PlusBus Tickets

[Mike395]

In my area, Teesside, the two main bus companies use different ticket machines. Arriva seem to have the type that could read the QR / Aztec style tickets whereas Stagecoach you would have to show the driver the ticket. I heard a rumour a while ago from an ex bus driver colleague that Stagecoach were going to upgrade their machines again to the newer types.

Stagecoach are retrofitting barcode scanners to their buses, which appear to connect into existing ticket machines.

 

[bearhugger]

Stagecoach are retrofitting barcode scanners to their buses, which appear to connect into existing ticket machines.

That makes more sense re the retrofitting, seeing as they haven't had the new machines for *that* long enough to warrant major investment in brand new machines. I generally use a weekly Megarider in the app, which shows a aztec barcode on the screen but just show the driver my screen at present.

 

[Julie Gray]

The ticket machines on bus are being upgraded to read PlusBus e and m tickets. Ticketer (largest supplier) can scan the aztec code on bus, but is in the process of writing a fix so that it correctly reads the NLC code. Stagecoach, as mentioned, currently has barcode readers on limited services and is not ready for these to be included in the W Yorks trial.
There is a known issue with NFC clash in Ticketer machines where the barcode scanner and NFC reader are close together, so trying to scan a barcode can trigger the NFC reader (its faster than the barcde scanner) to open the wallet and, and then make a TOTO payment where the customer has given permissions.
Bus companies get around the clash by only allowing their barcode products in app, and suppressing the NFC reader in the device, which is relatively straightforward (a couple of lines of code and permission from Google/Apple/Samsung, which is simpler and quicker than you might expect)

 

[MrJeeves]

Bus companies get around the clash by only allowing their barcode products in app, and supressing the NFC reader in the device, which is relatively straightforward (a couple of lines of code and permission from Google/Apple/Samsung, which is simpler and quicker than you might expect)

Similarly, retailers (at least TrainSplit) get around this by enforcing that Google Wallet passes (I don't remember if it applies to Apple Wallet as well) disable NFC when being shown to prevent the same issue occurring on barcode readers within the TfL PAYG area.

 

[Julie Gray]

Similarly, retailers (at least TrainSplit) get around this by enforcing that Google Wallet passes (I don't remember if it applies to Apple Wallet as well) disable NFC when being shown to prevent the same issue occurring on barcode readers within the TfL PAYG area.

Yes, the NFC is disabled when the pass is in a wallet (any). But as far as we know (Independent Rail Retailers advice), rail apps don't suppress the NFC. We'd love to know if anyone knows differently?

 

[Haywain]

Yes, the NFC is disabled when the pass is in a wallet (any). But as far as we know (Independent Rail Retailers advice), rail apps don't suppress the NFC. We'd love to know if anyone knows differently?

As many people will just show the barcode as a pdf it cannot be assumed that NFC will be suppressed anyway.

 

[MrJeeves]

But as far as we know (Independent Rail Retailers advice), rail apps don't suppress the NFC. We'd love to know if anyone knows differently?

Yeah, I don't believe any do at the moment. The TrainSplit apps don't support any way of showing tickets within the app itself, but it is something that we are going to keep in mind if we do begin doing so.

As many people will just show the barcode as a pdf it cannot be assumed that NFC will be suppressed anyway.

Quite! I do imagine that most passengers using E-Tickets probably use wallet apps or the app's own ticket rendering feature, but you definitely cannot assume this to be the case as you point out.

It's certainly an interesting issue that needs to be worked around somehow.

 

[Adam Williams]

Yes, the NFC is disabled when the pass is in a wallet (any). But as far as we know (Independent Rail Retailers advice), rail apps don't suppress the NFC. We'd love to know if anyone knows differently?

To add to @MrJeeves' response: As I think I explained to Mike N, Raileasy have already gone through the process to get permission to use the entitlement to suppress NFC from Apple, but aren't currently using it because there's no in-app ticket display support.

The PDF has to be produced for E-Tickets though, as a minimum - it's part of Rail Delivery Group's spec. So as @Haywain points out, you can't assume the customers won't use the PDF, which is rather unfortunate for this use-case given how Ticketer have designed their physical hardware, with the card reader basically directly where people would put their phones for the "overhead" scanner. It's less of a problem for rail gatelines, for the most part. The area for contactless is far enough away from the barcode readers.

I'm led to believe that Apple Wallet will be fine as well as Google Wallet, so customers using the wallet on their phone will avoid the risk of "card clash"/accidentally starting a tap-on PAYG session.

