Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[dp21]

Franchises are always a secret until the winner is announced. I'd be enormously surprised to not see new trains somewhere in wales. Not least given the new CAF factory in the country!

 

[Chester1]

Franchises are always a secret until the winner is announced. I'd be enormously surprised to not see new trains somewhere in wales. Not least given the new CAF factory in the country!

The ITT is always public though!

CAF is more likely than Vivarail because new units would be much more popular than converted tube trains.

Lets see what happens with the 769, it may yet be a success.

 

[gareth950]

Franchises are always a secret until the winner is announced. I'd be enormously surprised to not see new trains somewhere in wales. Not least given the new CAF factory in the country!

The new Wales franchise has been an exception. It's the first ever award of a franchise since privatisation where Welsh Govt have released NO details of what they expect from bidders AT ALL throughout the entire award process.
Not even the ITT has been made public, if one was drawn up at all. The ITT won't be released until after the franchise contract is awarded and signed off.

 

[gazthomas]

The new Wales franchise has been an exception. It's the first ever award of a franchise since privatisation where Welsh Govt have released NO details of what they expect from bidders AT ALL throughout the entire award process.
Not even the ITT has been made public, if one was drawn up at all. The ITT won't be released until after the franchise contract is awarded and signed off.

Shocking. I don't know the background but I hope there was a public consultation as an input into the ITT. Why wouldn't the ITT not be made public? Do they not have to publish an OJEU notice? (incidentally the GW franchise tender is on OJEU)

 

[HLE]

There wouldn’t be any need to ‘shut down’ routes operated by pacers or unmodified sprinters come January 2020. The government will either allow an extension to get units cascaded or modified or the existing non compliant toilets will simply be locked out of use.

You don’t need a toilet on a train for the service to operate.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

There wouldn’t be any need to ‘shut down’ routes operated by pacers or unmodified sprinters come January 2020. The government will either allow an extension to get units cascaded or modified or the existing non compliant toilets will simply be locked out of use.

You don’t need a toilet on a train for the service to operate.

But the PRM legislation is about more than just toilets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I reckon a a large, top secret order for D-trains has been placed. Might explain Vivarail's buoyant mood.

Well, at least those shouting for heavy rail in the Valleys would get it in that case!

 

[WatcherZero]

Topic has strayed, but there is a kinda Welsh ITT, its very short though
https://beta.gov.wales/sites/defaul...rator-and-development-partner-procurement.pdf

 

[The Ham]

Topic has strayed, but there is a kinda Welsh ITT, its very short though
https://beta.gov.wales/sites/defaul...rator-and-development-partner-procurement.pdf

However, even that implies that there should be an ITT:

Continue stakeholder engagement activities, including at least one further
twelve-week public consultation prior to any Invitation to Tender being published.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thing is that was published in November, is internally dated March and the ITT was supposed to have been issued in October so....
Yay public openness I guess?

 

[IanXC]

Can I remind everyone this thread is about 769s. Welsh politics and 230s (amongst many other things) are off topic!

thanks

 

[Kieran1990]

Is there any update/ news/ pictures of any class 769’s yet?
I know the project is behind but it feels like it’s been in the pipeline for yonks now

 

[WatcherZero]

Might feel like yonks but its only been 14 months since the project was even internally mooted nevermind public announcement (7 months).

I guess a year is a long time in rail fandom

 

[D365]

I guess a year is a long time in rail fandom

(!)

Never heard that word used as a synonym for ‘industry’ before..!

 

[AM9]

(!)

Never heard that word used as a synonym for ‘industry’ before..!

I think it's very apt and fandom is nowhere near what goes on in industry. With posts here regularly complaining that a nunbered example of new stock is a few days late, acute impatience seems to be a regular issue.

 

[mushroomchow]

Bit of Hysterical over reaction I think, still nearly 2 years before Pacers have to go, and given the number of units involved I would think Arriva will be far more concerned that the new CAF units are introduced on time without too many issues, and that there isn't a delay in getting hold of their cascaded units.

