Platform 15 and 16 project at Manchester Piccadilly.

[a_c_skinner]

Ah, yes, the big bridge that crosses Manchester Airport. Victoria to Exchange I'd need to look on an old map to make sense, but the idea was there, more as a local tradition than a suggestion.

 

[Greybeard33]

IIRC they are staying via Wigan and the TPE services are going via Bolton and don't call at Wigan anymore in anticipation of the eventual switch (December if things go correctly).

In the original May 2018 timetable, before the electrification delay, the TPE Scottish services and the Northern Airport to Blackpool were both to be routed via Bolton, with the new hourly Airport to Barrow/Windermere taking over the Wigan calls. Will this not still be the eventual plan, though probably now postponed until May 2019?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Will this not still be the eventual plan, though probably now postponed until May 2019?

As far as I know, TPE wants to use Bolton ASAP and Northern are going to introduce their May timetable in December.

 

[snowball]

What is now Victoria platform 3 connected into a platform at Exchange. Older members of the forum should be able to give the full details.

What is now platform 3 at Victoria, and was then platform 11, together with patform 3 at Exchange, formed a long continuous platform, the longest in Europe. I don't remember it myself as I didn't begin to be interested in railways until after Exchange had closed.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is now platform 3 at Victoria, and was then platform 11, together with patform 3 at Exchange, formed a long continuous platform, the longest in Europe. I don't remember it myself as I didn't begin to be interested in railways until after Exchange had closed.

The walk along the entire length of that long platform is one that I often made in the 1950s in my 11+ days. Saturday nights saw the middle section full of the long newspaper vans awaiting to load the vans from the newspaper print houses.

 

[WatcherZero]

IIRC they are staying via Wigan and the TPE services are going via Bolton and don't call at Wigan anymore in anticipation of the eventual switch (December if things go correctly).

Governments postponed the December timetable change for about 2/3rds of tocs (including Northern and TPE) till the Spring change next year to give the timetablers a chance to catch up.

 

[Chester1]

Governments postponed the December timetable change for about 2/3rds of tocs (including Northern and TPE) till the Spring change next year to give the timetablers a chance to catch up.

Wasn't the timings and limited stops of the route via Wigan chosen to allow a mid timetable switch to the Bolton route when it was thought the electrification would be done this summer?

 

[LOL The Irony]

Governments postponed the December timetable change for about 2/3rds of tocs (including Northern and TPE) till the Spring change next year to give the timetablers a chance to catch up.

Wasn't the timings and limited stops of the route via Wigan chosen to allow a mid timetable switch to the Bolton route when it was thought the electrification would be done this summer?

Which is why I said December because they were supposed to change in May.

 

[LOL The Irony]

In fact, I believe that there is an Airport - Preston service that I saw at Piccadilly and then at Preston that was there before the turd on rails 319 was. So I think it's to keep the path open rather than just leaving it.

 

[Greybeard33]

In fact, I believe that there is an Airport - Preston service that I saw at Piccadilly and then at Preston that was there before the turd on rails 319 was. So I think it's to keep the path open rather than just leaving it.

The Airport to Preston DMU service, which extends in some hours to Barrow, is a curtailed version of the planned hourly Airport to Cumbria, which in different hours would have variously terminated at Barrow, Windermere or Lancaster, and would have been routed via Wigan.

The current Bolton routing of this service has enabled the Airport to Blackpool to run via Wigan and use 319s. However, I do not know if this is a straight path swap, such that the Blackpools could switch to the Bolton route through a Variation to the current timetable rather than waiting for the next major recast.

 

[Amstel]

As I’ve said before, I’m a regular user of Deansgate, but, in the greater scheme of things, where far more trains are crossing Manchester nowadays and getting held up there, it’s not important.

The concentration should be on getting Platforms 15 and 16 built and getting rid of the dreadful welcome to Manchester we have now. For that matter, I’d close down Salford Central, too.

44 million people use the big 3 stations of Piccadilly, Oxford Road and Victoria, a hundred times as many as either Deansgate or Salford Central which are sitting on key corridors. Close them down and increase the throughput – most of us want more frequent trains, not save 100 yards walk.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Salford Central isn't in good heart, but it is a big enough site to not be such a bottle neck as Deansgate (more tracks!) and it is further (a bit) from other stations.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Salford Central isn't in good heart, but it is a big enough site to not be such a bottle neck as Deansgate (more tracks!) and it is further (a bit) from other stations.

The business area now in existence around the evirons of Salford Central station including Spinningfields must warrant the continued existence of that station.

 

[KevinTurvey]

Re Salford Central, I actually think this should be upgraded and more trains call there instead, as its right next to a load of offices, residential, courts, etc a short walk across the bridge, and more are being built, and it could effectively be a partial replacement for Deansgate passengers, albeit via the other route.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Yes, it was a total hole last time I went there, but it is a good rail location for a good deal of the area. It has the potential to be bigger without land take and should be a good asset. It should be part of the plan.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

The business area now in existence around the evirons of Salford Central station including Spinningfields must warrant the continued existence of that station.

