Pointless first classes?

[me123]

One of the many reasons I pay extra to travel First class is that it significantly reduces your chance of being near to 'undesirables', eg dunk party goers, singing football hooligans, uneducated delinquents often shouting out appallingly vile language, etc etc. The late night weekend services from Edinburgh to Glasgow are particularity bad, especially on the Bathgate line.

Yeah, sorry about that

I am a regular traveler on this line, but I'd say that Aberdeen services are much worse for undesirables, at all times of the day. They have two-and-a-half hours to get progressively more drunk, and a small number of people regularly make use of every minute of their journey to gradually increase their blood alcohol content.

I also find First class passengers tend to dress smarter, indeed if I am traveling in First I will make more of an effort to look smart than if I were traveling standard, not that it bothers me if First class passengers wear scruffy jeans etc.

I'm not dressing up to travel FC, ever. When I do travel FC, I'm probably less likely to be in formalwear. I only travel FC on significant distances (to London, to Aberdeen), so I'd rather be comfortable than dressed to the nines. If anyone wants to judge me, I don't care.

 

[Mag_seven]

Looks like this thread is morphing into the usual debate about whether we should have first class or not regardless of stock type. Getting back on topic I agree that first class should be confined to stock where it can be easily made more spacious and different. More importantly it should be confined to routes where there are on board train staff to enforce it!

 

[infobleep]

On the 3 trains a day to Alton that are 444's....

What's wrong with that. Byfleet & New Haw and Hersham only get first class during the morning and evening peak and even then not on every train during these times! I've not checked if a First Class fare exists for those stations.
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I know that people like to repeat the opinion that 1'st class is only to get a seat on commuter routes, but there really isn't a reason why this has to be so, except for the lack of imagination by some TOC's. 1st has historically involved more comfort on such routes, and if TOC's want people to buy 1st class fares outside of peak hours, they need to rediscover this.

Perhaps they don't want peoples money outside of the commuter time. Perhaps commuter time pays much better.
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Down in SWT land it does not even guarantee one a seat on peak services.

I wonder what First Class is like on the 7.17 and 7.54 Guildford to Waterloo services.
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The concept was originally based on social class and standing, but I'd say it hasn't been remotely linked to these things for decades. BR's decision in 1984 to target first class at business passengers, and rename second class standard seems to have been the final nail in the coffin for thinking of the difference as being anything related to the traditional British class structure.

(I believe the reason that there were originally three classes was to reflect upper, middle and working class on the railway)

Speaking in a general sense, I can't see how first class is pointless if people are paying for it and using it, but I agree that if the facilities aren't fit for purpose then they could be described as useless!

There were originally five classes. Don't know what the difference between them was but I do know fifth class was open air carriages with wooden seats. Wonder if they traveled through tunnels?

 

[LBSCR Times]

What's wrong with that. Byfleet & New Haw and Hersham only get first class during the morning and evening peak and even then not on every train during these times! I've not checked if a First Class fare exists for those stations.

Hmmm, 06.53, 16.25 and 19.25 ex Waterloo.
08.44, 18.14 and 21.15 ex Alton.
Must be someone who has a lot of influence, to be able to travel on one of these services...

 

[NoMorePacers]

TPE 170 from Hull to Manchester Piccadilly. Was just 'a bit' more legroom in there.

 

[Bungle965]

TPE 170 from Hull to Manchester Piccadilly. Was just 'a bit' more legroom in there.

They also recline.
Sam

 

[Deepgreen]

There were originally five classes. Don't know what the difference between them was but I do know fifth class was open air carriages with wooden seats. Wonder if they traveled through tunnels?

I believe those seats were the inspiration for the class 377/6, 377/7, 387 and 700 pews.

 

[southern442]

Airport Stanstead and Gatex Yes with proper 1st class in the case of the later.

I'd just like to highlight this for a second.
The class 442's had a very nice first class - the last proper compartments on the network, all good etc. Since their refurb, they have lost their compartments but the first class is still pretty good with nice big reclining seats and large tables. However the new 387's replacing them have no difference between first and standard. The same Regulation Ironing Boards, NOTHING extra. It would be brilliant if some of the papers found out about this, maybe they might be inclined to do something about it.

 

[Bungle965]

I'd just like to highlight this for a second.
The class 442's had a very nice first class - the last proper compartments on the network, all good etc. Since their refurb, they have lost their compartments but the first class is still pretty good with nice big reclining seats and large tables. However the new 387's replacing them have no difference between first and standard. The same Regulation Ironing Boards, NOTHING extra. It would be brilliant if some of the papers found out about this, maybe they might be inclined to do something about it.

