Possible combination of HS2 phase 2 with "rail north'

[HSTEd]

So for trains headings south east from Manchester, they first have to travel 20 miles west?

No, such provision would only be for trains heading West or North.

You hae to make alternate arrangements for trains going east.
My personal preference would be an underground triangle junction immediately south of the Picadilly tunnel portals and a line proceeding to join the eastern leg of HS2 somewhere in the vicinity of Barnsley with the appropriate connections for sheffield trains.

But I imagine that is rather too expensive.

 

[edwin_m]

My personal preference would be an underground triangle junction immediately south of the Picadilly tunnel portals and a line proceeding to join the eastern leg of HS2 somewhere in the vicinity of Barnsley with the appropriate connections for sheffield trains.

The changes to the eastern leg which abolished the HS2 Meadowhall station also re-routed it to the east of Sheffield. It's now nowhere near Barnsley.

 

[HSTEd]

The changes to the eastern leg which abolished the HS2 Meadowhall station also re-routed it to the east of Sheffield. It's now nowhere near Barnsley.

IN that case, forget Sheffield and proceed directly to Leeds.

 

[miami]

IN that case, forget Sheffield and proceed directly to Leeds.

Indeed, Sheffield opted out of the core of a high speed network in favour of a spur sercing London. I believe it was Sheffield Council that insisted on this.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

Indeed, Sheffield opted out of the core of a high speed network in favour of a spur sercing London. I believe it was Sheffield Council that insisted on this.

Not entirely true. The council wanted Victoria.

 

[Roger B]

Indeed, Sheffield opted out of the core of a high speed network in favour of a spur sercing London. I believe it was Sheffield Council that insisted on this.

My recollection is that Sheffield Council wanted a direct link into Sheffield for HS2 as this would be more likely to attract business into Sheffield, whereas the original proposal (was it Meadowhall?) would be less successful in doing that (being used more for travel to/from London, than travel to/from Sheffield). That said, I don't think it was the intent of Sheffield to opt-out of a a high speed network - I'd say the reverse was the case - that Sheffield very much wanted to be in - rather than served by a park-and-ride type facility on the outskirts of the city.

 

[HSTEd]

My recollection is that Sheffield Council wanted a direct link into Sheffield for HS2 as this would be more likely to attract business into Sheffield, whereas the original proposal (was it Meadowhall?) would be less successful in doing that (being used more for travel to/from London, than travel to/from Sheffield). That said, I don't think it was the intent of Sheffield to opt-out of a a high speed network - I'd say the reverse was the case - that Sheffield very much wanted to be in - rather than served by a park-and-ride type facility on the outskirts of the city.

The cynic might say that Sheffield wanted the South Yorkshire station to benefit them and not to benefit anyone else like Rotherham etc.
They thus insisted on a Sheffield city centre station that would be little use to anyone outside Sheffield, and demanded that the entire route's operation be compromised to provide them with that.

HS2 gave them a city centre station but refused to compromise Leeds or the North East's scheme for Sheffield's porochial benefit and diverted the line around Sheffield, and we are where we are now.

 

[ohgoditsjames]

The cynic might say that Sheffield wanted the South Yorkshire station to benefit them and not to benefit anyone else like Rotherham etc.
They thus insisted on a Sheffield city centre station that would be little use to anyone outside Sheffield, and demanded that the entire route's operation be compromised to provide them with that.

HS2 gave them a city centre station but refused to compromise Leeds or the North East's scheme for Sheffield's porochial benefit and diverted the line around Sheffield, and we are where we are now.

Doubt it.

Barnsley Council support the current proposals.

Doncaster and Wakefield who already massively benefit from the ECML (and were never going to get a station anyway) are opposed to it despite the fact that they will see benefits from capacity release on the ECML after HS2 is open.

 

[HSTEd]

Doubt it.

Barnsley Council support the current proposals.

Doncaster and Wakefield who already massively benefit from the ECML (and were never going to get a station anyway) are opposed to it despite the fact that they will see benefits from capacity release on the ECML after HS2 is open.

And what about Rotherham?

 

[CdBrux]

A study made for Manchester City Council by Bechtel on the options for integration of HS2 and NPR at Picadilly station has been published via an FOI request

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...Station Final Report.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Lots of options and basically the 'best' option (a fully underground HS2 and NPR station box at right angles to Piccadilly) is said to be roughly 10bn more than HS2 proposal for an all surface and turnback solution, which the report seems to suggest would already bottleneck the Manchester spur. Lots of reading in here!