I'm sure Northern users care far less about the green credentials of their operator than getting new trains - that in mind, I've no doubt they'd prefer more 195s to whatever comes out of the Flex project. I don't think it's over-reacting to point out that the project appears to be chronically behind schedule, and that Northern is going to have to make a decision pretty soon on whether to continue with it or just bite the bullet and get CAF to build 8 more 195s. We haven't even seen these things operate yet, so we have no idea how well they perform. With every passing day of silence, it becomes more and more of a gamble to persist with them, because the window for testing before introduction is going to become shorter and shorter and the technology is completely unproven in actual operation as yet.

I also disagree that "nearly 2 years" is a long time in the rail industry. If we get to the end of 2018 and we find ourselves with both no introduction of the 769s and no orders for additional 195s, there could very well be a fleet shortfall come the time of the scheduled Pacer withdrawal - and all this is, of course, to assume that the 195 introduction goes without any hitches and is completed on-schedule.

As for comparisons with VivaRail, they're always going to come up, because these are the two conversion projects going on at the moment and the end products, while eminently different, are going to have some overlap in the markets they compete for.

 

[IanXC]

Northern is going to have to make a decision pretty soon on whether to continue with it or just bite the bullet and get CAF to build 8 more 195s.

Its also not beyond the realms of possibility that more of the now coming available 170s than previously planned, ie above and beyond the 18 vehicles of 170 quality due 2020 or so.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As for comparisons with VivaRail, they're always going to come up, because these are the two conversion projects going on at the moment and the end products, while eminently different, are going to have some overlap in the markets they compete for.

I would agree. The problem fundamentally is that there are not enough DMUs even with the extra ones planned to be built, and there definitely aren't enough in the short term while said new ones are being built, nor can anything be wired or tramified quickly enough to solve that short-term need.

So the options to solve that crisis are:-
- 769s, which can be used on routes with partial wires or pure DMU routes
- 230s, which can be used on branch lines and release (typically) 15x to the other routes that 769s might go on directly
- Services can be split, even where this might be highly inconvenient, to use only EMUs under the wires and DMU shuttles where not under the wires.
- Locomotive-hauled coaching stock can be used to release 15x to other routes

Certainly the latter two are being done in some measure, but going too far with them (things like withdrawing through Buxton to Manchester services and splitting at Hazel Grove being one possible example) might be highly unpopular. Some others like splitting TPE Manchester Airport services at Picc, or truncating Barrow services to Lancaster or Windermere to Oxenholme are more debatable, and LHCS of the kind that's knocking around is unreliable (Cumbrian Coast). So that leaves a need for *something* to be built that can be built much more quickly than the lead time for new stock, and either of the first two options are *something*, even if they might be used in different ways to achieve the same end.

 

[Chester1]

If Manchester to Preston electrification finishes by December timetable change then Northern's DMU shortfall will be roughly halved. New December 2018 services will have to be delayed if the 195s and 331s are late. Its a bit premature to write off the 769s just yet. The other factor is Northern's commitment to obtaining 18 x 2 coach DMUs equal in performance and quality to 170s by 2022. If the national DMU shortage has made it difficult or impossible for Northern to obtain units then a follow order of 18 x 2 coach 195s would meet the commitment early and mean that Northern would only need to find PRM-TSI compliant DMUs of any standard if the 769s don't arrive. Northern must be due a lot of componsation for electrification problems by now so its financially and politically plausible.

 

[snowball]

If a post by Tony Miles on wnxx is to be believed (based on his discussion with Ian Walmsley) the Flex plans presumed the 319s were in perfect condition but they aren't - there's steel components (which Porterbrook proposed fitting diesel engines to) which have worn so thin that they can't support the extra weight of a diesel engine.

I think I read somewhere that Ian Walmsley has made a bet that the 769's will never turn a wheel in anger!

In the March issue of MR, page 39, Walmsley mentions "the Class 319 Flex, which, against my £1 bet, is coming together in Loughborough."

Admittedly this ia part of a comparison between bi-modes and Japanese knotweed.

 

[a_c_skinner]

I'm sure Northern users care far less about the green credentials of their operator than getting new trains

Actually I don't think anyone is bothered about new trains, just enough trains. As I've said before a lot of trains in the NW of England (and around Leeds I suspect) are full to the point of capacity limiting ridership.

