• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Poor customer service from a TOC

Status
Not open for further replies.

TheSlash

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,339
Location
Marwell Zoo
Today I received some very poor customer service from a member of South West Trains staff.

Two of my friends travelled to a major SWT station, using BR priv passes. These passes were correctly filled out and checked by the guard en route.
To exit the station, they presented they're passes at the ticket barrier and they were inspected by a Revenue Protection Assistant {RPA}.
Earlier in the journey when my friend filled out her pass, the train jolted and the pen smudged. To correct this and emphasize the date, she overwrote the smudge.
The pass had barely been used, so had lots of free journeys still available.
She explained all this to the RPA, but he refused to accept the explanation, he confiscated the pass and said it would be sent away for testing as part of an investigation into Fraud.

As I was nearby, my friends contacted me, hoping I could assist them with the incident.
I arrived promptly and my friends identified the RPA to me.
I approached the RPA and asked if we could have a word in private, but he chose to carry on our conversation on the station concourse. I wasn't very happy about this, but I didn't want to lose track of the main issue, so I carried on.
I reviewed the incident with him and asked some basic questions as to why he refused to believe the explanation given. He gave me very vague answers that did not satisfy me, so I asked to speak to the station manager. He replied that “The station manager has no authority over my work”.
Logically, my question was the details for his direct manager. He refused me these details.
At this point, he excused himself from the conversation. He stated he had an urgent matter to attend to and would be back in “Thirty seconds”.
I waited with my friends at the location for five minutes, timed on the station clock. He failed to return was not visible on the station. I felt this was exceptionally poor customer service.

The other issue I had was his appearance. When I first approached him, his shirt was untucked, his trousers torn and he wasn't wearing a name badge.

As a Team Leader for the National Infrastructure Owner, the presentation of my staff is important to me.
The image staff give off represents three bodies;

It represents the company.
The appearance of a Trackman will go along way to the public perception of the company. Although we carry out heavy engineering in a dirty environment, it's no excuse for a poor appearance. At the end of a shift, any dirty PPE is put in the laundry. It's not a good image or good for your health to be walking around in the same grease stained PPE day in, day out.

It represents Me.
As the Team Leader, my lads' represent me. How can people be confident for me to deliver a professional service if the people I use to do the work are covered in dirt and look like they live on the streets.

It represents themselves.
People who take pride in they're image are automatically qualified to take pride in other things.
I believe somebody who takes pride in they're image will take pride in they're work. A Trackman who wears clean PPE, laces his boots up properly and keeps himself tidy, will want his work to be the same.
Somebody with no self respect will have no respect for the work they carry out and it's quality. They are the people I expect to be chasing for higher quality.


The other thing that concerns me is the person responsible for this RPA. That person has allowed the individual to go out into the public eye in that condition. They will also not of challenged them about they're appearance during that shift.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Ferret

Established Member
Joined
22 Jan 2009
Messages
4,124
Are you not supposed to fill out the box before you get on the train?!

Aside from that minor detail, the SWT revenue assistant is bang out of order. For one, it's no way to treat fellow railway staff. I'd report it to SWT giving details of the location and the time of the incident and mention the poor uniform standards.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,882
Location
Yorkshire
I'd say you have a very good case. Do report it! Let us know what happens. Good luck!
 

Dai.

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2008
Messages
1,210
Location
Wales
Report it. I wouldn't say go to the manager of that particular station, I'd say go higher.
 

Surreytraveller

On Moderation
Joined
21 Oct 2009
Messages
2,810
Earlier in the journey when my friend filled out her pass, the train jolted and the pen smudged. To correct this and emphasize the date, she overwrote the smudge.

Just me being pedantic, but you're supposed to fill in the box before you get on the first train. So, by explaining that you filled the box in on the train to an RPI, you are admitting you are flouting the rules!

But surely, the correct course of action for the RPI if he was that worried about it, would have been to cross out that box and get the passenger to fill in the next box with the correct date.
 

TheSlash

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,339
Location
Marwell Zoo
I've written a complaint to SWT, but I am wondering about the level of response I will receive, based on the standards of the staff they feel are acceptable to represent the company's corporate image to thousands of people everyday.
 

Dai.

Established Member
Joined
2 Aug 2008
Messages
1,210
Location
Wales
BJ ;), I am glad you reported this wally, it sounds like he is full of his own self importance and deserves everything he gets.
If you get fobbed off just push it further.

Agreed,

Keep pushing it further til you get what you asked for. Like a spoilt child tantrum.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810
I would say you have a case for a complaint about his attitude and presentation, but as your friend openly admitted flouting the rules I wouldn't hold out much hope for anything.
 

Matt Taylor

Established Member
Joined
31 Aug 2008
Messages
2,339
Location
Portsmouth
From the RPA's point of view his argument would be 'If the guard had not seen your boxes how do we know you would have filled them in at all'?

Although the RPA was heavy handed I do understand why he took that attitude given that you had already admitted to not adhering to the rules.

