Porterbrook Cl.769 'Flex' trains from 319s, initially for Northern

[sportzbar]

I would dispute that someone who appears to be a teenager with anger issues, and very poor grammar, is somebody who actually knows what they are talking about.

Personally knowing Gary B I can confirm he is not an angry teenager, may have poor grammar but he really does know what he's talking about....

 

[Llama]

We can only bow down and doff our hi-vis vests to the wealth of knowledge and experience of some.

Back to the units, training will have to start soon for a March date to enter service, I've seen some course materials for the 769s which don't look like they're rocket science but only if drivers being trained on them already sign 319s. There was a small push to get a few more stragglers at at least one depot trained on 319s before Christmas after a long period of no 319 courses at all at that depot. Might be indicative or might just be coincidental.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Personally knowing Gary B I can confirm he is not an angry teenager, may have poor grammar but he really does know what he's talking about....

You have my sympathy!

(In all seriousness, I'm sure he's a lovely fellow once you get to know him).

 

[samuelmorris]

I hope that by this time they have found something safer than Lithium to make the batteries from.
I was having a conversation with a friend about electric cars recently. He said that if these batteries are punctured they will blow up emitting deadly fumes and paradoxically diesel is the safest fuel. The DMMU has come back in favour in some other European countries. Voith has recently introduced a new Diesel-Mechanical driveline for Alstom Coradia Lint units. https://www.railjournal.com/rolling...trains-to-be-equipped-with-voith-power-packs/

Nevertheless, let's hope that the 769s are successful for capacity if nothing else.

Traction batteries are generally made from safer setups than smartphone batteries, and Vivarail made quite a song and dance about this with the batteries used in their 230s - they have to be larger and heavier for the same power output, but they're safe from puncture damage. Generally speaking a big battery is similarly dangerous to a big tank of combustible liquid, the only significant difference being you can't really put a lithium fire out. As for the fumes being deadly, they're not great but exposure to them briefly isn't going to kill you. It's not like a burning lithium battery is going to release the equivalent of a nerve gas... it sounds like your friend may have been overhyped about these dangers somewhat.

 

[Meerkat]

The “can’t really put a lithium fire out” is the bit that concerns me.
What do you do with a damaged battery train?
For diesel you put the fire out, blanket foam spillages, check for leaks, then can move the train (not a fireman so some observation and assumption here)
How do you put out a blazing battery pack, and how do you know it is truly safe (I believe an internally damaged lithium battery can spontaneously ignite later??)?
I have an associated fear about battery cars on ferries.....

 

[LOL The Irony]

How do you put out a blazing battery pack, and how do you know it is truly safe (I believe an internally damaged lithium battery can spontaneously ignite later??)?

When Richard Hammond crashed that Rimac at the hillclimb, the batteries were still catching fire 3 days after the accident.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

What was the gradient? Can't have been very steep?

I can't remember but it is sustained from Brent Cross to just north of Borehamwood (about 10 miles) and with short headways in the peak, required very tight running at those speeds to prevent them delaying HSTs and Meridians.

The climb to Elstree is 1 in 176 from the south, and 1 in 200 from the north.
That's very similar to what is found on the L&Y via Bolton, but nothing like the 1 in 90-ish on the Chat Moss route either side of Whiston, or the climb out of Lime St.
Elstree is a fair bit longer, of course.
There's 1 in 70/77 around Guide Bridge if the 319s were ever to be put on the Glossop route.

 

[Mathew S]

The “can’t really put a lithium fire out” is the bit that concerns me.
What do you do with a damaged battery train?
For diesel you put the fire out, blanket foam spillages, check for leaks, then can move the train (not a fireman so some observation and assumption here)
How do you put out a blazing battery pack, and how do you know it is truly safe (I believe an internally damaged lithium battery can spontaneously ignite later??)?
I have an associated fear about battery cars on ferries.....

First off, Lithium Ion battery fires are spectacularly rare. Consider the amount of mobile phones, laptops, and other similarly powered devices you encounter every day, and then think about how many fires you've seen.