 

[cool110]

The PDF has to be produced for E-Tickets though, as a minimum - it's part of Rail Delivery Group's spec. So as @Haywain points out, you can't assume the customers won't use the PDF, which is rather unfortunate for this given how Ticketer have designed their physical hardware. It's less of a problem for rail gatelines, for the most part. The area for contactless is far enough away from the barcode readers.

So we've ended up in the same situation as the Dutch rail gatelines, may have to copy their rule of the PDF only being valid when printed.

 

[Haywain]

I do imagine that most passengers using E-Tickets probably use wallet apps or the app's own ticket rendering feature, but you definitely cannot assume this to be the case as you point out.

My preference is to put the ticket in the (Google) wallet but not all retailers support this. Whereas my wife prefers to use the pdf, through not being a user of the wallet (not fully converted to contactless payments yet!).

 

[Deerfold]

The ticket machines on bus are being upgraded to read PlusBus e and m tickets. Ticketer (largest supplier) can scan the aztec code on bus, but is in the process of writing a fix so that it correctly reads the NLC code. Stagecoach, as mentioned, currently has barcode readers on limited services and is not ready for these to be included in the W Yorks trial.

Was West Yorkshire a good place to choose for the trial? I doubt many people are buying them there, these days as for non-railcard holders they're no cheaper than MCards/buying on board - and for regular users who can get volume discounts are more expensive than on the MCard app.

 

[Julie Gray]

Was West Yorkshire a good place to choose for the trial? I doubt many people are buying them there, these days as for non-railcard holders they're no cheaper than MCards/buying on board - and for regular users who can get volume discounts are more expensive than on the MCard app.

One of the reasons we chose W Yorks was exactly because it has a low to medium take up of PlusBus, so we lower the risk to bus operators of a trial that brings up issues. We also have all the bus groups and a few independents operating in this area, and its managed by the same group as the MCard, so lots of synergies. One of the risks of PlusBus eTickets to bus operators is revenue protection, as they don't have an eTVD for PlusBus and if they did not all ticket machines have sufficiently fast comms to report back to the driver in time for them to stop the customer from travelling. This is one of the areas that we'll be looking at in more detail in the trial, and the reason why we're limiting to day products only

 

[Howardh]

Presumably if the PlusBus e-tickets can be read by the ticket machine scanner on the bus then any interaction with the driver is unnecessary which should lead to greater acceptance on board the bus as so many drivers don’t know what PlusBus tickets are.

I guess this assumes that all the bus ticket machine scanners are programmed correctly….

Yes, but one might board at the right place, but travel beyond the boundary, not seen any recent maps but the older ones were quite vague - so the driver may well ask your intended destination!

That being said, glad to read they will be available electronically, I hope I can make a booking as per normal on my phone and the plusbus be automatically available as an add-on. Is that the plan?

 

[Watershed]

One of the reasons we chose W Yorks was exactly because it has a low to medium take up of PlusBus, so we lower the risk to bus operators of a trial that brings up issues. We also have all the bus groups and a few independents operating in this area, and its managed by the same group as the MCard, so lots of synergies. One of the risks of PlusBus eTickets to bus operators is revenue protection, as they don't have an eTVD for PlusBus and if they did not all ticket machines have sufficiently fast comms to report back to the driver in time for them to stop the customer from travelling. This is one of the areas that we'll be looking at in more detail in the trial, and the reason why we're limiting to day products only

Out of interest, why isn't there an eTVD for PlusBus and is there anything preventing it from working in the same way as it does onboard trains?

 

[Julie Gray]

Out of interest, why isn't there an eTVD for PlusBus and is there anything preventing it from working in the same way as it does onboard trains?

A few reasons: We've only just launched the PB eTicket in trial, so there has been no need for and eTVD until now; we need to prove a business case (or not) for investing in one; unlike rail tickets, but tickets don't retail via a central body such as RDG. Each bus operator /ticket machine manufacturer has its own eTVD for its own network so an PB eTVD would be a complex (but not impossible!) project. We are in the very eearly stages of looking at achieving this at a local level.

Yes, but one might board at the right place, but travel beyond the boundary, not seen any recent maps but the older ones were quite vague - so the driver may well ask your intended destination!

That being said, glad to read they will be available electronically, I hope I can make a booking as per normal on my phone and the plusbus be automatically available as an add-on. Is that the plan?

