Possible plans for Edinburgh Waverley station?

[gsnedders]

This is what's roughly planned for the long term. The current single-lead arrangement for 5 and 6 is only temporary. 3 and 4 look like they're going to be rationalised to leave one big servicing block. Annoyingly the station may need to be renumbered again if 18 is made into a through platform, which makes these discussions a little difficult.

So having been in Edinburgh a fair bit in the past week, I'm a bit confused as to what the plan is for 12/13.

This is the view from the bridge:



Where's any joined up 13/6 going to go there? There's only a narrow gap between the track of 12 and the southern ramp, certainly not space for a track and platform. Or is there space if you demolish the ticket office and all the retail space to run 13 the other side of the ramp without fouling access to 14?

 

[najaB]

Or is there space if you demolish the ticket office and all the retail space to run 13 the other side of the ramp without fouling access to 14?

I believe this is the plan.

 

[385001]

Where's any joined up 13/6 going to go there? There's only a narrow gap between the track of 12 and the southern ramp, certainly not space for a track and platform. Or is there space if you demolish the ticket office and all the retail space to run 13 the other side of the ramp without fouling access to 14?

I believe this is the plan.

What would be the point of joining 13 with 5 without demolishing the ramp. There would surely have to be a large curve!

Connecting 12 and 6 makes sense and you can see that with the design for the new escalator having clearance.

 

[gsnedders]

What would be the point of joining 13 with 5 without demolishing the ramp. There would surely have to be a large curve!

Connecting 12 and 6 makes sense and you can see that with the design for the new escalator having clearance.

The ramp is part of the listed structure though, so will be much harder to get permission to demolish.

 

[edwin_m]

I had a guided tour from a NR person a few years ago (so it may have changed since then) who explained that if 13 is to be extended through, the ramp would have to be removed or possibly made much narrower. The curves needed to run 13 on the other side of the ramp would take a corner off the main building and end up abolishing 14 and maybe 15 too.

 

[Altnabreac]

The ramp is part of the listed structure though, so will be much harder to get permission to demolish.

The ticket office building and ramp both form part of the listing. However the ticket office is older and more part of the original than the ramp so it will be kept with the ramp(s) being removed if required but the central building will not be demolished under any circumstances.

If 13 is being extended and linked to 5 then it will only be if the south ramp is removed or severely altered.

 

[marks87]

Why not connect the ramp to 5, then run trams down it and round the sub?

 

[edwin_m]

Hard to tell from the photo but I think narrowing the ramp to the width of the footway would give enough width for the platform. The left hand wall could be re-built stone by stone in the new location but it gets more complicated further up as the arch would need narrowing and the wall of the ramp beyond it supports part of the roof.

 

[Craig2601]

This is what's roughly planned for the long term. The current single-lead arrangement for 5 and 6 is only temporary. 3 and 4 look like they're going to be rationalised to leave one big servicing block. Annoyingly the station may need to be renumbered again if 18 is made into a through platform, which makes these discussions a little difficult.

What’s the little line at the end on ten next to the platform extension? Is that another platform?

 

[Scotrail84]

What’s the little line at the end on ten next to the platform extension? Is that another platform?

South loop siding, the diagram is wrong though it extends to a buffer end at the ramp of platform 10, not behind it.

 

[Scotrail84]

FWIW I can't see the 13 or 18 extension ever happening. Too expensive imo.

 

[gsnedders]

The ticket office building and ramp both form part of the listing. However the ticket office is older and more part of the original than the ramp so it will be kept with the ramp(s) being removed if required but the central building will not be demolished under any circumstances.

If 13 is being extended and linked to 5 then it will only be if the south ramp is removed or severely altered.

Oh, I meant the little Scotrail office by the end of 13! Definitely the central building cannot be touched.

 

[InOban]

South loop siding, the diagram is wrong though it extends to a buffer end at the ramp of platform 10, not behind it.

It's known as the Klondike, and it's usually occupied during the day by the 92 which will operate the Highlander sleeper. It would seem that, because they want to make 10 full length, they will relocate it outside the wall into the area occupied by platforms 8&9. Didn't know that there was space.

 

[ANWP Tom]

Extension will go no further than it is at this juncture. Addition of extra south bay and redoubling one tunnel to abbeyhill are the only things internally on the table at the moment. Rotational docking is aiming at go live in December to allow better maintenance access within the station and make it more resilient also (Been either the bain of my existence or my baby for the past 6 months depending on your outlook). Only other suggestion that has been made is the wiring of the derelict CS at slateford for use by Shotts line 385s to release ECS capacity between Waverley and Craigentinny at start/end of service.

