Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[northwichcat]

And, given that the average trainload at Manchester Airport is around thirty two passengers, you could probably thin the frequency out a little by cutting some of the DMUs (e.g. Southport) but that'll get a predictably hostile reaction.

Southport is set to lose it's airport service at the next recast, when it will get 2tph to Victoria and a peak time only service to Alderley Edge (there's a change you can make to make better use of OHEs.)

The standard pattern for airport services is set to be:
Lime Street to Airport to Crewe (Northern stopper via Chat Moss)
Lime Street to Airport via Warrington (Northern semi-fast)
Edinburgh/Glasgow to Airport (TPE)
Barrow/Windermere to Airport (Northern)
Newcastle to Airport (TPE)
Blackpool to Airport (Northern)
Middlesbrough to Airport (TPE)
Cleethorpes to Airport (TPE)
Leeds to Airport via Bradford (Northern)
North Wales/Chester to Airport (ATW off-peak only - not guaranteed to remain a through service beyond end of current franchise)

As there won't be a shuttle any more services like the Blackpool one will call at one or two stations between Piccadilly and the airport.

 

[notlob.divad]

I do think there is a need to split routes to stop running DMUs under the wires until the 195s are delivered and in full service. The obvious ones on Northern are things like Windermere as a shuttle only and Barrow truncated to Lancaster with a replacement Class 319 Manchester Airport to Oxenholme/Carlisle service timed for connections where viable. If it comes to it, even an Ormskirk style arrangement at Hazel Grove in the short term, though that would be highly unpopular. Similarly, look at lopping some of the Manchester Airport services for now, e.g. if the Picc reversing siding is unused put one into that which would free a DMU.

What others are there?

Cut back the CLC stopping service to Hunt's Cross. With a 319 shuttle running all stops S.Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street. Not sure if it would actually save a unit, but it may improve reliability and time keeping.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Cut back the CLC stopping service to Hunt's Cross. With a 319 shuttle running all stops S.Parkway to Liverpool Lime Street. Not sure if it would actually save a unit, but it may improve reliability and time keeping.

With the LNR service potentially able to take up the local calls, could you just start it at Hunts Cross or South Parkway with no replacement? Those actually going to Liverpool could use Merseyrail, many possibly do already as it is more convenient.

Ideally, long term, run Merseyrail out to Warrington Central and get rid of it entirely, with a separate, more frequent Warrington to Manchester service.

 

[Starmill]

And, given that the average trainload at Manchester Airport is around thirty two passengers, you could probably thin the frequency out a little by cutting some of the DMUs (e.g. Southport) but that'll get a predictably hostile reaction.

That one is happening anyway. The reaction was very hostile (not that I understand why myself).

I do not think that the platforms at Hazel Grove have the capacity for DMUs to terminate from Buxton and be replaced with new trains originating there.

 

[twpsaesneg]

So, no news about 769s then?

 

[rebmcr]

So, no news about 769s then?

If you'd bothered to read back six posts, less than five hours back you would have found this "news about 769s"...

I asked an engineer who works for Arriva last week and he said it's been pushed back to August due to problems converting them at Porterbrook. He also said that the delay in getting the 319s would push back the refurbishment/modification of the 15xs

 

[twpsaesneg]

If you'd bothered to read back six posts, less than five hours back you would have found this "news about 769s"...

I've just read 5 pages of posts and missed that one in much discussion of Welsh politics and class 150 diagrams.

Thanks for highlighting it though!

 

[a_c_skinner]

A more controversial one would be EMUs from Leeds to Skipton in the path of some Morcambe/ Lancaster services, maybe even some Carlisle services - I can't see that going down as well in the press though ("rural communities isolated" etc etc).

I'd thought that the Leeds to Lancaster/Morecambe services could be split at Skipton, like Lancaster a good deal of scope for simple cross platform connections. Mind you like Barrow and Bradford - Liverpool via Manchester it does seem a good bet for bimodes if the 769s work and wprk well.

 

[northwichcat]

Barrow-Manchester Airport and Bradford-Liverpool are 2 routes which won't get 769s due to the Northern Connect specification. That's why Windermere would have 769s removed by the end of 2019 and Northern are supposedly looking at putting them on Southport services if they don't end up handing them back.

 

[stu99]

Southern Electric Group on Facebook have announced 769434 or 769456 will be tested on the Great Central railway in the next few weeks.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Southern Electric Group on Facebook have announced 769434 or 769456 will be tested on the Great Central railway in the next few weeks.

A bit of good news. I had been worried that corrosion etc would have rendered it completely impossible.

 

[northwichcat]

Southern Electric Group on Facebook have announced 769434 or 769456 will be tested on the Great Central railway in the next few weeks.

If that's true and testing is a success then maybe they'll be able to enter service before the December 2018 timetable change, even if they miss May 2018.

 

[stu99]

If that's true and testing is a success then maybe they'll be able to enter service before the December 2018 timetable change, even if they miss May 2018.

I hope it is true and I'm guessing they'll just miss the May 18 timetable change, as crews will need to be trained if they were going to be used on the Windermere and Barrow runs.