You get a antimacassar and... thats it
Sam

 

[cf111]

I'm not dressing up to travel FC, ever. When I do travel FC, I'm probably less likely to be in formalwear. I only travel FC on significant distances (to London, to Aberdeen), so I'd rather be comfortable than dressed to the nines. If anyone wants to judge me, I don't care.

Same here, although it's because when I travel by train for work first class is forbidden on pain of death (quite rightly), so when I'm in first it's using my own time and money and I've no wish to be wearing a suit, shirt, tie and formal trousers when I don't have to be.

 

[sarahj]

You get a antimacassar and... thats it
Sam

Hey The headrest cover is one of the things I say when folks go, 'but I never knew the difference'. First on a 442 is nice, love those seats and its a nice atmosphere in their when I check them between Gatwick and Brighton and VV. What happens between Gatwick and Vic is anybodies guess, as there is no conductors on board.

They did used to get a free, Tea,Coffee or water. Now all they get is a pile of Telegraphs sitting on the luggage rack. the 377's and suchlike lot, get the headrest cover and thats it. (some get a plug, that might work, on the new trains everyone gets a plug, on the newer trains, well......) Some get a sliding door, some get nothing, just a load of bums in their faces if I'm watching..

 

[jimm]

If you ask me I think its about time a lot of 1st class was axed anyway as happened on a lot of regional railways routes.

If it was up to me I would only retain the following 1st class

GWR, IEP/AT300 only

Sorry, but I don't think that's a tenable position, either now, or after Class 387s arrive.

At present, the 166s work most of the weekend service on the Oxford/Cotswold Line axis and a number of weekday trains too, serving an area where there is a proven demand for first class, albeit not what it once was. While the 800s will take over pretty much everything to the Cotswolds soon, the 166s also work weekday Oxford fasts that aren't covered by HSTs or 180s - and the 387s will be taking over this role in between the 800/AT300 workings.

There is also commuting in first from Didcot, Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead, though I'd accept that once 12-car 387s appear, improving the odds of a seat in standard, that first class custom might indeed evaporate.

The 166s are also focused on Reading-Gatwick and a fair few Newbury and Bedwyn services - in between assorted HSTs serving Theale, Thatcham and Newbury - suggesting that GWR still sees a demand for first class here and quite likes the revenue that comes with it. So in the case of the GWR 387s and the 166s that will remain at Reading for Gatwick duties, I can see perfectly good grounds to retain first class long-term.

That the 166s have been reduced to a single first class compartment and the 165s have lost theirs entirely - even though they are what will turn up if a 166 is indisposed - looks to have had a lot more to do with political pressure from MPs in the Thames Valley demanding ever more standard class seats than anything else.

Presumably first will disappear on 166s sent to Bristol, unless they decide they want to test the waters for first class on Cardiff-Portsmouth, which they simply couldn't contemplate at present given how busy the 158s are.

 

[infobleep]

They also recline.
Sam

Thw 450s also recline or at least the button part of the seat moves forward.
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Sorry, but I don't think that's a tenable position, either now, or after Class 387s arrive.

At present, the 166s work most of the weekend service on the Oxford/Cotswold Line axis and a number of weekday trains too, serving an area where there is a proven demand for first class, albeit not what it once was. While the 800s will take over pretty much everything to the Cotswolds soon, the 166s also work weekday Oxford fasts that aren't covered by HSTs or 180s - and the 387s will be taking over this role in between the 800/AT300 workings.

There is also commuting in first from Didcot, Reading, Twyford and Maidenhead, though I'd accept that once 12-car 387s appear, improving the odds of a seat in standard, that first class custom might indeed evaporate.

The 166s are also focused on Reading-Gatwick and a fair few Newbury and Bedwyn services - in between assorted HSTs serving Theale, Thatcham and Newbury - suggesting that GWR still sees a demand for first class here and quite likes the revenue that comes with it. So in the case of the GWR 387s and the 166s that will remain at Reading for Gatwick duties, I can see perfectly good grounds to retain first class long-term.

That the 166s have been reduced to a single first class compartment and the 165s have lost theirs entirely - even though they are what will turn up if a 166 is indisposed - looks to have had a lot more to do with political pressure from MPs in the Thames Valley demanding ever more standard class seats than anything else.

Presumably first will disappear on 166s sent to Bristol, unless they decide they want to test the waters for first class on Cardiff-Portsmouth, which they simply couldn't contemplate at present given how busy the 158s are.

Ice side this before but I'm surprised First Class doesn't exist on the Cobham line. After all enough rich people live in Surrey. Perhaos it's felt given the trains don't get really busy during the peak until Surbiton, people wouldn't pay for it.