We added a new interactive mapping view to the PlusBus website for each PlusBus zone, and there is a link to the zone from the eTicket, so the zones are much better defined now. This is only a first step, and we hope that when you make your booking you'll eventually see the PlusBus zone as a map where you buy your PlusBus ticket. We can't make this happen though, as train companies and other rail retailers are free to decide whether or not they offer PlusBus at all.

Here's an example of the new mapping format: https://www.plusbus.info/plymouth

 

[Howardh]

We added a new interactive mapping view to the PlusBus website for each PlusBus zone, and there is a link to the zone from the eTicket, so the zones are much better defined now. This is only a first step, and we hope that when you make your booking you'll eventually see the PlusBus zone as a map where you buy your PlusBus ticket. We can't make this happen though, as train companies and other rail retailers are free to decide whether or not they offer PlusBus at all.

Here's an example of the new mapping format: https://www.plusbus.info/plymouth

Yes, that's much better, thanks!

 

[kkong]

We added a new interactive mapping view to the PlusBus website for each PlusBus zone, and there is a link to the zone from the eTicket, so the zones are much better defined now.

Here's an example of the new mapping format: https://www.plusbus.info/plymouth

The Aberdeen interactive map view is quite misleading.

As one of several examples, there are arbitrary areas/stops missing north of Dubford and Countesswells is completely excluded by the map despite being inside Aberdeen City.

The zone should (I believe) exactly match exactly the Aberdeen City Council boundaries and cover all Stagecoach / First services within the city boundaries.

 

[Haywain]

The zone should (I believe) exactly match exactly the Aberdeen City Council boundaries and cover all Stagecoach / First services within the city boundaries.

But that's what you would like, not what actually happens. The PlusBus website says:

An Aberdeen PlusBus ticket gives you unlimited bus travel on First and Stagecoach bus services, around the whole urban area of Aberdeen city, as shown by the travel maps

That clearly suggests that there are parts of the Aberdeen City Council area that are not covered.

 

[kkong]

But that's what you would like, not what actually happens. The PlusBus website says:

That clearly suggests that there are parts of the Aberdeen City Council area that are not covered.

I am suggesting is that the PlusBus site is incorrect, because the coverage map is very old and constructed using very coarse polygons.

Notably, both Stagecoach and First have city zone tickets (which match the city boundary) and the multi-operator Grasshopper ticket does the same.

I doubt PlusBus is intended to be any different - it would be almost impossible for the operators to police.

The map as it is makes little sense - e.g. there are two stops at the north east of the city shown as outside the zone, but part of a bus route which passes through them from other stops which are shown as inside the zone.

Yet there are sections of the North Sea shown as included in the zone.

The map *mostly* seems to be trying to follow the city boundary, but doesn't match some parts quite correctly.

 

[Julie Gray]

I am suggesting is that the PlusBus site is incorrect, because the coverage map is very old and constructed using very coarse polygons.

Notably, both Stagecoach and First have city zone tickets (which match the city boundary) and the multi-operator Grasshopper ticket does the same.

I doubt PlusBus is intended to be any different - it would be almost impossible for the operators to police.

The map as it is makes little sense - e.g. there are two stops at the north east of the city shown as outside the zone, but part of a bus route which passes through them from other stops which are shown as inside the zone.

Yet there are sections of the North Sea shown as included in the zone.

The map *mostly* seems to be trying to follow the city boundary, but doesn't match some parts quite correctly.

It's the bus operators that manage the PlusBus scheme in Aberdeen, and this is the map that they have provided to PlusBus to describe the boundary of the PlusBus scheme. If you think this needs revisiting, please contact [email protected] and one of the team will pick this up for you.

 

[kkong]

It's the bus operators that manage the PlusBus scheme in Aberdeen, and this is the map that they have provided to PlusBus to describe the boundary of the PlusBus scheme. If you think this needs revisiting, please contact [email protected] and one of the team will pick this up for you.

Thanks - I will be in touch.

 

[markymark2000]

One of the reasons we chose W Yorks was exactly because it has a low to medium take up of PlusBus, so we lower the risk to bus operators of a trial that brings up issues. We also have all the bus groups and a few independents operating in this area, and its managed by the same group as the MCard, so lots of synergies. One of the risks of PlusBus eTickets to bus operators is revenue protection, as they don't have an eTVD for PlusBus and if they did not all ticket machines have sufficiently fast comms to report back to the driver in time for them to stop the customer from travelling. This is one of the areas that we'll be looking at in more detail in the trial, and the reason why we're limiting to day products only

Given Plusbus West Yorkshire is managed by the same group as MCard, why isn't Plusbus in this area simply renamed 'Plusbus MCard Zone'. Least then everyone knows the validity much easier as currently the issue in W Yorks and West Mids for example is the fact that your ticket says '[Town] Plusbus'. That is no good when it covers a much wider area than just the town. I've had issues in the West Mids because I had a 'Birmingham Plusbus, this is Wolverhampton' and I know similar issues exist in West Yorkshire.