 

[Carntyne]

Extension will go no further than it is at this juncture. Addition of extra south bay and redoubling one tunnel to abbeyhill are the only things internally on the table at the moment. Rotational docking is aiming at go live in December to allow better maintenance access within the station and make it more resilient also (Been either the bain of my existence or my baby for the past 6 months depending on your outlook). Only other suggestion that has been made is the wiring of the derelict CS at slateford for use by Shotts line 385s to release ECS capacity between Waverley and Craigentinny at start/end of service.

Can you give some info on what rotational docking means? Not heard the term before. Thank you!

 

[Scotrail84]

It's known as the Klondike, and it's usually occupied during the day by the 92 which will operate the Highlander sleeper. It would seem that, because they want to make 10 full length, they will relocate it outside the wall into the area occupied by platforms 8&9. Didn't know that there was space.

Klondyke or South Loop Siding mate.

There isn't room for a line on the 8/9 side.

 

[mcmad]

It's known as the Klondike, and it's usually occupied during the day by the 92 which will operate the Highlander sleeper. It would seem that, because they want to make 10 full length, they will relocate it outside the wall into the area occupied by platforms 8&9. Didn't know that there was space.

There isn't. Presumably the plan is to shorten the siding to the bare minimum (2 locos?) and hope that gives enough room.

Rotational docking I think is alternately using either the North or South side of the station overnight to allow extended maintenance access on the other side of the station. Will be a bit more complicated than that in practise but thats the basic ideas. Been tried out at a major station down south and is being looked at up here for Waverley, Glasgow and Perth I believe.

 

[NotATrainspott]

Extension will go no further than it is at this juncture. Addition of extra south bay and redoubling one tunnel to abbeyhill are the only things internally on the table at the moment. Rotational docking is aiming at go live in December to allow better maintenance access within the station and make it more resilient also (Been either the bain of my existence or my baby for the past 6 months depending on your outlook). Only other suggestion that has been made is the wiring of the derelict CS at slateford for use by Shotts line 385s to release ECS capacity between Waverley and Craigentinny at start/end of service.

Interesting.

That diagram is the sum total of all of the fleshed-out suggestions in the Route Study. In the report there's intermediate steps showing certain platform extensions and the Calton tunnel works, since there's not really a good reason to do it all at once before the capacity is actually required. For instance, joining up 6 and 12 (it could be done without the southern ramp) wouldn't actually deliver much benefit at all right now, while it would immediately require some sort of passenger deck to sort out access arrangements. Until such time as the existing through platforms are full again there won't be any real reason to provide any more. The platform 18 works could well be done in two stages, with a new long bay platform on the eastern side before all of the small commercial units and the northern ramp have to go.

The Slateford carriage sidings idea seems very useful. It'd be a convenient way to get electric trains out of the western side of Waverley without any conflicting movements. Right now, there's nowhere for electric trains on the south lines to go to stable other than on the eastern end. If I'm not mistaken the closest depot without a major conflicting route (as is required to get to Haymarket depot) is Bathgate. ECS runs from Waverley to Slateford wouldn't take up much capacity nor take trains too far off their normal routes.

 

[gsnedders]

The Slateford carriage sidings idea seems very useful. It'd be a convenient way to get electric trains out of the western side of Waverley without any conflicting movements. Right now, there's nowhere for electric trains on the south lines to go to stable other than on the eastern end. If I'm not mistaken the closest depot without a major conflicting route (as is required to get to Haymarket depot) is Bathgate. ECS runs from Waverley to Slateford wouldn't take up much capacity nor take trains too far off their normal routes.

Presumably the other thing that would help is wiring the South Sub, given that would provide access too? Depends on relative costs, I guess.

 

[edwin_m]

Presumably the other thing that would help is wiring the South Sub, given that would provide access too? Depends on relative costs, I guess.

With more EMUs in use more electrified sidings are needed somewhere, so pretty much by definition it's cheaper to wire some that are already easily accessible by an already electrified line than to wire some sidings somewhere to the east and also wire the South Sub.

 

[Scotrail84]

Presumably the other thing that would help is wiring the South Sub, given that would provide access too? Depends on relative costs, I guess.

Slateford carriage siding can't be used, something to do with the housing beside it, too much noise. Thats why it was abandoned in the first place.