Re Salford Central, I actually think this should be upgraded and more trains call there instead, as its right next to a load of offices, residential, courts, etc a short walk across the bridge, and more are being built, and it could effectively be a partial replacement for Deansgate passengers, albeit via the other route.

Indeed exactly my thought too. No way should Salford Central close

 

[Amstel]

I knew I’d get this reaction to Salford Central, that’s why I added it. Nobody ever uses it. Think about what you’re saying: there are 5 stations in Manchester and it gets 1% of the passengers. Suburban places like Knutsford get more and they only get 1 train per hour. I work in Spinningfields; I don’t know anyone who uses Salford Central (most use Piccadilly or Oxford Road), and it’s only a few minutes walk from Victoria.

 

[LOL The Irony]

I knew I’d get this reaction to Salford Central, that’s why I added it. Nobody ever uses it. Think about what you’re saying: there are 5 stations in Manchester and it gets 1% of the passengers. Suburban places like Knutsford get more and they only get 1 train per hour. I work in Spinningfields; I don’t know anyone who uses Salford Central (most use Piccadilly or Oxford Road), and it’s only a few minutes walk from Victoria.

Closing a station is a pain in the rear and the effort spent should be equal or less to that of the benefit of closing a station, ie: Deansgate. It's only going to be 200 metres from Oxford Road and only has 2tph serving it.

 

[MarkyT]

With five platforms in its final configuration, Salford Central won't be a major growth and reliability constraint like Deansgate. All trains could stop there easily in the future and there's plenty of development in the vicinity. Perhaps a better service would attract more custom.

 

[158756]

With five platforms in its final configuration, Salford Central won't be a major growth and reliability constraint like Deansgate. All trains could stop there easily in the future and there's plenty of development in the vicinity. Perhaps a better service would attract more custom.

Salford Central is already served by every train passing through the platforms - but usage is very low. The additional platforms (the money for which has already been spent, with no platforms) would likely see few trains - TPE won't stop there - and fewer passengers. There is development ongoing, but it's tiny compared to the size of the city centre, where most people still won't use the station.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I guess it depends on how many people travel to Salford Quays from further afield. Diverting some passengers away from the city centre and busiest part of the Metrolink line would have benefits.

You have made many posts regarding the need to connect Salford Quays with the CLC route but just how many people are making that journey? I don't doubt that Salford Quays is becoming an increasingly important destination in its own right but how many passengers are already passing through the city centre as an unavoidable part of their journey? I wonder if you are placing too much importance on a relatively small flow: more information needed!

I knew I’d get this reaction to Salford Central, that’s why I added it. Nobody ever uses it. Think about what you’re saying: there are 5 stations in Manchester and it gets 1% of the passengers. Suburban places like Knutsford get more and they only get 1 train per hour. I work in Spinningfields; I don’t know anyone who uses Salford Central (most use Piccadilly or Oxford Road), and it’s only a few minutes walk from Victoria.

Actually more people use Salford Central than use Deansgate. What's more while many Deansgate users have Metrolink as an alternative to National Rail the same cannot be said about Salford Central users. Given that Salford Central will eventually have more platforms it can act as an interchange between the Salford Crescent line and the Chat Moss/Ordsall chord lines without creating a bottleneck. This interchange may become more important in the future as capacity constraints lead to restrictions on the number of trains operating via the Windsor Link: this is already an issue for Southport line passengers. Bottom line: Salford Central has value for the network going forward, Deansgate arguably does not.

 

[LOL The Irony]

You have to remember that closing a station isn't as simple as locking a door and telling trains not to stop there. You have to have a good reason to close it, yet again ie: Deansgate. It'll be only 200 yards from Oxford Road, is only served by 2tph in each direction and is a bottleneck on a major artery.

 

[Senex]

With five platforms in its final configuration, Salford Central won't be a major growth and reliability constraint like Deansgate. All trains could stop there easily in the future and there's plenty of development in the vicinity. Perhaps a better service would attract more custom.

Without the platforms of Salford Crescent in the way it might be possible to get a decent junction-layout there for better speeds. (And the platforms are too short for trains of a decent length in any case.)

 

[Altfish]

You have made many posts regarding the need to connect Salford Quays with the CLC route but just how many people are making that journey? I don't doubt that Salford Quays is becoming an increasingly important destination in its own right but how many passengers are already passing through the city centre as an unavoidable part of their journey? I wonder if you are placing too much importance on a relatively small flow: more information needed!

As someone who lives on the Altrincham tram line, I can confirm that a lot of people get out at Cornbrook and change to the Eccles line, presumably heading to Media City and Salford Quays. The Eccles/Media City Trams are well loaded with plenty getting on at Deansgate too. I can't be sure of the origins of their journey(s) but many come across the footbridge from the station.