Further to this, making Plusbus available at all stations within the zones. I can't get a West Yorkshire Plusbus if I travel to/from Low Moor but I can if I buy a ticket travelling short to Halifax or further to Bradford. It's all a bit backwards. You can hardly expect to sell many Plusbus tickets in an area where you are misadvertising the zone (naming it as a 'Halifax Plusbus' or 'Bradford Plusbus' when infact it is region wide) and then also not selling it to/from a good number of stations within the zone. Then add to that, you can't even maintain your own lists of who accepts the ticket! Bradford Plusbus page still says that TJ Walsh accept the ticket, you know, the company that ceased 4 years ago! And people wonder why Plusbus sales can be low sometimes. How hard is it to get someone who has half a clue about buses involved, then they can go through the pages and reel off the huge amount of issues on the location webpages. Outdated and amateur are the words that come to mind.

 

[MrJeeves]

I've had issues in the West Mids because I had a 'Birmingham Plusbus, this is Wolverhampton' and I know similar issues exist in West Yorkshire.

The renaming of West Mids PlusBus to things like Birmingham+BusWM has definitely improved this experience.

A similar thing for Yorks would probably be good. Maybe +BusMCard? There are constraints on the length available to print, so there needs to be consideration for that. You also have to not make people think they need an MCard or that it's a ticket they load onto an MCard.

The name printed on E-Tickets and bog roll could really be longer than on credit card sized tickets, though, so maybe "+Bus MCard Area" would work for that, even if it doesn't fit on CCST, but I don't think the spec allows for this.

Alternatively, a new route code could be used described as "Valid as advertised within the MCard area"?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Further to this, making Plusbus available at all stations within the zones. I can't get a West Yorkshire Plusbus if I travel to/from Low Moor but I can if I buy a ticket travelling short to Halifax or further to Bradford. It's all a bit backwards. You can hardly expect to sell many Plusbus tickets in an area where you are misadvertising the zone (naming it as a 'Halifax Plusbus' or 'Bradford Plusbus' when infact it is region wide) and then also not selling it to/from a good number of stations within the zone.

The problem with making PlusBus available from every station within a zone (which also affects Greater Manchester, the West Midlands and South Yorkshire) is that - with how they're currently issued - you need to create a duplicate <station>+Bus location for each one.

Given location codes are in short supply, there was a tidying up exercise to remove locations that saw zero sales.

It's still possible to buy PlusBus in such circumstances, by choosing a different interchange station, but it can't be done online and may need some "shopping around" to get a Ticket Office to do it.

A better idea would be to just create a "West Yorks+Bus" (and similar) destination and price to that from all of the relevant stations.

 

[OscarH]

The problem with making PlusBus available from every station within a zone (which also affects Greater Manchester, the West Midlands and South Yorkshire) is that - with how they're currently issued - you need to create a duplicate <station>+Bus location for each one.

Given location codes are in short supply, there was a tidying up exercise to remove locations that saw zero sales.

It's still possible to buy PlusBus in such circumstances, by choosing a different interchange station, but it can't be done online and may need some "shopping around" to get a Ticket Office to do it.

A better idea would be to just create a "West Yorks+Bus" (and similar) destination and price to that from all of the relevant stations.

I don't entirely follow from a technical perspective why you couldn't have West Yorkshire+Bus as a single NLC, and define a fare from every applicable location to it to avoid that if they really are in that short supply (there's a lot more actually redundant ones I could mention!). It's not like there's a proper mapping from station to PlusBus NLC that I'm aware of, certainly I resorted to mapping it using the fares, so multiple locations pointing to one NLC is fine.

 

[markymark2000]

The renaming of West Mids PlusBus to things like Birmingham+BusWM has definitely improved this experience.

In my experience, the word 'Birmingham' was enough to set off drivers. I'd just call it 'NBus+Bus'.

The problem with making PlusBus available from every station within a zone (which also affects Greater Manchester, the West Midlands and South Yorkshire) is that - with how they're currently issued - you need to create a duplicate <station>+Bus location for each one.