Furthermore the revenue staff at stations (and on trains) are now under the jurisdiction of station management so the station manager has every authority over the RPAs work.
 
Joined
18 Oct 2009
Messages
34
Hmmmmm.

Although I can not excuse the attitude of the RPA, I will raise concern over the original issue. The RPA does not know you (the person presenting the boxes), however they have been presented with a Boxes Card where there is smudging and an overwriten date.

Considering they do not know you, they do not know your regularity of using the card and whether you use it enough to reasonably expect that such apresentation could look suspicious.

Considering they do not know you, they do not know if you are legitimately entitled to the card and if you were not a regular user of the card because you actually borrowed it off someone, you would not know about the original T&C's of the Boxes that if you make a mistake you cross through it and use the next available box.

Therefore, I could quite understand why an RPA has raised a concern regarding your Boxes card. Granted if I was presented with three railway staff and allwere in order except that smudge, I would have suggested that you cross through the box and put it down to experience that you have lost the use of one box. I am also however a former guard who let quite a lot of staff and retired staff get away with a lot on their boxes.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,013
Furthermore the revenue staff at stations (and on trains) are now under the jurisdiction of station management so the station manager has every authority over the RPAs work.

Over their attitude and appearance at the time maybe, but not their actual work. Rule number one of revenue protection is that Managers don't step in and overrule something a RPI/RPA has done, e.g. Penalty Fare or report someone. They can discuss it after, suggest ways it could have been handled differently, etc, but to overrule them in front of a passenger totally undermines them in a difficult job.

Not excusing the attitude of the RPA in saying that, but then there are two separate issues here. The boxes being confiscated and the complaint against the staff member.
 

TheSlash

Established Member
Joined
7 Jun 2005
Messages
2,339
Location
Marwell Zoo
Thanks for the messages of support.
The Priv card is accompanied by a photo ID card, so no doubting the identity of the holder.
The card was filled out as soon as they sat down on the train, not when they were prompted. While this is not quite correct, it was still filled out before anybody asked to check it.
I believe the boxes are issued in April? Given that's it October and my friend had only used one or two boxes would indicate they are not a frequent user.
Crossing out the box and filling in the one next to it would of been perfectly acceptable to all concerned.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810
Thanks for the messages of support.
The Priv card is accompanied by a photo ID card, so no doubting the identity of the holder.
The card was filled out as soon as they sat down on the train, not when they were prompted. While this is not quite correct, it was still filled out before anybody asked to check it.
I believe the boxes are issued in April? Given that's it October and my friend had only used one or two boxes would indicate they are not a frequent user.
Crossing out the box and filling in the one next to it would of been perfectly acceptable to all concerned.

No 'quite' about it - it is incorrect and your friend had already informed the RPA of this.

I'm not sure why your friend called you over - what were they expecting you to do (genuine question)?
 

GB

Established Member
Joined
16 Nov 2008
Messages
6,457
Location
Somewhere
The other issue I had was his appearance. When I first approached him, his shirt was untucked, his trousers torn and he wasn't wearing a name badge.

Whilst this is only my opinion, the things you brought up about his appearance seem relativly minor. His trousers for all you know could have been ripped that same day and his shirt may have come loose without him realising. I have to wear a shirt and tie at my job, but due to the nature of the work the damn thing is always coming untucked. Without actually seeing him it is hard to make judgements.

Whilst I do not know the rules regarding wearing name badges at this particular TOC, it could just be a simple oversight. There have been occassions at a previous job where I either left my badge at home or left it in the locker room.

It does kind of feel you are trying to find something to retailiate with, but as i say, this is just my opinion.

However, having said all that, the fact that he would not give details of his superiors and the fact that he walked off and didn't bother to return is totally unacceptable and unproffesional.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810
I'd have thought the RPA would have no authority to "confiscate" the pass given that it is the property of the passenger?

But is it property of the passenger? I can't remember what it says.
 

ukrob

Established Member
Joined
15 Jan 2009
Messages
1,810

LilLoaf

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2008
Messages
510
Well he certainly wouldn't not have got my PRIV pass, would have argued to the point till blue in the face. You were in the right its up to them to prove otherwise. Not go on the basis of ooh i've got a gut feeling the pass is invaild. No that will not do. Anyway RPA staff are not allowed to take PRIV passes of railway staff. Not many people know that, a formal complaint must be made to the PRIV holders company by the RPA staff boss. They are only allowed to suspend tickets of passengers. Not passes where other TOC are involved.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,013
Anyway RPA staff are not allowed to take PRIV passes of railway staff.
I think you'll find they are, but the pass must then be sent to Rail Staff Travel for them to investigate the matter. It can't be dealt with in house by the TOC.
 

LilLoaf

Member
Joined
15 Aug 2008
Messages
510
I think you'll find they are, but the pass must then be sent to Rail Staff Travel for them to investigate the matter. It can't be dealt with in house by the TOC.