 

[southern442]

They did used to get a free, Tea,Coffee or water. Now all they get is a pile of Telegraphs sitting on the luggage rack. the 377's and suchlike lot, get the headrest cover and thats it. (some get a plug, that might work, on the new trains everyone gets a plug, on the newer trains, well......) Some get a sliding door, some get nothing, just a load of bums in their faces if I'm watching..

I think that first class on the 377/4's isn't bad. The seats are slightly bigger (probably doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things), you get a separate, usually quieter compartment, a plug socket, either slightly or loads more legroom due to the seat arrangement, so not too bad. On the others, however, the free hat is all you get

 

[Deepgreen]

I think that first class on the 377/4's isn't bad. The seats are slightly bigger (probably doesn't make much difference in the grand scheme of things), you get a separate, usually quieter compartment, a plug socket, either slightly or loads more legroom due to the seat arrangement, so not too bad. On the others, however, the free hat is all you get

The first class seats on the 377/1, 2, 3 and 4 sub-classes are identical to the standard class 2+2 seats. They are a completely different design to the 2+3 seating, of course. The leg room at the first class tables is the same as at the standard class tables. The inward-facing single seats offer a lot of space but the same size seat (and no window view).
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thw 450s also recline or at least the button part of the seat moves forward.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Ice side this before but I'm surprised First Class doesn't exist on the Cobham line. After all enough rich people live in Surrey. Perhaos it's felt given the trains don't get really busy during the peak until Surbiton, people wouldn't pay for it.

There used to be 4VEPs on the Cobham route, often paired with 4EPBs. I'm not sure whether first class tickets could be bought for the route, though.

The golden age of first class Southern commuting must have been the 6CIT units from 1932, three of which were specifically produced and allocated for the 5pm London Bridge to Brighton working (the 'City Limited') for city/banking commuters. They had by far the greatest proportion of first class of any EMUs, having three trailer firsts for a six car unit.

 

[paul1609]

I know that people like to repeat the opinion that 1'st class is only to get a seat on commuter routes, but there really isn't a reason why this has to be so, except for the lack of imagination by some TOC's. 1st has historically involved more comfort on such routes, and if TOC's want people to buy 1st class fares outside of peak hours, they need to rediscover this.

Peak time First Class on Southeaastern (375s) is generally fully occupied by Sevenoaks if not Tonbridge in my 2 years experience of travelling up to town. Off Peak there is no real demand because 95% of leisure traffic from Ashford and beyond uses HS1. This affects stations as far West as Staplehurst. Headcorn and Staplehurst were traditionally railheading stations and off peak traffic now railheads at Ashford International which has ample parking instead.
Prior to HS1 the car park at Headcorn was regulary full, now its seldom at 2/3rds. Westfield Stratford has also affected the off peak traffic flows.
Given the imbalance in Peak/ Off Peak traffic its difficult to see how to justify a more luxurious 1st class.

 

[southern442]

The first class seats on the 377/1, 2, 3 and 4 sub-classes are identical to the standard class 2+2 seats. They are a completely different design to the 2+3 seating, of course. The leg room at the first class tables is the same as at the standard class tables. The inward-facing single seats offer a lot of space but the same size seat (and no window view).

On the 377/4's, the headrests in 1st class are slightly larger than in standard. There is also slightly more legroom In the first class section of these trains because of the inward facing seats, as it uses less space than airline seats.

 

[yorksrob]

Peak time First Class on Southeaastern (375s) is generally fully occupied by Sevenoaks if not Tonbridge in my 2 years experience of travelling up to town. Off Peak there is no real demand because 95% of leisure traffic from Ashford and beyond uses HS1. This affects stations as far West as Staplehurst. Headcorn and Staplehurst were traditionally railheading stations and off peak traffic now railheads at Ashford International which has ample parking instead.
Prior to HS1 the car park at Headcorn was regulary full, now its seldom at 2/3rds. Westfield Stratford has also affected the off peak traffic flows.
Given the imbalance in Peak/ Off Peak traffic its difficult to see how to justify a more luxurious 1st class.

I tend to eschew the joys of HS1 (my family tell me it tends to be irritatingly busy these days), so I still travel quite often up to Charing Cross in the off-peak. Generally there still seem to be plenty getting on at Staplehurst and Headcorn, so I would have thought that some could be persuaded to pay more for more comfort. Then you still have the Hastings mainline.

 

[paul1609]

I tend to eschew the joys of HS1 (my family tell me it tends to be irritatingly busy these days), so I still travel quite often up to Charing Cross in the off-peak. Generally there still seem to be plenty getting on at Staplehurst and Headcorn, so I would have thought that some could be persuaded to pay more for more comfort. Then you still have the Hastings mainline.