I don't know the internal complexities, but you need Plusbus to be available as a separate ticket. Addon sort of thing. Otherwise, you risk ending up with a Leeds Bradford Airport situation whereby you lose out on all advance and cheaper tickets. Cross Country I think it is set all the fares to the Airport and often this means no cheap advances and it's cheaper to get normal tickets to Leeds then pay for the Flyer bus separately.

 

[Deafdoggie]

Further to this, making Plusbus available at all stations within the zones. I can't get a West Yorkshire Plusbus if I travel to/from Low Moor but I can if I buy a ticket travelling short to Halifax or further to Bradford. It's all a bit backwards. You can hardly expect to sell many Plusbus tickets in an area where you are misadvertising the zone (naming it as a 'Halifax Plusbus' or 'Bradford Plusbus' when infact it is region wide) and then also not selling it to/from a good number of stations within the zone. Then add to that, you can't even maintain your own lists of who accepts the ticket! Bradford Plusbus page still says that TJ Walsh accept the ticket, you know, the company that ceased 4 years ago! And people wonder why Plusbus sales can be low sometimes. How hard is it to get someone who has half a clue about buses involved, then they can go through the pages and reel off the huge amount of issues on the location webpages. Outdated and amateur are the words that come to mind.

This is why we stopped using Plusbus, we can get a through bus from our house to a local station in the Plusbus area, but no Plusbus tickets! To get to the Plusbus station requires a change of bus and a wait and a longer journey.

And then we get to destinations and find operators listed on the website no longer take part! More trouble than it's worth.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I don't entirely follow from a technical perspective why you couldn't have West Yorkshire+Bus as a single NLC, and define a fare from every applicable location to it to avoid that if they really are in that short supply (there's a lot more actually redundant ones I could mention!). It's not like there's a proper mapping from station to PlusBus NLC that I'm aware of, certainly I resorted to mapping it using the fares, so multiple locations pointing to one NLC is fine.

There's no technical reason preventing doing that and having the relevant stations included in a cluster to avoid needing to price each one individually.

It was just implemented as a point-to-point system when initially created and it seems nobody's thought to change it since.

 

[Deerfold]

Given Plusbus West Yorkshire is managed by the same group as MCard, why isn't Plusbus in this area simply renamed 'Plusbus MCard Zone'. Least then everyone knows the validity much easier as currently the issue in W Yorks and West Mids for example is the fact that your ticket says '[Town] Plusbus'. That is no good when it covers a much wider area than just the town. I've had issues in the West Mids because I had a 'Birmingham Plusbus, this is Wolverhampton' and I know similar issues exist in West Yorkshire.

Further to this, making Plusbus available at all stations within the zones. I can't get a West Yorkshire Plusbus if I travel to/from Low Moor but I can if I buy a ticket travelling short to Halifax or further to Bradford. It's all a bit backwards. You can hardly expect to sell many Plusbus tickets in an area where you are misadvertising the zone (naming it as a 'Halifax Plusbus' or 'Bradford Plusbus' when infact it is region wide) and then also not selling it to/from a good number of stations within the zone. Then add to that, you can't even maintain your own lists of who accepts the ticket! Bradford Plusbus page still says that TJ Walsh accept the ticket, you know, the company that ceased 4 years ago! And people wonder why Plusbus sales can be low sometimes. How hard is it to get someone who has half a clue about buses involved, then they can go through the pages and reel off the huge amount of issues on the location webpages. Outdated and amateur are the words that come to mind.

I've had good interactions when contacting PlusBus about errors (almost all changes which hadn't been picked up). I think the big problem with PlusBus is underfunding so they can't go through every town looking for mistakes and changes regularly - they rely on being told about changes through official channels - and where they fail, by customers spotting them.

 

[markymark2000]

I've had good interactions when contacting PlusBus about errors (almost all changes which hadn't been picked up).

I'd go through all the pages but I don't see why I should do it for free when there will be people employed within Plusbus to sort this stuff out. Pay me £50 and I will go through and highlight every single page and say what is incorrect.

I think the big problem with PlusBus is underfunding so they can't go through every town looking for mistakes and changes regularly - they rely on being told about changes through official channels - and where they fail, by customers spotting them.

You don't have to go through regularly, just periodically. Even yearly. The fact TJ Walsh is still showing shows that the page hasn't been looked at in 4 years. Any business that wants to have customers would be reviewing their web pages a lot more often than every 4 years. It's not Wikipedia, it shouldn't rely on other spotting and reporting issues.