Yeah thats what too many people think. Your not the only one who thinks that so i see where your coming from. If you can get hold of a copy of the "the big bible on ticket and pass restrictions" go look in there. I had a look of a mate's who's a RPI. The RPI must report the PRIV pass staff holder to the TOC company that the pass holder works for. Then the PRIV holders boss takes the relervent action.

The are differant rules for retired staff, or staff on long term leave. You may well go through the channels already mentioned in these cases.

I did actually forget to ask if the guy in the situation at the start of the thread was either retired or on long term leave.
 

Helvellyn

Established Member
Joined
28 Aug 2009
Messages
2,013
It must be Rail Staff Travel who are wrong then, seeing that it was them who have stated they need passes forwarded to them!

Abuse of travel facilities can indeed lead to disciplinary action by the issuing TOC or other issuing organisation, including where it is family and friends that are involved, but if it's someone from another company it must be reported to RST to handle - they likely pass it on to the relevant TOC.
 
Joined
18 Oct 2009
Messages
34
Well he certainly wouldn't not have got my PRIV pass, would have argued to the point till blue in the face. You were in the right its up to them to prove otherwise. Not go on the basis of ooh i've got a gut feeling the pass is invaild. No that will not do. Anyway RPA staff are not allowed to take PRIV passes of railway staff. Not many people know that, a formal complaint must be made to the PRIV holders company by the RPA staff boss. They are only allowed to suspend tickets of passengers. Not passes where other TOC are involved.

and PRIV pass holders wonder why some revenue and commercial staff are less forgiving these days.

Revenue Protection Assistants have every right to withdraw any ticket that they believe is being incorrectly (or fraudulently) used and give a receipt for such.

Would YOU, as a signaller, accept a driver coming on the CSR/NRN/SPT and arguing the toss with you over a decision you made based on the rules and regulations you were taught? DOUBTFUL

So why would YOU find it acceptable and argue the toss with another member of staff, railway or not, because they made a decision based on the rule and regulations they were taught?

Your PRIV pass is a ticket to travel, just like a Standard Day Return. It is just a legitimatly withdrawable under the Conditions of Carriage, just as a normal ticket is. I have personal experience of this when I withdrew a non-safeguarded drivers PRIV card because he was using it to buy tickets with the PRIV discount for his friend who did not even work for the railway. He phoned his RST office in the middle of a packed carriage, on speakerphone, to prove me wrong and RST told him I had every right to withdraw it. The RPA in this case would withdraw the card and complete a "withdrawl form" (can't remember the exact name of it now) and forward it all to Rail Staff Travel, who then take action as necessary.

Does "RPA" stand for "Revenue Protection Arsehole"?

Give the man a Gold Star! Here is another fine example why Guards and Revenue staff are not as accomodating as they used to be!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Further to the points made above, there is information available in "The Manual" which is available on the ATOC website for staff holding valid TOC log in details. The Manual incorporates the information previously published in the Ticket Examiners Handbook, which was withdrawn in 2008.

Under "Privilege Ticket travel arrangements – active staff", it says:

2. Holder is using the card for FREE travel but has not entered a date in the box:
Cancel the first or next available box with an 'X' (This procedure requires there to be at least two boxes remaining on the card). Write the correct date in the next available box.

2.1 If there is only one box remaining or if all the boxes have been used collect the Staff Travel Card.

· Do not collect the Photo Card unless you think that the person involved in the incident is not the person on the card.

· Issue a free excess for the whole journey being made (both outward and return).

· Obtain the holder's work location, grade, pay number and, if possible their current administration centre (this need not be the one that originally issued the Card).

· Submit a Report of Irregular Travelling as soon as possible.

· Tell the person's Personnel Department that they have been reported and the Travel Card has been retained.

5. Any date on a Travel Card has been altered:
Ask basic questions about the suspected alterations.

Collect the Staff Travel Card (and ticket).

Follow the procedure shown in 2.1 - click here.
(Obviously the click here features are not directly copied- only relevent sections have been quoted)


The fact that the box was smudged and overwriten could appear that the box has been altered. It can therefore be suggested that there is evidence that an action has taken place contrary to the item marked 5 in the quote. The first course of action noted is to "Collect the Staff Travel Card" and then refer to 2.1, which is also quoted above.

Think yourselves lucky. When I left a TOC for NR, I lost EVERYTHING... no Priv, no Duty Travel. PRIV stands for Privilege. remember that, its not a right.
 

LondonLarry

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2009
Messages
275
Location
Wherever I lay my hat, that's my home
Earlier in the journey when my friend filled out her pass, the train jolted and the pen smudged. To correct this and emphasize the date, she overwrote the smudge.
The pass had barely been used, so had lots of free journeys still available.
She explained all this to the RPA, but he refused to accept the explanation, he confiscated the pass and said it would be sent away for testing as part of an investigation into Fraud.

From the RPA/RPI's perspective, he may have thought that the woman was trying to use the same box twice, regardless of how many spare ones were left. In that respect, it could be considered as fraud. However, he could've used some discretion and asked her to fill in another box.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top