Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[RPI]

My mistake. Swap Allegro for Maestro and the same comment applies-no one would buy one today as the market has moved on to other things. My local buses have leather seats,aircon, wifi and USB points at every seat yet Northern are proposing to offer the clapped out 319 with the extra noise from the diesel engines.

Have you seen how much a Maestro turbo is worth these days? Saw one sell for just over £4k yesterday! And would still see off most modern cars, old isn't bad

 

[Bletchleyite]

Certainly true - but the Northern 150s for the most part have airline seats that are excrutiatingly uncomfortable because of lack of legroom - and have claustrophobic high backs. The 319s are much more pleasant for me to sit in (but it is all very subjective). Also of course the 319s are quiet.

If you've got any ex Brighton Express 319/2s those are about the most comfortable units on the network. LNR have one and it's most welcome when it shows up.

The /1s with 2+2 in 3+2 width aren't bad either.

 

[northwichcat]

Basically it appears to be a number of Class 319 units in a siding with one renumbered to 769.000. I have asked Richard if the 769 actually moves, it will be interesting to see what comes back. If they have a working Class 769 then I am sure it will be demonstrated today.....

I'm not sure if it was your tweet or someone else's but he replied saying he has further information which will be published in the next edition of RAIL. I'm guessing that means there aren't any plans to move them for testing before the next edition of RAIL is published (in around a month's time.)

 

[mushroomchow]

I'm not sure if it was your tweet or someone else's but he replied saying he has further information which will be published in the next edition of RAIL. I'm guessing that means there aren't any plans to move them for testing before the next edition of RAIL is published (in around a month's time.)

I thought RAIL was 2-weekly? Or has that changed?

 

[northwichcat]

I thought RAIL was 2-weekly? Or has that changed?

It might be.

 

[Chester1]

I thought RAIL was 2-weekly? Or has that changed?

It might be.

Its every 2 weeks. The next edition is available electronically on 30th June and instore 3rd July.

 

[Milo T.K]

Have any class 769s even appeared yet cause i seen nothing about them

 

[PHILIPE]

Have any class 769s even appeared yet cause i seen nothing about them

No. It seems difficult to get much information about this.

 

[D365]

Have any class 769s even appeared yet

If you want to believe the stickered Class 319s at Rail Live, sure. Porterbrook haven’t been in any hurry to retrieve them from Long Marston though...

 

[AndrewE]

Anything is better than the 142/150,

Certainly true - but the Northern 150s for the most part have airline seats that are excrutiatingly uncomfortable because of lack of legroom - and have claustrophobic high backs. The 319s are much more pleasant for me to sit in (but it is all very subjective). Also of course the 319s are quiet.

The 142's should have been retired years ago, but some 150s are still fine - see https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/your-most-enjoyable-train-ride-recently.166407/. I would prefer an all electric railway, but occasionally a taste (or rather the feel and sound) of a diesel power unit under the floor is nice. Just not a Voyager.

Rolling stock contracts don't work like that.
There is no fat controller moving pieces on a map any more, you have to do deals with ROSCOs and live with them.

It's a pity that the enthusiasts for privatisation can't recognise this.

 

[WatcherZero]

Have any class 769s even appeared yet cause i seen nothing about them

Two supposedly completed and undergoing static tests but havent done rolling tests, others supposedly at various stages of conversion. Northern have received discounted substitute lease vehicles as compensation for late delivery.

 

[Rail Blues]

If you want to believe the stickered Class 319s at Rail Live, sure. Porterbrook haven’t been in any hurry to retrieve them from Long Marston though...

I wonder if they've done a Paddington Bear and have abandoned them with a 'Please look after this train' tag.

 

[mushroomchow]

I wonder if they've done a Paddington Bear and have abandoned them with a 'Please look after this train' tag.

Now you have me wondering what it would be like to be stuck on a 769 from Paddington to Penzance.