 

[D365]

Actually I don't think anyone is bothered about new trains, just enough trains...

My experience of numerous debates on this forum would suggest otherwise!

 

[pemma]

Actually I don't think anyone is bothered about new trains, just enough trains. As I've said before a lot of trains in the NW of England (and around Leeds I suspect) are full to the point of capacity limiting ridership.

Based on comments passengers direct at the @northernassist twitter feed they want both more seats and better trains. They might find additional 150s or 319s as a suitable interim measure until more new trains arrive but I think those who think Northern should still be operating 150s or 319s in 2025 are a small minority.

 

[jonesy3001]

Plenty of 323s going spare in 2020 if the Flex programme doesnt work.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Based on comments passengers direct at the @northernassist twitter feed they want both more seats and better trains. They might find additional 150s or 319s as a suitable interim measure until more new trains arrive but I think those who think Northern should still be operating 150s or 319s in 2025 are a small minority.

150s I'll give you, but EMUs last in good condition much longer, so if those 319s got the Renatus treatment I doubt they would care. Some would probably even think they were a new train built to an old design; DB fooled me on that one with the extremely high quality Silberling refurbs in the 1990s. The key to managing that is to replace or powder-coat every single piece of the interior (paint is too obvious), don't leave something there (like the lazy Class 156 refurb left the lighting conduit there not even painted, the mucky uncleaned beige contrasting with the blue).

 

[Mathew S]

150s I'll give you, but EMUs last in good condition much longer, so if those 319s got the Renatus treatment I doubt they would care. Some would probably even think they were a new train built to an old design; DB fooled me on that one with the extremely high quality Silberling refurbs in the 1990s.

The 319s are quite popular. They're a much quieter and more comfortable ride than the Pacers and Sprinters they've replaced.
The 150s feel like what they are: old.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Plenty of 323s going spare in 2020 if the Flex programme doesnt work.

323s are harder to do a Flex job on because there isn't the 750VDC input to repurpose. Third rail Networkers might be worth a go when they become available, but of course that gives you a DMU rather than a bi-mode.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 319s are quite popular. They're a much quieter and more comfortable ride than the Pacers and Sprinters they've replaced.
The 150s feel like what they are: old.

I reckon if you got the 319/2 (Brighton Express) interior people would *really* like them. (That's 2+2 mixed airline and table with 6 rows per 2-windowed section using Chapman seats). Indeed, if a load of Chapman seats are going spare, perhaps they could be retrofitted?

Sadly Northern's units have the worst of the layouts (3+2 all facing) - even the Cityflyer layout (2+2 Ashbourne seating with facing on one side and generously spaced airline on the other) is nicer - but if the *worst* layout is popular imagine how popular one would be with InterCity quality seating?

 

[Mathew S]

I reckon if you got the 319/2 (Brighton Express) interior people would *really* like them. (That's 2+2 mixed airline and table with 6 rows per 2-windowed section using Chapman seats). Indeed, if a load of Chapman seats are going spare, perhaps they could be retrofitted?

Sadly Northern's units have the worst of the layouts (3+2 all facing) - even the Cityflyer layout (2+2 Ashbourne seating with facing on one side and generously spaced airline on the other) is nicer - but if the *worst* layout is popular imagine how popular one would be with InterCity quality seating?

Absolutely. The 3+2 facing seats are the main thing I don't like personally about any train. 156s are perfect layouts, in my view, as are the TPE 185s and 350s. Facing seats should have tables in between, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[pemma]

The 319s are quite popular. They're a much quieter and more comfortable ride than the Pacers and Sprinters they've replaced.
The 150s feel like what they are: old.

Although, they have also replaced 323s on some services and I've heard passengers moan that their 'modern' train has been replaced by some 'ancient' train. It looks like 323s will make a temporary appearance on Chat Moss and 319s might make a temporary appearance on Blackpool to Manchester Airport. People complained about losing tables and 2+2 seating on Liverpool to Manchester Airport services so I don't know what passengers will make of 319s on Blackpool to Manchester Airport services (which has previously been operated by 175s and 185s.)