Portsmouth - Gosport - Southampton Trams

[Kudoson]

Hi, does anyone know what the latest is on the proposal for the Portsmouth - Southampton via Gosport light rail link is? The last we heard was in April 2011 where is looked a real possibility, however with no news since then i'm guessing plans have been scrapped?

Not that wikipedia is anything to go by but it's still listed in proposed lines there.

 

[starrymarkb]

It was killed off by the Navy's requirements for the tunnel under the harbour. It would have been too steep for trams to climb.

The Gosport to Fareham section is now a (unguided) busway

 

[MK Tom]

Died a death sadly. There is a proposal for a heritage tramway in Southampton though.

 

[Kudoson]

Ah that's a shame, surprised I couldn't find anything about what happened online.

It would be nice if Southampton do get a heritage tramway, but i was hoping for a fast connection between the two cities.

 

[BananaRepublic]

....but i was hoping for a fast connection between the two cities.

The current rail service between Southampton and Portsmouth is as fast as you'll get and much faster than any proposed tram route, especially if it takes a detour via Gosport.

 

[Kudoson]

The current rail service between Southampton and Portsmouth is as fast as you'll get and much faster than any proposed tram route, especially if it takes a detour via Gosport.

Well a long time ago the idea was for it to shave off time from the current journey time on a fast train (about 40 mins).

This would have increased the frequency of services as the only fast one is a 3 car 158 to Cardiff every hour.

 

[Greenback]

Well a long time ago the idea was for it to shave off time from the current journey time on a fast train (about 40 mins).

This would have increased the frequency of services as the only fast one is a 3 car 158 to Cardiff every hour.

I can't really see how a Light Rail/Tram link between Portsmouth and Southampton via Gosport could possibly have been faster than the through trains that run now.

Surely the whole idea of such a link would be to provide a freqeunt service to the communities along the route rather than some sort of express service?

 

[Kudoson]

The later plans for the line don't actually seem to stop in Gosport at all

It must be the diversion after the navy not enabling it to go through Gosport. This service will go via Fareham and Netley, cutting the service by 10mins and providing more an hour. Not only that but with that line in place, Portsmouth will finally get a direct train to Southampton Airport on Southampton trains.

" RAIL plans under consultation could see trams running between Portsmouth and Southampton, in an effort to cut journey times and improve services between the cities.

Network Rail has laid out proposals to cut the 41 mins to an hour it takes to travel the roughly 16 miles between Hampshire’s two biggest cities. Its Route Utilisation Strategy which has been reviewed by Transport for South Hampshire, suggests ‘tram-trains or light rail’ services could run between the cities.

They would call at Fareham and travel via Netley.

Trains would still operate between Portsmouth and Southampton, but would divert north at Fareham, calling at Eastleigh and forming a direct service to Southampton Airport Parkway.

The plan would be part of a measure to link the south coast as far east as Brighton, taking in Chichester and Havant, direct to the airport.

‘Train operator Southern has a commitment to re-route the off-peak Brighton to Southampton Central service via Eastleigh, to provide a direct connection to Southampton Airport Parkway.

‘There is a relatively infrequent rail service between Portsmouth and Southampton, an hourly fast service taking 41 minutes and a stopping service which takes an hour. This is not competitive with roads, on which the journey should take 31 minutes.’

http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/tr...to-link-portsmouth-with-southampton-1-2624646

 

[tbtc]

It's not a great rail service between the two cities (even if some connections are available at Fareham/ Havant) - the problem of being a link between two places that aren't on the same radial route from London.

But a tram would never be the answer to "end to end" journeys - there's scope for a tram for medium length journeys, in the way that there's space for a guided busway too (a "one size fits all" policy doesn't work).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

I recall seeing the proposals to convert St Denys-Fareham via Hamble to light rail operation a while ago, but I thought it was too idiotic to be serious. How wrong I was!