Post HS1 theres more getting on the Charing Cross trains at Headcorn and Staplehurst than Ashford but most off peak trains were cut from 8 to 4 cars a couple of timetables ago which will tell you which way demand has gone. Off Peak the Hastings line trains beyond Tunbridge Wells are largely fresh air expresses the inflation plus 5% fares increase regime drove the family market on to the A21 where they drive to Orpington for high frequency services to Charing Cross with Oyster or travel cards. Having the line closed for weeks on end bankrupted the private catering service and the passenger numbers have never recovered. Kent is unique South of the Thames in having relatively good roads to Central London with excellent park and rides stations around the M25. This is why Southeastern now requires such high subsidies.

 

[yorksrob]

Post HS1 theres more getting on the Charing Cross trains at Headcorn and Staplehurst than Ashford but most off peak trains were cut from 8 to 4 cars a couple of timetables ago which will tell you which way demand has gone. Off Peak the Hastings line trains beyond Tunbridge Wells are largely fresh air expresses the inflation plus 5% fares increase regime drove the family market on to the A21 where they drive to Orpington for high frequency services to Charing Cross with Oyster or travel cards. Having the line closed for weeks on end bankrupted the private catering service and the passenger numbers have never recovered. Kent is unique South of the Thames in having relatively good roads to Central London with excellent park and rides stations around the M25. This is why Southeastern now requires such high subsidies.

They're usually eight carriages when I travel on them.

If 5% rises are pushing the leisure market onto the A21, they're pricing off-peak travel wrongly.

 

[D6975]

I'm not sure about the E-G route since I haven't tried the mock up but I'd say the first class provision on the intercity routes when the HSTs are introduced will be a welcome improvement over what's currently on offer.

I think you ought to reserve judgement on that one.
We don't yet know what the internal arrangement of Scotrail's HSTs is going to be.
You can bet your bottom dollar that they won't retain a full FO.
Given that a CO is likely, we may see a complete gutting of the seats, depending on where the Mk3s come from first. GW only have 18 composites, VTEC have none.

 

[Thunderer]

Based on recent experience of some long distance travelling from South Wales up to Newcastle and back, First Class is a viable alternative. For me it was worth paying the extra just to get a slightly more comfortable seat next to a window and for a quieter, less cramped journey. I call "standard class" cattle class...seats packed close together with no leg room and often not even next to a window. Ok for short journeys, but awful for longer trips. It's actually a measure of how much rail teavel has gone backwards in the last 20 years where the passinger is treated with contempt by the private train operators and is only seen as a cash-cow ?????? To conclude, I now have to travel First Class in 2016 to get the same seating experience that used to cost next to nothing back in the 1980's and 1990's

 

[sprinterguy]

I think you ought to reserve judgement on that one.
We don't yet know what the internal arrangement of Scotrail's HSTs is going to be.
You can bet your bottom dollar that they won't retain a full FO.
Given that a CO is likely, we may see a complete gutting of the seats, depending on where the Mk3s come from first. GW only have 18 composites, VTEC have none.

The HSTs will have thirty first class seats. I don't know for sure, but, given that galley catering will also be a feature of these trains, I expect them to be located in a catering vehicle as per the Chiltern sets (which seat thirty in a 2+1 layout in the "Business Zone").

 

[scotsman]

The HSTs will have thirty first class seats. I don't know for sure, but, given that galley catering will also be a feature of these trains, I expect them to be located in a catering vehicle as per the Chiltern sets (which seat thirty in a 2+1 layout in the "Business Zone").

I think I'm right in saying that the Chiltern sets have the full kitchen? Have they got a 'bunk' as well at the end?

 

[Rapidash]

XC Voyagers, especially the 4 car ones. I had the odd experiance of coming back from Bristol last summer, the service was full and standing when it arrived, and the seat I had reserved was occupied by a family who didn't want to give it up.

The TM thought it was a better idea to put me in 1st. Upon getting there, it was revealed to have three other passengers, a complete contrast to the melee in standard. Surely it should be declassified in times of crowding? I.e the bulk of the year in the westcountry.

 

[scotsman]

XC Voyagers, especially the 4 car ones. I had the odd experiance of coming back from Bristol last summer, the service was full and standing when it arrived, and the seat I had reserved was occupied by a family who didn't want to give it up.

The TM thought it was a better idea to put me in 1st. Upon getting there, it was revealed to have three other passengers, a complete contrast to the melee in standard. Surely it should be declassified in times of crowding? I.e the bulk of the year in the westcountry.

No, because then it narks off your first class passengers who have paid a lot of money (often) in the expectation that they'd avoid the sort of melee you describe.

 

[Rapidash]

No, because then it narks off your first class passengers who have paid a lot of money (often) in the expectation that they'd avoid the sort of melee you describe.

Do three 1st class tickets account for more income than 20+ standard ones? I'm not sure on that!