For access to Slateford CS a reversal is needed on the Mainline unless trains are arriving from the Midcalder direction. Wiring of the South Sub would make no difference. Same applies when sets are leaving the sidings, a reversal is required to get to Edinburgh.

 

[InOban]

Looking at Google maps, there aren't any houses nearby. But you're right about the access which only leads towards Midcalder although I can't see why a crossover and an eastfacing link couldn't be provided.

 

[Scotrail84]

Looking at Google maps, there aren't any houses nearby. But you're right about the access which only leads towards Midcalder although I can't see why a crossover and an eastfacing link couldn't be provided.

There are flats directly opposite the sidings, on the site of the old glassworks. They've been there maybe 15 years now. They complained about the noise of train movements during the night and I think Edinburgh City council agreed with the residents, end result, Slateford Shut. Such a waste of a really made stabling point. The sidings are not electrified though.

 

[InOban]

I can't see any legal basis for the Council shutting down the existing use. And anyway there wouldn't be much noise from stabling emus rather than dmus.
And after all the first train powering up the line is about 6.30.

Also, road access to the site is poor, so it's difficult to see what else the site could be used for.

 

[ANWP Tom]

That diagram is the sum total of all of the fleshed-out suggestions in the Route Study. In the report there's intermediate steps showing certain platform extensions and the Calton tunnel works, since there's not really a good reason to do it all at once before the capacity is actually required. For instance, joining up 6 and 12 (it could be done without the southern ramp) wouldn't actually deliver much benefit at all right now, while it would immediately require some sort of passenger deck to sort out access arrangements. Until such time as the existing through platforms are full again there won't be any real reason to provide any more. The platform 18 works could well be done in two stages, with a new long bay platform on the eastern side before all of the small commercial units and the northern ramp have to go.

The Slateford carriage sidings idea seems very useful. It'd be a convenient way to get electric trains out of the western side of Waverley without any conflicting movements. Right now, there's nowhere for electric trains on the south lines to go to stable other than on the eastern end. If I'm not mistaken the closest depot without a major conflicting route (as is required to get to Haymarket depot) is Bathgate. ECS runs from Waverley to Slateford wouldn't take up much capacity nor take trains too far off their normal routes.

Millerhill is the main electric base for Edinburgh although 385s have been passed to Bathgate with driver route knowledge being the prohibiting factor currently. Transfer of Electrics to slateford is doable as the noise issues was down to overnight DMU idling on the sidings so noise will be less of an issues. Wiring Slateford is one answer with the other option possibly being the stub roads at the east end of haymarket depot. These areas are where we are looking next as scotrail will have a period of too many units and not enough stabling space. Diagrams for December coming through to look at options over the coming weeks. Shouldn't be an issue once the 314s get binned

Rotational docking basically means that there are 2 overnight stabling and routing plans for Waverley coming on stream. One only using Southlines-Abbeyhill via Carlton south tunnel and the other the north version with Units and through traffic leaving 1/2 the station clear for maintenance and other work to try and reduce the failure rate through better and more regular maintenance. Trying to some up what is currently a 55 meg information stream in a few words is a little difficult lol

 

[Highlandspring]

Carlton south tunnel

Calton

 

[railjock]

Extension will go no further than it is at this juncture. Addition of extra south bay and redoubling one tunnel to abbeyhill are the only things internally on the table at the moment. Rotational docking is aiming at go live in December to allow better maintenance access within the station and make it more resilient also (Been either the bain of my existence or my baby for the past 6 months depending on your outlook). Only other suggestion that has been made is the wiring of the derelict CS at slateford for use by Shotts line 385s to release ECS capacity between Waverley and Craigentinny at start/end of service.

When you say redoubling of one tunnel to Abbeyhill does that mean the three tracks become two at Abbeyhill or will one track go around the old Abbeyhill loop?

 

[gsnedders]

When you say redoubling of one tunnel to Abbeyhill does that mean the three tracks become two at Abbeyhill or will one track go around the old Abbeyhill loop?

One will go round the old Abbeyhill loop.

 

[railjock]

One will go round the old Abbeyhill loop.

Would be good to see it used again.

 

[NotATrainspott]

I'd be surprised if the Abbeyhill third line didn't happen as part of the Calton Tunnel works. The land is all within NR control and having it will make it easier to maintain and enhance the railway. For instance, the loop could be brought back early with slewed track rather than junctions to enable other works along the existing mainline. It may also help quite a lot when the tunnel is closed, as it'd provide a useful loop for trains to be able to re-order themselves before entering the single-line tunnel.