 

[D365]

I wonder if they've done a Paddington Bear and have abandoned them with a 'Please look after this train' tag.

You’re not far off the truth.

Is all I can say

 

[Cardiff123]

Two supposedly completed and undergoing static tests but havent done rolling tests, others supposedly at various stages of conversion. Northern have received discounted substitute lease vehicles as compensation for late delivery.

ATW should have their 769s in service now to start their PRM 2020 plan - what compensation are they getting?

 

[northwichcat]

Two supposedly completed and undergoing static tests but havent done rolling tests, others supposedly at various stages of conversion. Northern have received discounted substitute lease vehicles as compensation for late delivery.

ATW should have their 769s in service now to start their PRM 2020 plan - what compensation are they getting?

When exactly were the Wales & Borders 769s expected? The WG statement only said they would be introduced during 2018 and said it would be during the final year of the ATW franchise, so from that introduction in September is on time. I'd be surprised if it was by the May 2018 timetable change given the Northern ones were to be delivered first and getting those all done by May 2018 was an ambitious target.

Also what are the 'discounted substitute' units for Northern? The temporary 5 extra 153s are Angel Trains units, the first 4 x 170s (which are Porterbrook) arrived a few weeks early but Northern are supposed to have all 16 by next week. (I doubt that'll happen.) If the substitute units are 319s then that doesn't help much as the 769s were ordered because 319s can't be used due to the wiring delays!

 

[Bertie the bus]

Two supposedly completed and undergoing static tests but havent done rolling tests, others supposedly at various stages of conversion.

Static testing could mean anything, or more than likely nothing.

They've obviously not achieved anything tangible or they wouldn't have taken a 319 with stickers on it to Rail Live last week.

 

[The_Engineer]

Static testing could mean anything, or more than likely nothing.

They've obviously not achieved anything tangible or they wouldn't have taken a 319 with stickers on it to Rail Live last week.

Those 319s were already there anyway! It's where Porterbrook stores them.... Brush (Wabtec) at Loughborough is where the conversions are being done. Dynamic tests originally to be done on the GCR, none have appeared there yet.

 

[Bertie the bus]

The Northern livery one wasn't already there. That was taken for the event masquerading as a 769. The ones with 'reserved for the 769 programme' or whatever were the stored ones.

 

[D365]

The stored 319/4s don’t appear to have moved since they were plonked there.

 

[The_Engineer]

The Northern livery one wasn't already there. That was taken for the event masquerading as a 769. The one with 'reserved for the 769 programme' or whatever were the stored ones.

OK - my mistake! Told otherwise, I shall tell my source off.....

 

[Cardiff123]

When exactly were the Wales & Borders 769s expected? The WG statement only said they would be introduced during 2018 and said it would be during the final year of the ATW franchise, so from that introduction in September is on time. I'd be surprised if it was by the May 2018 timetable change given the Northern ones were to be delivered first and getting those all done by May 2018 was an ambitious target.

Initially, whenever anyone tweeted ATW about overcrowding, ATW replied by linking the 769 press release and saying that the 769s were expected by 'late Spring' this year. That then changed to 'summer', then 'late summer', and now when tweeted about overcrowding, ATW twitter don't even mention the 769s anymore.
Why would ATW have pledged £1 million towards the introduction of 769s if they weren't going to get them in service until this September? That would've given the 769s a maximum of 5/6 weeks in service with ATW at best.

There's now way the 769s will arrive in Wales by September, so I should imagine ATW are looking to get their money back.

 

[Bertie the bus]

There's now way the 769s will arrive in Wales by September, so I should imagine ATW are looking to get their money back.

There is no way any 769 will be in service with any operator this year. The new CAF stock which is due to enter service in December for TPE and Northern is arriving now and dynamic testing should be starting in the next few weeks, and I'd say even they aren't guaranteed to be in service for the Dec timetable. They've also had a few month's testing abroad before arriving so the 769s which haven't even left the factory yet have no chance.