 

[Purple Orange]

A study made for Manchester City Council by Bechtel on the options for integration of HS2 and NPR at Picadilly station has been published via an FOI request

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/639616/response/1535361/attach/4/Name Redacted Development of Piccadilly Station Final Report.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Lots of options and basically the 'best' option (a fully underground HS2 and NPR station box at right angles to Piccadilly) is said to be roughly 10bn more than HS2 proposal for an all surface and turnback solution, which the report seems to suggest would already bottleneck the Manchester spur. Lots of reading in here!

Interesting reading. Personally I prefer a surface station, but the thing that perplexes me about the 6 platform surface option is that if land usage is an issue, and the original 4 platform HS2 station is deemed to be ok with regards to the amount of land left available for redevelopment, why not keep the original HS2 design and incorporate the current platform 1 and 2 in the main shed for NPR?

 

[Greybeard33]

A study made for Manchester City Council by Bechtel on the options for integration of HS2 and NPR at Picadilly station has been published via an FOI request

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/639616/response/1535361/attach/4/Name Redacted Development of Piccadilly Station Final Report.pdf?cookie_passthrough=1

Lots of options and basically the 'best' option (a fully underground HS2 and NPR station box at right angles to Piccadilly) is said to be roughly 10bn more than HS2 proposal for an all surface and turnback solution, which the report seems to suggest would already bottleneck the Manchester spur. Lots of reading in here!

Where did you get that £10bn figure? I cannot find it anywhere in the document. The only cost estimates for the Bechtel underground station proposal appear to be in section 6.4, "Benefits appraisal". That states (my bolding):

Bechtel has undertaken a qualitative comparison with publicly available information. HS2 Phase 1 Old Oak Common
Station in West London has been considered for comparison as it is a new underground station that will house six 450m
platforms with twin running tunnels for HS2 through services between London-Euston and Birmingham.

HS2’s estimated cost for Old Oak Common Station has been stated as £1bn - £1.3bn, and the design can be considered
as broadly comparable to a HS2 and NPR solution that could be provided at Manchester Piccadilly.

A detailed study of the infrastructure design in conjunction with proposals for regeneration and wider city centre development is recommended to provide a holistic assessment of the costs and benefits.

HM Treasury would undoubtedly want to see a bottom up quantitative estimate, based on a detailed design, before agreeing to fund the Bechtel scheme for an underground HS2/NPR station at Piccadilly. The only design outputs the report provides are Figures 25, 26 and 27, which are little more than crayons on a map and offer three radically different alignments for the proposed underground station. There is no recommendation as to which of these three options should be taken forward.

Given the lack of maturity of this proposal, it seems to me that it would inevitably set back the HS2 Phase 2b hybrid bill by at least a couple of years, while feasibility studies are carried out and a detailed design is developed.

 

[MarkyT]

My recollection is that Sheffield Council wanted a direct link into Sheffield for HS2 as this would be more likely to attract business into Sheffield, whereas the original proposal (was it Meadowhall?) would be less successful in doing that (being used more for travel to/from London, than travel to/from Sheffield). That said, I don't think it was the intent of Sheffield to opt-out of a a high speed network - I'd say the reverse was the case - that Sheffield very much wanted to be in - rather than served by a park-and-ride type facility on the outskirts of the city.

I recall that at the time the decision was announced, very high costs were also becoming apparent for the original Meadowhall route. Adverse ground conditions, quantity of road reconstruction required, and effects on the retail centre were factors involved I believe.

 

[edwin_m]

I recall that at the time the decision was announced, very high costs were also becoming apparent for the original Meadowhall route. Adverse ground conditions, quantity of road reconstruction required, and effects on the retail centre were factors involved I believe.

Going to Meadowhall pretty much forced the route to follow the M1 into the hilly areas around Barnsley where there would be more structures and earthworks and probably issues with former coal mines too. The revised route up the M18 towards Doncaster is much flatter.

 

[deltic]

Given the western leg of HS2 is now progressing as previously planned - its not clear what is happening to the idea of integrating HS2 and NPR in Manchester.

 

[JamesT]

Given the western leg of HS2 is now progressing as previously planned - its not clear what is happening to the idea of integrating HS2 and NPR in Manchester.

Is it? Phase 1 had notice to proceed recently, Phase 2a is still in the parliamentary process. I've not see any reports of anything substantive happening with Phase 2b or whatever might replace it. There was an aspiration to get on with the Western side before the Eastern but nothing concrete.

 

[deltic]

My understanding is that work has recommenced on western leg in terms of design and planning for submission of a hybrid Bill in 2021