Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[Grumpy]

Off topic, but Austin Allegro production finished in 1982. The first batch of 319's appeared for the re-opening of the link between Blackfriars & Farringdon in 1988.

But no, they're not the best EMU on the planet by any means - and the Austin Allegro was not even close to being a good car!

My mistake. Swap Allegro for Maestro and the same comment applies-no one would buy one today as the market has moved on to other things. My local buses have leather seats,aircon, wifi and USB points at every seat yet Northern are proposing to offer the clapped out 319 with the extra noise from the diesel engines.

 

[woodhouse122]

My local buses have leather seats,aircon, wifi and USB points at every seat yet Northern are proposing to offer the clapped out 319 with the extra noise from the diesel engines.

the rail replacement buses between preston and blackpool are miles better than the 319s - the Blackpool transport E400H buses have decent wifi,USB power sockets and even have tables

 

[The_Engineer]

Basically it appears to be a number of Class 319 units in a siding with one renumbered to 769.000. I have asked Richard if the 769 actually moves, it will be interesting to see what comes back. If they have a working Class 769 then I am sure it will be demonstrated today.....

An informed source told me the unit number 769.000 is an unmodified Northern Class 319...… Richard Clinnick's latest Tweet says he has an update, but he is saving it for his magazine - and there is no news embargo he confirms.....

 

[Rail Blues]

An informed source told me the unit number 769.000 is an unmodified Northern Class 319...… Richard Clinnick's latest Tweet says he has an update, but he is saving it for his magazine - and there is no news embargo he confirms.....

If this is the case, the sum total of hee haw appears to have been done in practical terms and we are not even close to see one running under its own power.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Surely they must have a high expectation of success even if delayed? They must have some idea what they are doing because they will look like total idiots otherwise.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Indeed. That will be the MK 4 carriages that are being discarded from the ECML and the 158's being discarded by Wales. And both of these are much more pleasant than the 319's

They are better than the 142s and 150s otherwise plying the tracks, and are a guaranteed 4 cars.
Many of them (and the 323s) will be replaced by new 331s over the next 2 years.
Seating is subjective, but they swallow the crowds, are fast at loading/unloading and are PRM compliant.
I think they are fine for another decade or so, and have a crucial role as 769s.
They are also going to W&B and GWR as 769s.

Maybe people forget that the (Labour) business case for GW and NW electrification in 2009 was based on the cascade of 319s from Thameslink to Thames Valley and Northern services.
We have pages and pages of stuff on why serviceable EMUs should not be thrown away, but when some intelligent recycling happens people still complain.

 

[yorksrob]

All this could be a blessing in disguise. I had a ride today on a 319 from Manchester to Blackpool. They really are awful. No aircon so lots of noise from the open windows. The horrible 3+2 seating that's too low to be comfortable. Noise from underneath-I am assuming a compressor. The PA on the unit wasn't working nor any visual displays. Sticking on some diesel engines is just going to make things worse. When these were built Leyland were still making the Austin Allegro and most people wouldn't touch one today even if the salesman said they'd repainted the outside and re-covered the seats. Best try for a derogation or even keep some 144's without toilets for a couple of years rather than throw money at this old junk

Having caught a few around the place, they're no worse than the 150's and soak up a lot more passenger demand. They are what they are - a fairly basic, short distance unit to get a lot of people shifted quickly.

That aside, whilst I'd have no objection to keeping 144's for longer, I wouldn't agree with having them without toilets.

 

[AM9]

... When these were built Leyland were still making the Austin Allegro ...

Well, actually that is wrong. These trains were built between 1987 and 1990, - even the oldest ones were built 5 years after the last Allegro left the factory. Most of the Allegros were built in the mid '70s.

 

[AM9]

... Swap Allegro for Maestro and the same comment applies-no one would buy one today as the market has moved on to other things. ...

Well that is probably true for 90% of all cars sold in the '80s. Who would buy a Renault 20, a Ford MKIII Escort or a Fiat Ritmo, - even if thery met current legislation?

 

[Grumpy]

Well that is probably true for 90% of all cars sold in the '80s. Who would buy a Renault 20, a Ford MKIII Escort or a Fiat Ritmo, - even if thery met current legislation?

That's the point-design and public expectation have moved on from the 1980's. The 319's are a 80's product and are unappealing for the 20's

 

[Grumpy]

They are better than the 142s and 150s otherwise plying the tracks, and are a guaranteed 4 cars.
Many of them (and the 323s) will be replaced by new 331s over the next 2 years.
Seating is subjective, but they swallow the crowds, are fast at loading/unloading and are PRM compliant.
I think they are fine for another decade or so, and have a crucial role as 769s.
They are also going to W&B and GWR as 769s.

