please help - permitted routes

[clagmonster]

Condition 13 states that you may use:
"trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf page 10

Now, the shortest route by rail from Selby to Micklefield which passes through South Milford. It is signaled to full passenger standards, and is regularly used by passenger services. Clearly, this route can be used by scheduled passenger services, and it is the shortest such route. It just so happens that on a Sunday this route is not used by a scheduled passenger services, this doesn't mean that it can't be.

 

[34D]

Condition 13 states that you may use:
"trains which take the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services"
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf page 10

Now, the shortest route by rail from Selby to Micklefield which passes through South Milford. It is signaled to full passenger standards, and is regularly used by passenger services. Clearly, this route can be used by scheduled passenger services, and it is the shortest such route. It just so happens that on a Sunday this route is not used by a scheduled passenger services, this doesn't mean that it can't be.

You are abusing the phrase "the shortest route which can be used by scheduled passenger services".

I don't believe it requires one to consult ROTP to ensure what flexibility the track layout provides, but rather that it requires one to consult the timetable of scheduled services.

Do you really want to suggest that the shortest route from Hatfield & Stainforth to York is via Applehurst junction (shortest route via passenger-rated track, points fitted with FPLs etc) or may we refer to the timetable and see there are services H&S to Don and don to yrk?

 

[clagmonster]

I'll come to that. The National Routeing Guide provides greater rights. They say:
"CALCULATING SHORTEST DISTANCES
As the shortest route for any journey is always a permitted route, this can be
checked, and the distance between stations calculated, from the National Rail
Timetable. Mileages appear in the station column at the beginning of each
major table, except table 51. To arrive at the throughout distance for travel
between every station by any route, add mileages together for the
component parts of the journey by referring to the relevant timetables."
http://www.atoc.org/clientfiles/File/RSPDocuments/instructions.pdf

For the Stainforth-York example, you will not find the mileages in the National Rail Timetable. The shortest route you will be able to calculate using the National Rail Timetable is via Doncaster.

 

[sheff1]

Does it?

In my view, it does. Condition 13 starts with the words 'You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold ...' .

In the case in question, the ticket was from Selby to Micklefield. The ticket was sold for use on Sunday only. The shortest route which can be used by scheduled pasenger services (condition 13(ii)) on a Sunday would be either/both of via Leeds or via York - I have not checked the mileages

If the ticket Selby to Micklefield is not intended for use on either of those routes then it should not be sold dated for travel on a Sunday. Instead anyone wanting to make the journey on a Sunday should be sold two tickets (Selby to Leeds/York & Leeds/York to Micklefield). The fact that a Selby to Micklefield ticket is sold for use on a Sunday must mean that it is valid for travel on Sunday in line with Condition 13(ii).

In the same way that you should not be sold a ticket from Wigan to Rainford dated for use on a Sunday, as it would be impossible to use, you should not be sold a ticket from Selby to Micklefield dated for use on Sunday if it is impossible to use.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

In my view, it does. Condition 13 starts with the words 'You may travel between the stations shown on the ticket you hold ...' .

In the case in question, the ticket was from Selby to Micklefield. The ticket was sold for use on Sunday only. The shortest route which can be used by scheduled pasenger services (condition 13(ii)) on a Sunday would be either/both of via Leeds or via York - I have not checked the mileages

If the ticket Selby to Micklefield is not intended for use on either of those routes then it should not be sold dated for travel on a Sunday. Instead anyone wanting to make the journey on a Sunday should be sold two tickets (Selby to Leeds/York & Leeds/York to Micklefield). The fact that a Selby to Micklefield ticket is sold for use on a Sunday must mean that it is valid for travel on Sunday in line with Condition 13(ii)....

I don't mean to argue either way (I would rather the simplest explanation be the one to use), however, you have to define a 'scheduled passenger service' before you can argue about what they actually are, this has always been a problem with the use of the term.

 

[YorkshireRider]

Which ever way you look at it, as far as this example goes, you would be hard pushed to find a Northern or TPE guard who wouldnt just stamp the ticket and move on. (once you explained the situation if they didnt already know)

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Which ever way you look at it, as far as this example goes, you would be hard pushed to find a Northern or TPE guard who wouldnt just stamp the ticket and move on. (once you explained the situation if they didnt already know)

Indeed, I would be inclined to do the same for some of these examples, but that doesn't negate the fact that they are technically not valid.

 

[34D]

Could some kind person search on a couple of websites for Selby-Micklefield on a sunday, and see whether these cheap tickets are offered?

 

[YorkshireRider]

Yep, the East Coast website allows you to buy the £5.70 day return for this Sunday, offering options for changing at both York or Leeds.

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Yep, the East Coast website allows you to buy the £5.70 day return for this Sunday, offering options for changing at both York or Leeds.

NRES, often quoted on this forum as THE definitive source of information for the rail passenger thinks otherwise, and says you need to buy more than one ticket for the journey via either route.

The TPE mobile app won't even offer you that and says there are no journeys or tickets available for that date. I can't check the main websites easily as I am on my phone, but I think EC's website has got confused somewhere.

Incidentally I suspect that it is intended that the Any Permitted fare for this journey is meant to be valid via Leeds as it is the same price or higher than the SBY - LDS fare, it is just not technically valid and no one has put in any easements to override the normal routeing rules.