I don't entirely follow how light rail could be faster over such a distance - surely if demand is so high solely between Pompey and Southampton, you run a couple of trains an hour non-stop (maybe the FGW service plus another) between the two, via Hamble, and cover the lost stops (Swanwick and Fareham, perhaps Cosham) with another semi-fast service or similar, surely over such a distance and speed a train would beat a tram hands down on that alignment?

 

[BananaRepublic]

Living near and using the line, may I point out that from observation, the majority of local passengers on this stretch of line are not travelling between Soton and Pompey, but are travelling between those cities and the local stations.

Westbound from Fareham onwards, there are 4 tph to Soton.

1x non-stop from Fareham to Soton (the FGW Portsmouth - Cardiff), carrying a high proportion of passengers travelling onwards to Bristol and S. Wales, in addition to local traffic between Pompey, Fareham and Soton.

1x local all stopper (SWT); gradually emptying Pompey originating passengers as it goes along and picking up Soton bound passengers in increasing numbers from Fareham onwards.

2x West Coastway services (Southern) that run alternately between Soton and either Brighton or London Victoria (via Gatwick).
These 2 services bypass Pompey (connections available at Havant, Cosham and Fareham, depending on direction of travel), but carry a large number of local passengers travelling between Fareham, Swanwick and Soton. It is considered to be the main local service for those stations.


Light rail/ tram wouldn't be of any benefit as a replacement of these mainline services, however there is another potential role for such provision.
There are now large areas of settlement with a fairly large population, spread along this part of the south coast, stretching from Totton (west of Soton) to Havant (east of Pompey).
The Fareham - Gosport - Portsmouth tram scheme was turned down, but a Gosport - Fareham - Portchester - Cosham - Pompey route, mostly following the road structure and operating closer to the residential areas, with plenty of stops, would serve a market that is largely not provided for by the heavy rail service. Currently this market is served by various bus services, but dominated by private car use.
Unfortunately, a large section of the disused Fareham - Gosport railway line, slated for use in local light rail, has now been converted into an unguided busway.

West of Fareham, particularly west of the River Hamble, there is no need for a light rail/ tram system to be connected to the Fareham - Gosport - Pompey area, as everything is oriented towards the Southampton area.

 

[swt_passenger]

The 2011 London and SE RUS chapter 11 (which is effectively a mini-RUS updating the south Hants area), explains why giving the Fareham to St Denys route over to light rail completely will probably never happen. However light rail from Fareham to Portsmouth via Gosport was already abandoned some years ago, as already pointed out, hence the BRT which is of course now operational.

The quote above from the Portsmouth News was already pretty much out of date when written, as far as I can see, given the date of the above RUS. Either that or the journalist glanced at the suggestions in the RUS but didn't read any of the follow up explanations why they wouldn't happen - generally due to vast costs of alternative infrastructure.

TfSH has a long-term aspiration to operate tram-train services on the St Denys – Fareham (Netley) line.

Network Rail then spend about half the chapter explaining all the difficulties.

Basically, the existing 4 tph services from FGW, SWT and SN, plus various SWT ECS moves, and last but not least the routine use of the route for diversions of SWT Weymouth services and XC Bournemouth services, (during both planned mainline maintenance and random problems), means that Network Rail cannot give up the route competely for a start.

The Botley line and specifically the Fareham tunnels would also have to be dualled to divert all the heavy rail traffic as well -that's not exactly likely either.

Later they talk about possible use of tram-trains interworking with heavy rail, but NR are pretty ambivalent about that idea as well.

I'd suggest that Kudoson reads chapter 11 of the RUS (below) and then re-reads the News article in that context:

http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse...tegies\RUS Generation 2\London and South East

 

[Kudoson]

Do FGW still operate the Westbury - Soton train? If they could extend that into Pompey and get the timings right then they could make Pompey's connection with Soton and Westbury every 30mins with the Cardiff train. That is if the service is once an hour of course.