Anything is better than the 142/150, and the 319 is little more than a 4car electric 150. Seating may be subjective but I don't think I've ever heard or read of anyone passing good comments about the 319 seating. Mechanically/electrically they may be capable of running for another 10 years (as indeed might 150/142) but why do this when there are other alternatives that are more likely to retain/attract passengers? You've really got problems when your trains comfort is compared unfavourably with buses. The original plan was for some of these to transfer to GWR but they weren't having it and ordered 387. The 379's become available from next year, Northern would be better taking some of these. Let the 319's go back for St Pancras-Corby. If you must have some bi-modes wait for some new Stadlers even if it means hanging on to a few 144's for a short period

 

[Bletchleyite]

Anything is better than the 142/150, and the 319 is little more than a 4car electric 150. Seating may be subjective but I don't think I've ever heard or read of anyone passing good comments about the 319 seating. Mechanically/electrically they may be capable of running for another 10 years (as indeed might 150/142) but why do this when there are other alternatives that are more likely to retain/attract passengers? You've really got problems when your trains comfort is compared unfavourably with buses. The original plan was for some of these to transfer to GWR but they weren't having it and ordered 387. The 379's become available from next year, Northern would be better taking some of these. Let the 319's go back for St Pancras-Corby. If you must have some bi-modes wait for some new Stadlers even if it means hanging on to a few 144's for a short period

For EMUs, if a decent price can be negotiated the 350/2s would seem a good fit.

 

[LOL The Irony]

For EMUs, if a decent price can be negotiated the 350/2s would seem a good fit.

Or 360's.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Or 360's.

Or those. May indeed be a better fit given that they are non gangwayed and there are 4 and 5-car sets which are likely not to need doubling up, then the 350/2s could potentially go somewhere else (or indeed end up remaining on WMT for significant capacity enhancements).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Anything is better than the 142/150, and the 319 is little more than a 4car electric 150. Seating may be subjective but I don't think I've ever heard or read of anyone passing good comments about the 319 seating. Mechanically/electrically they may be capable of running for another 10 years (as indeed might 150/142) but why do this when there are other alternatives that are more likely to retain/attract passengers? You've really got problems when your trains comfort is compared unfavourably with buses. The original plan was for some of these to transfer to GWR but they weren't having it and ordered 387. The 379's become available from next year, Northern would be better taking some of these. Let the 319's go back for St Pancras-Corby. If you must have some bi-modes wait for some new Stadlers even if it means hanging on to a few 144's for a short period

Rolling stock contracts don't work like that.
There is no fat controller moving pieces on a map any more, you have to do deals with ROSCOs and live with them.
At the time Northern needed EMUs, the only ones available were cascaded 319s.
They were also all they could afford (this is before Arriva took over).
Northern has since bought as many 331s as they could make a case for, and will still need some 319s for the duration of the franchise.
In any case 319s (which I use regularly) are perfectly suitable trains for local routes.
There is NO BUSINESS CASE for more new trains at Northern, now the Pacers are going.

 

[edwin_m]

Rolling stock contracts don't work like that.
There is no fat controller moving pieces on a map any more, you have to do deals with ROSCOs and live with them.
At the time Northern needed EMUs, the only ones available were cascaded 319s.
They were also all they could afford (this is before Arriva took over).
Northern has since bought as many 331s as they could make a case for, and will still need some 319s for the duration of the franchise.
In any case 319s (which I use regularly) are perfectly suitable trains for local routes.
There is NO BUSINESS CASE for more new trains at Northern, now the Pacers are going.

Especially as they have almost certainly signed a contract to lease the 319s for the duration of the franchise. So if they replaced them they would be paying to hire both fleets, unless there is some kind of break clause or they can strike a deal with the ROSCO. The deal would only be possible if the ROSCO got something out of it, which would probably involve hiring something else from the same ROSCO instead, for more money.

 

[D365]

... but when some intelligent recycling happens people still complain.

People are complaining, because a working 769 does not exist yet!

 

[pemma]

People are complaining, because a working 769 does not exist yet!

Precisely that. Northern are using Sprinters on services where 769s could be used and have postponed some service enhancements for the second time because of a lack of DMUs. While Network Rail are taking a fair amount of the blame for the full Northern recast not happening, Porterbrook are also directly responsible for failing to deliver their product to the deadline they committed to.

 

[Mikey C]

People are complaining, because a working 769 does not exist yet!

They've changed the number on the outside, what more do you want

 

[Chester1]

Especially as they have almost certainly signed a contract to lease the 319s for the duration of the franchise. So if they replaced them they would be paying to hire both fleets, unless there is some kind of break clause or they can strike a deal with the ROSCO. The deal would only be possible if the ROSCO got something out of it, which would probably involve hiring something else from the same ROSCO instead, for more money.