Second, there is no actual lithium metal in a lithium ion battery. The metal is present only in the form of a 'salt' solution. This alone makes them much safer than carting around lithium itself. Additionally, the batteries used on trains and cars can be bigger and heavier than in phones etc. and so can be more robustly constructed, and so even safer.

Finally, if they do catch fire, you use a foam extinguisher the same (Cat B) the same as a diesel fire. Others will know more about actalually managing fires than I do, but I really don't think this is an issue that need concern anyone unduly.

 

[bramling]

The climb to Elstree is 1 in 176 from the south, and 1 in 200 from the north.
That's very similar to what is found on the L&Y via Bolton, but nothing like the 1 in 90-ish on the Chat Moss route either side of Whiston, or the climb out of Lime St.
Elstree is a fair bit longer, of course.
There's 1 in 70/77 around Guide Bridge if the 319s were ever to be put on the Glossop route.

I’d be curious to see some more detailed data as to how 319s used to perform on the non-stop St Pancras to St Albans runs. My perception simply from judging speed as a passenger was that they would be only just touching 100 mph if that.

Certainly on the GN side where I have more solid experience to work from the similar 317s and 321s would take until around Hatfield (17 miles!) to achieve 100 mph. By contrast a 365 will reach 100 mph by around Oakleigh Park (8 miles), and a 387 very slightly before that. The above is with a rider that 100 mph doesn’t start until a little way out which imposes a restraint on the 365/387 performance, and how soon 100 mph is attained by these trains is also heavily affected by the neutral section at Wood Green and how the driver handles it.

 

[Llama]

I suspect that if the 319s exceeded 90/95 on a 1/176 rising gradient then they must've been some pretty special 319s.

Even on the WCML between Preston and Wigan they struggle, same on the Bolton lines - 90+ is only possible on the falling gradients.

 

[IamTrainsYT]

There's 1 in 70/77 around Guide Bridge if the 319s were ever to be put on the Glossop route.

they had plans as they were lengthening the platforms however i think now the 323s are being refurbished they gave up on that idea

 

[LOL The Irony]

they had plans as they were lengthening the platforms however i think now the 323s are being refurbished they gave up on that idea

331's were supposed to go on that route iirc.

 

[AM9]

I suspect that if the 319s exceeded 90/95 on a 1/176 rising gradient then they must've been some pretty special 319s.

Even on the WCML between Preston and Wigan they struggle, same on the Bolton lines - 90+ is only possible on the falling gradients.

Well there were plenty that did those sort of speeds and of course they were about 10 years younger when all of the fasts were 319s, but the line was/is so busy that the trains must have been running into yellows at times. However, the usual pattern was to gain the down fasts via the ladder at Carlton Road junction (40-50mph), and then accelerate through the tunnel from there. The initial climb flattens out from just north of West Hampstead to Cricklewood, then falls over 10 metres to the A406/Brent River crossing. At this point the trains are usually into the '80s and when they hit the start of the main climb just north of Slipstream Junction the increase is slower, but at the Elstree Tunnel entrance, the mid-nineties wasn't impossible. In those days, a fair proportion of the TL trains switched back onto the slows just south of Radlett, so once they passed Borehamwood, they almost coasted down to 40mph or whatever the limit was there.

 

[AM9]

I’d be curious to see some more detailed data as to how 319s used to perform on the non-stop St Pancras to St Albans runs. My perception simply from judging speed as a passenger was that they would be only just touching 100 mph if that.

They did only just touch 100'ish in service, - I don't ever think that I've been on one that did more than that.

Certainly on the GN side where I have more solid experience to work from the similar 317s and 321s would take until around Hatfield (17 miles!) to achieve 100 mph. By contrast a 365 will reach 100 mph by around Oakleigh Park (8 miles), and a 387 very slightly before that. The above is with a rider that 100 mph doesn’t start until a little way out which imposes a restraint on the 365/387 performance, and how soon 100 mph is attained by these trains is also heavily affected by the neutral section at Wood Green and how the driver handles it.

