the level of the tram stop.

 

[Ianno87]

That is still adding time to peoples journeys while a station at Cornbrook and a Metrolink extension to Eccles railway station would reduce them and mean fewer people traveling into the city centre. I have walked from Deansgate platforms 1 and 2 to the tram stop on numerous occasions, its quick, straight forward and doesn't involve traffic or getting wet during Manchesters typical rainy day.

Adding an NR station at Cornbrook would of course slow down the journey of everybody off the CLC not going to Salford Quays...

 

[AndrewE]

There are plenty of developments planned in the area which will shield the site a bit.

That's as long as they don't have this effect:
https://www.newsflare.com/video/11937/weather-nature/blown-over-outside-bridgewater-place-leeds
It would take very careful design to avoid the problem.

 

[CJ]

About the Styal line, it looks like the fast services (VT, XC, ATW) have been going via this route today, atleast until this evening when they will re-route back via Stockport.

 

[Chester1]

Adding an NR station at Cornbrook would of course slow down the journey of everybody off the CLC not going to Salford Quays...

Or most of Metrolink. It wouldn't extend CLC stopper times because it would be a direct replacement for stopping at Deansgate. Stopping the express Northern Airport service would add a couple of minutes. It would take away nearly half of the stops at Deansgate in one go.

 

[MarkyT]

... a Metrolink extension to Eccles railway station

I think the existing arrangements at Eccles make a very viable interchange already, about 300m from Eccles station forecourt to the tram and bus station, all along a pedestrianised street with only a couple of minor access roads to cross, nothing like the major roads in Manchester centre, so maybe a 3 or 4 minute walk. If I was coming in from Liverpool to go to the Salford Quays area I would definitely change at Eccles, with a likely shorter journey time overall and probably a cheaper fare. The interchange might be improved further by perhaps placing some canopies over parts of the pedestrian street to shelter from the worst of the north west's weather.

The station could be put diagonal to the tram stop. There is no way that a heavy rai station at Cornbrook would cost anything remotely near the £200m of platforms 15 and 16. The CLC is not on a viaduct at Cornbrook, its an earth embankment thats probably 3m higher than the neighbouring land and maybe 1m below the level of the tram stop.

I'm not convinced yet another heavy rail station in the area is a good idea, mainly for journey time reasons. Metrolink already nicely segregates the local traffic from the longer distance, so beyond interchange, Cornbrook would be introducing duplication.

 

[MarkyT]

Or most of Metrolink. It wouldn't extend CLC stopper times because it would be a direct replacement for stopping at Deansgate. Stopping the express Northern Airport service would add a couple of minutes. It would take away nearly half of the stops at Deansgate in one go.

True, but the alternative of a west entrance for Oxford Road could plausibly remove ALL stops at Deansgate.

 

[Chester1]

I think the existing arrangements at Eccles make a very viable interchange already, about 300m from Eccles station forecourt to the tram and bus station, all along a pedestrianised street with only a couple of minor access roads to cross, nothing like the major roads in Manchester centre, so maybe a 3 or 4 minute walk. If I was coming in from Liverpool to go to the Salford Quays area I would definitely change at Eccles, with a likely shorter journey time overall and probably a cheaper fare. The interchange might be improved further by perhaps placing some canopies over parts of the pedestrian street to shelter from the worst of the north west's weather.



I'm not convinced yet another heavy rail station in the area is a good idea, mainly for journey time reasons. Metrolink already nicely segregates the local traffic from the longer distance, so beyond interchange, Cornbrook would be introducing duplication.

Eccles would depend on cost. A single track link like the Media City spur could cost ~£20m. I see your point though, stopping the Blackpool North EMU there would partially compensate removing Deansgate stops from Wigan-Alderley Edge. The advantage of a station at Cornbrook would be a reduction in city centre passengers. If it was part of closing Deansgate it wouldn't be an extra heavy rail station, it would be a replacement.

True, but the alternative of a west entrance for Oxford Road could plausibly remove ALL stops at Deansgate.

A western entrance on its own would add several minutes to journey times instead of cutting them. A skylink would be a good solution but I remain to be convinced that would be built if Deansgate closed.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

A western entrance on its own would add several minutes to journey times instead of cutting them. A skylink would be a good solution but I remain to be convinced that would be built if Deansgate closed.

But what if the performance gained from removing Deansgate (which is badly placed, too close to Castlefield Junction for an efficient operation) was enough to pay for it?

Also , by improving the interchange at Eccles on the Chat Moss and adding a CLC Cornbrook interchange, when Metrolink final gets to Salford Crescent you have an interchange on every eastern approach.

 

[PR1Berske]

Build a sky bridge.

We're British, we don't build sky bridges.

 

[LOL The Irony]

We're British, we don't build sky bridges.

The UNESCO judges will have to be very drunk to give Manchester World Heritage status at this point so we might as well build something that might solve that in a few hundred years.

 

[Greybeard33]

Or most of Metrolink. It wouldn't extend CLC stopper times because it would be a direct replacement for stopping at Deansgate. Stopping the express Northern Airport service would add a couple of minutes. It would take away nearly half of the stops at Deansgate in one go.