 

[1179_Clee2]

New RAIL magazine 848
BI-MODE, battery and hydrogen trains are all set to display alternative traction at this year's Rail Live on June 20th
Porterbrook's Class 769 flex conversion
Vivarail's battery powered D-Train
The Institution of Mechanical Engineers hydrogen powered 10 1/4 inch gauge locomotive

 

[AMD]

It is true that they're coming, Northern train planning are currently working on diagrams for the May timetable change in which the 769s can drop straight into when they do start to arrive - with the anticipation that it'll be late June that they show face.

 

[northwichcat]

I hope it is true and I'm guessing they'll just miss the May 18 timetable change, as crews will need to be trained if they were going to be used on the Windermere and Barrow runs.

There have never been any plans to use them on Barrow services, despite one poster on here frequently saying he thinks they'd be a good train for the Barrow route. The plan was to use them on Windermere services as an interim measure until December 2019, as well as using them on Alderley Edge-Bolton-Wigan and Wigan-Bolton-Stalybridge services. Remember the DfT are funding the scheme in the absence of wiring between Oxenholme and Windermere, Bolton and Wigan and between Manchester and Stalybridge.

Barrow crews are currently learning 158s which will be used on Barrow-Manchester Airport services until the new 195s enter service on that route.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Hopefully this news will be further confirmed (blame the cynic in me). But based on it being true and the plan staying this is very positive news. I just hope they are quick enough on diesel to keep to time on the Victoria-Stalybridge section with 4 TPEs to contend with. The other diesel routes they should be fine. Only concern is slowness on electric through to Alderley Edge.

 

[a_c_skinner]

despite one poster on here frequently saying he thinks they'd be a good train for the Barrow route.

Sorry. Not that frequently I thought...

I do stick with my assertion that people would always prefer seating on a low spec train to standing on a state of the art one and it would be a shame if the connect spec on the franchise left us with fewer seats than we might otherwise have. New trains win votes in a way more seats on re-purposed trains don't.

 

[northwichcat]

Sorry. Not that frequently I thought...

It wasn't you I was thinking of, so it mustn't be that frequently.

 

[stu99]

Must say I don't know where I got Barrow from...but thanks for keeping me right.

 

[northwichcat]

I wonder if this means plans to use 769s on Windermere services have been dropped - it seems Windermere is to get 195s before most of the other Connect routes.

The new trains will initially be used on three routes: Leeds-Chester, Manchester Airport-Blackpool North, and Manchester Airport-Windermere. They will be rolled out to other routes when more trains arrive ^JB

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/975031070751182850

 

[a_c_skinner]

Airport to Blackpool? For new DMUs? I can see Leeds-Chester but wonder if the other are simply wrong.

 

[northwichcat]

Airport to Blackpool? For new DMUs? I can see Leeds-Chester but wonder if the other are simply wrong.

The tweet says new trains not new 195s so it'll be 331s for Blackpool but obviously 331s can't go to Windermere unless CAF fit a battery to them or Network Rail wire Oxenholme to Windermere.

 

[47802]

Airport to Blackpool? For new DMUs? I can see Leeds-Chester but wonder if the other are simply wrong.

Why It means 331's for Blackpool, although at the rate Notwork Rail are progressing it might well be 195's

 

[a_c_skinner]

Ah, sorry. I only post so I can apologise later. You think the 195s will hang on until the Preston - Manchester wires? DMUs don't last that long you know.

Andrew

 

[js1000]

I asked an engineer who works for Arriva last week and he said it's been pushed back to August due to problems converting them at Porterbrook. He also said that the delay in getting the 319s would push back the refurbishment/modification of the 15xs

Even as a rail novice, the idea of putting a diesel engine onto an existing electric unit seems fraught with risk. That's before you remember the 319s are quite unreliable and hardly future proofed with corrosion a particular problem.

I hope for Northern the 769 trial is a success as they are short on diesels and Porterbrook don't want 319s going to waste. I'm sure both Northern and Porterbrook would love to convert more of the 319s into diesels and take all the 323s that WMT are getting rid of. Rarely does a rail solution seem to kill two birds with one stone so well.

 

[a_c_skinner]

Even as a rail novice, the idea of putting a diesel engine onto an existing electric unit seems fraught with risk.

snip...snip

I hope for Northern the 769 trial is a success as they are short on diesels

snip...snip

Rarely does a rail solution seem to kill two birds with one stone so well.

I think that sums up what a lot of people think. Hope it works, hope it works as well as Porterbrook hopes it will. At the moment "fraught with risk" seems to have the upper hand!

Edit: Did I mention Barrow and the Furness line?

New bi-modes seem to have moved up the procurement agenda and I wonder if that will leave the 769s as a lame duck project without enough units to make a viable fleet, even in 319 country.

 

[The_Engineer]

Well, well - what a difference a few days makes....... Now we have Class 769s going to GWR London Division to help free up Class 387s for Heathrow, and displace Class 165/166 diesels for GWRs Bristol and Devon/Cornwall areas. Some speculation (only that at the moment) that Northern may get West Midland based Class 323s to replace Class 319 (to make more Class 769s??).

I am sure the rumour mill will make a lot of all this until it is all properly confirmed.

 

[Bletchleyite]

New bi-modes seem to have moved up the procurement agenda

Do they?

I'd still like to see Northern getting a fleet of FLIRT bi-modes or CAF coming up with one, but I haven't seen a big shift towards new ones yet?

 

[samuelmorris]

387s to Heathrow? I must be out of the loop, where was this announced?