The 317s and 321s are slightly lighter (6 tonnes), but the 317s only have 75% of the 319s power, - the 321s have about 8% more power.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’d be curious to see some more detailed data as to how 319s used to perform on the non-stop St Pancras to St Albans runs. My perception simply from judging speed as a passenger was that they would be only just touching 100 mph if that.

Well there were plenty that did those sort of speeds and of course they were about 10 years younger when all of the fasts were 319s, but the line was/is so busy that the trains must have been running into yellows at times. However, the usual pattern was to gain the down fasts via the ladder at Carlton Road junction (40-50mph), and then accelerate through the tunnel from there. The initial climb flattens out from just north of West Hampstead to Cricklewood, then falls over 10 metres to the A406/Brent River crossing. At this point the trains are usually into the '80s and when they hit the start of the main climb just north of Slipstream Junction the increase is slower, but at the Elstree Tunnel entrance, the mid-nineties wasn't impossible. In those days, a fair proportion of the TL trains switched back onto the slows just south of Radlett, so once they passed Borehamwood, they almost coasted down to 40mph or whatever the limit was there.

No hard data, but in my experience services on the down fast struggled to get to 100mph on the run to Elstree. In fact I don’t recall one ever doing it, although one ex works with no passengers on board and a following wind may have done. In the wet they often struggled to get to 60mph. A different story heading towards London, obviously.

Very different now of course. I’ve been on several northbound 700s that call at West Hampstead where the train is at 100mph by the north circular.

 

[childwallblues]

When I passed the new Springs Branch Depot on Tuesday afternoon I noticed that there was a unit stabled at the top end. it was either a 319 or 769. Does anybody know?

 

[Spirit555]

769458 was towed from Castle Donnington to Crewe today, supposedly for main line testing.

Mark

 

[childwallblues]

769458 was towed from Castle Donnington to Crewe today, supposedly for main line testing.

Mark

I assume that this was the 1528 Castle Donnington RfT to Basford Hall SSM due 1700 but did it run?
I did not know that any 769s were stored at Castle Donnington. Are there others at the site?

 

[St. Paddy]

I assume that this was the 1528 Castle Donnington RfT to Basford Hall SSM due 1700 but did it run?
I did not know that any 769s were stored at Castle Donnington. Are there others at the site?

It did run, I’ve seen a picture of it on the BROS Facebook page yesterday being hauled by 57301

 

[childwallblues]

It did run, I’ve seen a picture of it on the BROS Facebook page yesterday being hauled by 57301

Excellent thank you. I got a bit confused with RTT.

 

[jonesy3001]

what is the BROS facebook group, thought they was a group.

 

[Mikey C]

what is the BROS facebook group, thought they was a group.

I have images of Matt and Luke Goss posing proudly next to a Class 769

 

[anthony263]

what is the BROS facebook group, thought they was a group.

I was wondering g what group it was

 

[Elecman]

what is the BROS facebook group, thought they was a group.

British Rail Old School

 

[jonesy3001]

Thank you, that cleared that up.

 

[anthony263]

Tried joining the group waiting to see if they accept me. Gotta wait now and see what they plan on doing now with 769008s millage accumulation

 

[Spirit555]

319422 earmarked to be GWR 769922 is currently on Crewe LNWR sitting on a complete set of overhauled bogies.

Wonder when that escaped from Wolverton.

Mark

 

[OTRail]

319422 earmarked to be GWR 769922 is currently on Crewe LNWR sitting on a complete set of overhauled bogies.

Wonder when that escaped from Wolverton.

Mark

Got any pictures?

 

[Spirit555]

Got any pictures?

Unfortunately no pictures. Seen by a friend in the dark last night, but identified from side numbers

Mark

 

[superkev]

In case it's not been reported this months Modern Railways reports that Northern expect an introduction in March on Wigan to Southport.
K