 

[Chester1]

You have made many posts regarding the need to connect Salford Quays with the CLC route but just how many people are making that journey? I don't doubt that Salford Quays is becoming an increasingly important destination in its own right but how many passengers are already passing through the city centre as an unavoidable part of their journey? I wonder if you are placing too much importance on a relatively small flow: more information needed!



Actually more people use Salford Central than use Deansgate. What's more while many Deansgate users have Metrolink as an alternative to National Rail the same cannot be said about Salford Central users. Given that Salford Central will eventually have more platforms it can act as an interchange between the Salford Crescent line and the Chat Moss/Ordsall chord lines without creating a bottleneck. This interchange may become more important in the future as capacity constraints lead to restrictions on the number of trains operating via the Windsor Link: this is already an issue for Southport line passengers. Bottom line: Salford Central has value for the network going forward, Deansgate arguably does not.

I don't know numbers but plenty of people board Media City / Eccles trams at Deansgate-Castlefield. They are not just the interchange for Salford Quays but the Altrincham, Didsbury and Airport lines too. While the terminal stops also have heavy rail stations the intermediate ones don't.

I agree with upgrading Salford Central, I am surprised the government hasn't helped fund the rebuild as a sop to buy off stakeholders over delaying the decision on platforms 15 and 16. I believe the Ordsall Chord signals now block any western platform extension and eastern extension would easily blow the £20m budget. The platforms should be reopened at the maximum size without significant work (4 coaches). Its small fry for the government and eastern platform extensions can be done at a later date.

 

[158756]

I don't know numbers but plenty of people board Media City / Eccles trams at Deansgate-Castlefield. They are not just the interchange for Salford Quays but the Altrincham, Didsbury and Airport lines too. While the terminal stops also have heavy rail stations the intermediate ones don't.

Is the frequency at Deansgate really high enough to reliably connect off the tram which doesn't run to a public timetable? Why not carry on to Piccadilly?

I agree with upgrading Salford Central, I am surprised the government hasn't helped fund the rebuild as a sop to buy off stakeholders over delaying the decision on platforms 15 and 16. I believe the Ordsall Chord signals now block any western platform extension and eastern extension would easily blow the £20m budget. The platforms should be reopened at the maximum size without significant work (4 coaches). Its small fry for the government and eastern platform extensions can be done at a later date.

The £20m budget has been blown already. £40m was reported last year. It's a lot of money for no current service and a future service of at most 3tph, which would also stop half a mile away, and couldn't stop if more than 4 carriages

 

[Chester1]

Is the frequency at Deansgate really high enough to reliably connect off the tram which doesn't run to a public timetable? Why not carry on to Piccadilly?

The £20m budget has been blown already. £40m was reported last year. It's a lot of money for no current service and a future service of at most 3tph, which would also stop half a mile away, and couldn't stop if more than 4 carriages

CLC stoppers don't go to Piccadilly and Salford Quays, Altrincham and Didsbury lines have a service every 6 minutes so don't really need a public timetable.

I thought the £40m was for extending the platforms too? The station has 8tph: 1tph from Liverpool, 2tph Southport, 1tph Wigan (for Stalybridge), 1tph Kirkby, 1tph Blackburn, 1tph Clitheroe and 1tph Buckshaw. It will benefit from the lack of capacity through the Castlefield corridor for future services. Its half a mile away from Victoria but the area borders Manchester city centre and is undergoing huge development itself.

 

[Greybeard33]

I thought the £40m was for extending the platforms too? The station has 8tph: 1tph from Liverpool, 2tph Southport, 1tph Wigan (for Stalybridge), 1tph Kirkby, 1tph Blackburn, 1tph Clitheroe and 1tph Buckshaw. It will benefit from the lack of capacity through the Castlefield corridor for future services. Its half a mile away from Victoria but the area borders Manchester city centre and is undergoing huge development itself.

Actually only 7tph call at Salford Central. Liverpool services cannot stop - there are not (yet) any platforms on the Chat Moss lines. But I believe it is planned to increase to 4tph on the Atherton line, which would make 8tph at Central.

 

[mmh]

You have to remember that closing a station isn't as simple as locking a door and telling trains not to stop there. You have to have a good reason to close it, yet again ie: Deansgate. It'll be only 200 yards from Oxford Road, is only served by 2tph in each direction and is a bottleneck on a major artery.

That makes me wonder why Deansgate being there or not is such an issue. I've not used it in twenty years so I have no personal experience but why is it such a bottleneck on a two track line with few trains stopping? Poor timetabling? Unreliable timetable somewhere else (Piccadilly?)

It's a busy line but not that busy it should be unworkable. Elsewhere people would be arguing every train should stop there.

 

[PR1Berske]

Salford Central has the potential for growth and is large enough to allow alternative stopping patterns in the future. In contrast Deansgate is a squat bottleneck which puts a constraint on every single train from at least four different TOCs. I know which one I'd close.