 

[Whattraintoday]

There is no way any 769 will be in service with any operator this year. The new CAF stock which is due to enter service in December for TPE and Northern is arriving now and dynamic testing should be starting in the next few weeks, and I'd say even they aren't guaranteed to be in service for the Dec timetable. They've also had a few month's testing abroad before arriving so the 769s which haven't even left the factory yet have no chance.

I take it then that being conversions of existing stock won’t change the testing regime much - given different axle loadings, weight distribution etc?

 

[hooverboy]

Have you seen how much a Maestro turbo is worth these days? Saw one sell for just over £4k yesterday! And would still see off most modern cars, old isn't bad

better buy a pacer before they scrap them all!!

 

[Bertie the bus]

I take it then that being conversions of existing stock won’t change the testing regime much - given different axle loadings, weight distribution etc?

They’re billed as new trains so I expect they’ll need to go through the same testing regime. One thing to remember, though it is obviously complicated by the ongoing timetable issues, is that timetables are supposed to be confirmed at T-12. Therefore, the December timetable should, but won’t, be set by mid-September and it would be foolhardy and irresponsible to assume the 769s will be ready and available, and the timetable based on that, if they haven’t been tested by then.

 

[northwichcat]

Initially, whenever anyone tweeted ATW about overcrowding, ATW replied by linking the 769 press release and saying that the 769s were expected by 'late Spring' this year. That then changed to 'summer', then 'late summer', and now when tweeted about overcrowding, ATW twitter don't even mention the 769s anymore.

Even changing an expected arrival date from 20th June to 22nd June would change it from 'late Spring' to 'summer'

 

[northwichcat]

They’re billed as new trains so I expect they’ll need to go through the same testing regime. One thing to remember, though it is obviously complicated by the ongoing timetable issues, is that timetables are supposed to be confirmed at T-12. Therefore, the December timetable should, but won’t, be set by mid-September and it would be foolhardy and irresponsible to assume the 769s will be ready and available, and the timetable based on that, if they haven’t been tested by then.

Yet Northern did just did for the May 2018 timetable change with planning the Alderley Edge to Wigan and Wigan to Stalybridge services to be operated by 769s and then having to cancel extra services to free up 150s to run the services which should have been 769s.

 

[Chester1]

There is no way any 769 will be in service with any operator this year. The new CAF stock which is due to enter service in December for TPE and Northern is arriving now and dynamic testing should be starting in the next few weeks, and I'd say even they aren't guaranteed to be in service for the Dec timetable. They've also had a few month's testing abroad before arriving so the 769s which haven't even left the factory yet have no chance.

TPE have received 3 or 4 Mark V sets therefore I would be surprised if some are not ready for service by December. The 397s and 802s are not due to arrive next year. Northerns new units seem to be on time but there is the DOO issue. I agree, I would be extremely surprised if any 769s are in service anywhere in 2018. Combined with Blackpool electrification only due to be switched on 10th November I would be surprised if DfT is stupid enough to expect Northern to introduce many new services in December. They should assume they will no new units by the timetable and that electrification will not be finished. If either occurs then they can try to catchup with the timetable for pacer withdrawal which pressumably start until at least December now.

Its really astounding that GWR recently chose to order 19 units!

 

[AndrewE]

TPE have received 3 or 4 Mark V sets therefore I would be surprised if some are not ready for service by December. The 397s and 802s are not due to arrive next year. Northerns new units seem to be on time but there is the DOO issue. I agree, I would be extremely surprised if any 769s are in service anywhere in 2018. Combined with Blackpool electrification only due to be switched on 10th November I would be surprised if DfT is stupid enough to expect Northern to introduce many new services in December. They should assume they will no new units by the timetable and that electrification will not be finished.

... so up here in the North we shouldn't really expect any further capacity increases (or new rolling stock) until next May/June then! Thank heavens for cast-off London-area 319s!