Westbound, only one of the two CLC stoppers currently calls at Deansgate. The other one is chased into Lime Street by the Norwich train, with no margin for an extra stop. If all three Northern services called at Cornbrook it would delay the EMT too, so three of the four CLC services would have increased journey time. Just for the benefit of a limited number of passengers transferring from Metrolink.

Metrolink passengers from the Ashton line would still change at Piccadilly, and anyone going to Liverpool from the Metrolink Bury or Oldham lines would still find it quicker to change to a TPE service at Victoria.

(Edit: under Northern's current emergency timetable, one of the eastbound CLC stoppers, the xx19 from Lime Street, also skips Deansgate, although the WTT shows it calling. So currently there are only 4tph in each direction calling at Deansgate. Northern's website gives no indication when/if this call might be restored. It would increase punctuality risk to the EMT, TPE and ATW services that follow the stopper into Oxford Road.)

 

[LOL The Irony]

stopping the Blackpool North EMU there would partially compensate removing Deansgate stops from Wigan-Alderley Edge.

The heap of s*** Northern has turned that into, it can loose a couple of stops, not gain more! Next time I go to Blackpool by train, I'm waiting for the TPE service to Scotland.

 

[Chester1]

Westbound, only one of the two CLC stoppers currently calls at Deansgate. The other one is chased into Lime Street by the Norwich train, with no margin for an extra stop. If all three Northern services called at Cornbrook it would delay the EMT too, so three of the four CLC services would have increased journey time. Just for the benefit of a limited number of passengers transferring from Metrolink.

Metrolink passengers from the Ashton line would still change at Piccadilly, and anyone going to Liverpool from the Metrolink Bury or Oldham lines would still find it quicker to change to a TPE service at Victoria.

The heap of s*** Northern has turned that into, it can loose a couple of stops, not gain more! Next time I go to Blackpool by train, I'm waiting for the TPE service to Scotland.

Its fair to assume the current timetable won't be around by the time any new station or Metrolink extension could be built! The best solution would be a Oxford Road - Deansgate-Castlefield sky bridge. @Joseph_Locke is confident it is viable and he is well informed. I would guess its dependant on Piccadilly 15 and 16 but perhaps it would be possible to rebuild Oxford Road and build a sky bridge while leaving space to extend platforms 1-4.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Sorry, got to ask, sky bridge as in the type of people mover at Gatwick or Birmingham?

Don't forget Manchester's tradition of very long platforms joining stations, I don't recall which but it was in the Guinness Book of Records. Google says Exchange linked to Victoria.

 

[Greybeard33]

Eccles would depend on cost. A single track link like the Media City spur could cost ~£20m. I see your point though, stopping the Blackpool North EMU there would partially compensate removing Deansgate stops from Wigan-Alderley Edge. The advantage of a station at Cornbrook would be a reduction in city centre passengers. If it was part of closing Deansgate it wouldn't be an extra heavy rail station, it would be a replacement.

The Metrolink line through Salford Quays is appallingly slow - nearly 25 minutes from Eccles to Deansgate-Castlefield! No-one would use an Eccles heavy rail interchange to go beyond the Quays.

The Blackpool EMU will be rerouted via Bolton instead of Eccles when the wires are up. The only additional Northern services that could call at Eccles, as well as the existing hourly Lime Street stopper, would be the planned Northern Connect regional express DMUs - Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere, Leeds/Bradford to Chester, or Leeds/Bradford to Liverpool. The latter two will be from Victoria not Piccadilly.

I agree the ideal solution would be an elevated walkway/travellator between Oxford Road and Deansgate-Castlefield.

 

[Chester1]

Sorry, got to ask, sky bridge as in the type of people mover at Gatwick or Birmingham?

Don't forget Manchester's tradition of very long platforms joining stations, I don't recall which but it was in the Guinness Book of Records. Google says Exchange linked to Victoria.

Not a people mover, just a foot bridge, most likely including a travelator. The Skylink connecting Manchester Airport railway station with the termimals would be the best UK example but it would be attached next to and / or over the railway viaduct then across to Deansgate-Castlefield tram stop.

What is now Victoria platform 3 connected into a platform at Exchange. Older members of the forum should be able to give the full details. Its not a comparable situation. Any sky bridge would probably result in the demolition of Deansgate station.

The Metrolink line through Salford Quays is appallingly slow - nearly 25 minutes from Eccles to Deansgate-Castlefield! No-one would use an Eccles heavy rail interchange to go beyond the Quays.

The Blackpool EMU will be rerouted via Bolton instead of Eccles when the wires are up. The only additional Northern services that could call at Eccles, as well as the existing hourly Lime Street stopper, would be the planned Northern Connect regional express DMUs - Manchester Airport to Barrow/Windermere, Leeds/Bradford to Chester, or Leeds/Bradford to Liverpool. The latter two will be from Victoria not Piccadilly.

I agree the ideal solution would be an elevated walkway/travellator between Oxford Road and Deansgate-Castlefield.

I guess it depends on how many people travel to Salford Quays from further afield. Diverting some passengers away from the city centre and busiest part of the Metrolink line would have benefits.

 

[LOL The Irony]

The Blackpool EMU will be rerouted via Bolton instead of Eccles when the wires are up.

IIRC they are staying via Wigan and the TPE services are going via Bolton and don't call at Wigan anymore in anticipation of the eventual switch (December if things go correctly).