There have been suggestions that Northern will swap 319s for 323s which although unlikely its also plausible because both fleets are owned by Porterbrook. The current problems make it less likely that Porterbrook will want more 319s on top of the large number off lease. Battery 331s could work on some routes as an alternative to 769s e.g. extending a Hazel Grove service to New Mills Newtown as promised.

 

[47802]

All this could be a blessing in disguise. I had a ride today on a 319 from Manchester to Blackpool. They really are awful. No aircon so lots of noise from the open windows. The horrible 3+2 seating that's too low to be comfortable. Noise from underneath-I am assuming a compressor. The PA on the unit wasn't working nor any visual displays. Sticking on some diesel engines is just going to make things worse. When these were built Leyland were still making the Austin Allegro and most people wouldn't touch one today even if the salesman said they'd repainted the outside and re-covered the seats. Best try for a derogation or even keep some 144's without toilets for a couple of years rather than throw money at this old junk

Having had a ride on one a few weeks ago I thought it was perfectly fine certainly better than a 150. in any the case the express Manchester - Blackpool services will eventually be 331's anyway.

Personally I'm not sure its worth spending what is presumably a significant amount of money to turn a 30 year on train into a Bi-mode Diesel, I think Northern should be looking alternatives eg. more 195's, cascaded 170/156's even keep a few bog less Railbuses for a few years etc, obviously there is a timescale issue here which only the 769 could deliver in the original timescales, but the longer this train takes the less sense it makes.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern need bi-modes...now is the chance for CAF to shine and convert some of the EMUs, now fewer are needed?

 

[47802]

Northern need bi-modes...now is the chance for CAF to shine and convert some of the EMUs, now fewer are needed?

Frankly your obsessed with Bi-modes, if CAF of someone else can provide a Battery EMU that's capable of doing the Windermere branch and Carnforth to Barrow and back then maybe.

 

[pemma]

Battery 331s could work on some routes as an alternative to 769s e.g. extending a Hazel Grove service to New Mills Newtown as promised.

Given Northern are already running 2tph to Buxton when the franchise requirement is for 1tph to Buxton and 2tph to New Mills Newtown, I think it's unlikely they'll be running services to New Mills Newton only except during engineering works. Although, Northern running 2tph to Buxton hasn't gone well with passengers in Cheshire who are missing their promised extra services. (Both the Mid-Cheshire and Chester-Warrington-Manchester lines carry more passengers per day than the Buxton line.)

 

[pemma]

Having had a ride on one a few weeks ago I thought it was perfectly fine certainly better than a 150.

Some passengers can't tell the difference. Highlighted by one passenger saying on a news report he couldn't understand why there was a 4 car train (a 319) on one service and a 2 car train (a 150) on a busier service when Northern could just swap them around!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Frankly your obsessed with Bi-modes

Yes, because running filthy DMUs under the wires is so 1990s.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Some passengers can't tell the difference. Highlighted by one passenger saying on a news report he couldn't understand why there was a 4 car train (a 319) on one service and a 2 car train (a 150) on a busier service when Northern could just swap them around!

To be fair, a 150 is basically a 2-car diesel 319 - the body and the seating are very similar.

 

[Polarbear]

My mistake. Swap Allegro for Maestro and the same comment applies-no one would buy one today as the market has moved on to other things. My local buses have leather seats,aircon, wifi and USB points at every seat yet Northern are proposing to offer the clapped out 319 with the extra noise from the diesel engines.

Apologies - I was in pedant mode! Your point is well made (as I look out to the drive where my nice comfortable Golf is sat thinking how much more comfortable it is than a 319).

 

[keith1879]

To be fair, a 150 is basically a 2-car diesel 319 - the body and the seating are very similar.

Certainly true - but the Northern 150s for the most part have airline seats that are excrutiatingly uncomfortable because of lack of legroom - and have claustrophobic high backs. The 319s are much more pleasant for me to sit in (but it is all very subjective). Also of course the 319s are quiet.

 

[swissrailpassion]

They are better than the 142s and 150s otherwise plying the tracks, and are a guaranteed 4 cars.
Many of them (and the 323s) will be replaced by new 331s over the next 2 years.
Seating is subjective, but they swallow the crowds, are fast at loading/unloading and are PRM compliant.
I think they are fine for another decade or so, and have a crucial role as 769s.
They are also going to W&B and GWR as 769s.

Maybe people forget that the (Labour) business case for GW and NW electrification in 2009 was based on the cascade of 319s from Thameslink to Thames Valley and Northern services.
We have pages and pages of stuff on why serviceable EMUs should not be thrown away, but when some intelligent recycling happens people still complain.

The 319 transfer to the north intention in 2009 was for fully reconditioned units with airconditioning. At the time everyone said that it was a case of believe it when you see it and, indeed, we have not seen it.