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Possible plans for Edinburgh Waverley station?

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Allwinter_Kit

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I think one of the things they are trying to do is improve the setting of the central building, which is actually quite nice but is overshadowed literally and figuratively by an oppressive overall roof of no particular architectural merit. Having said that the proposed replacement looks a bit UPVC greenhouse. And the interior shows no provision for barriers, which if true will reverse UK rail policy of the last several decades and if false invalidates the passenger flow concept they seem to be assuming.

I'm hoping this is no more than an architect's concept that will be subject to some strong doses of reality before it goes much further.

I concur. The current roof might be listed, but it's little more than a glass Victorian warehouse - that said the benefits of replacing it with a UPVC modern warehouse roof aren't exactly apparent. I think we'll have to wait until we've got a bit more detail than these concept sketches to really see what that's going to actually be like! More important is the much better use of space with the mezzanine, Waverley Bridge, etc. Definite improvements there!

Looking through the website, I see that the roof details are:
"The introduction of a new mezzanine concourse requires greater headroom than is available within the constraints of the existing roof structure. The existing roof is of historic value and forms part of the listing. The masterplan looks to optimise the space in the station concourse and minimise constraints to passengers while retaining the beauty and grandeur of the existing roof structure. The masterplan introduces two potential solutions: raising the roof by +2m over the mezzanine areas only and retaining as much of the existing roof as possible, or replacing the whole roof, with increased headroom throughout the station.

Whilst a new roof could significantly improve spatial quality within the station, as well as achieve greater architectural consistency and design quality outside the station, it would, also result in greater heritage impact on the Category A-listed station. The final roof design decision will be informed by detailed design studies, Heritage Impact Assessments and further consultation with key stakeholders and planning authorities.
 
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railjock

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I concur. The current roof might be listed, but it's little more than a glass Victorian warehouse - that said the benefits of replacing it with a UPVC modern warehouse roof aren't exactly apparent. I think we'll have to wait until we've got a bit more detail than these concept sketches to really see what that's going to actually be like! More important is the much better use of space with the mezzanine, Waverley Bridge, etc. Definite improvements there!
I agree. Something needs to be done and I’m sure any final design will be different anyway.
 

385001

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Well this looks interesting.

Things to welcome:

Waverley Bridge - the image of it being pedestrianised with easy access looks good. Also opens up some views of Balmoral Hotel with existing walls no longer needed.
Market Street looks a lot more open and welcoming. Plenty of opportunities for cafes etc. And a lift to allow access to North Bridge. And an integrated taxi rank. And what looks like a one way system.
Mezzanine looks good. Lots of nice views as soon as we get off the train.
Bye bye ramps so longer platform extensions and more through platforms possible
Access points and crossings - A dedicated cycle route from Market Street to Calton Road! Also a new route from Market Street to Calton Road so that's a thumbs up from me! And what looks like direct access points to/from East Princes Street Gardens.

Not so much:

The Market Street picture doesn't look to too sympathetic when you look towards Princes Street although this is is just a masterplan and they do say they will now commission further technical and engineering studies to develop the plan, particularly to identify the most appropriate roof solution. No doubt the Cockburn Assoication will be involved so I'll wait to see the final design before I totally poo poo it.

Overall, I like it. Transformational.
 

InOban

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A significant part of the listing of the roof is down to the ornate cast iron pillars which support it. I can't see a good solution here. And the pillars are a major constraint to the positioning of the platforms.
 

najaB

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A significant part of the listing of the roof is down to the ornate cast iron pillars which support it. I can't see a good solution here. And the pillars are a major constraint to the positioning of the platforms.
Move the pillars. And for height, you cut them at the mid-point and extend with matching cast iron work. Once painted, nobody will ever be able to tell that they were shorter before.
 

ian1944

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I have in mind Wemyss Bay, very much a Victorian greenhouse in style, which remains its charm and interest. Clearly, Waverley's problems of congestion don't apply, so nobody is proposing to convert it into a 21st century garden centre in appearance. But part of Waverley's visual interest continues to be that which is proposed for removal, and I'd be sorry to see the complete implementation of this plan.

Incidentally, "stakeholders" we expect, but is "permeability" a new buzzword, or am I behind the times? And I noticed "St Andrews Square", factually wrong but grammatically wrong even if factually correct.
 

Altnabreac

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Interestingly platform wise its proposing an additional 2 bays at the eastern side of the station for 6 long eastern bay platforms in total as well as the additional extension of Platform 18 through the station.

Joining up 5/6 to 12/13 seems to have been rejected which I think is sensible.

Definitely going to need renumbering. Personally I've always quite liked the clockwise system but I wonder if a north to south system would work better after this change?
East End 1-10
1 and 2 stay the same
new 3 (extension of 18)
new 4 (new bay)
3 becomes 5
new 6 (new bay)
4 becomes 7
5 becomes 8
6 becomes 9
7 becomes 10

West End are numbered 11-20 so the same platform at the West is just 10 higher than at the east:
20 becomes 11
19 - 12
18 - 13
17 - 14
16 - 15
15 - 16
14 - 17
13 - 18
12 - 19
11 - 20

Then the 3 southern islands are numbered in the twenties:
10 becomes 21
9 becomes 22
8 becomes 23

So your 4 single face / double length platforms are numbered:
1 / 11
2 / 12
3 / 13
10 / 20
 

YorksLad12

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Interestingly platform wise its proposing an additional 2 bays at the eastern side of the station for 6 long eastern bay platforms in total as well as the additional extension of Platform 18 through the station.

Thanks for explaining the platform layout. The lines from the labels don't quite match up with the platforms in the image above, so I couldn't work out why the platform 18 "extension" seemed to be a whole new platform through the station linking two bay stubs... which it actually is.

On numbering: last time I was there I saw platforms 1/20, 2/19, 8E/8W - should be one or the other for clarity for us poor visitors. P19 could have done with some better signposting as well...
 

385001

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Interestingly platform wise its proposing an additional 2 bays at the eastern side of the station for 6 long eastern bay platforms in total as well as the additional extension of Platform 18 through the station.

Joining up 5/6 to 12/13 seems to have been rejected which I think is sensible.

Yes that is very interesting. Hopefully that means a solution to the Calton tunnels is in place for all those trains to be able to use the platforms.

Also interesting that current platform 18 is the new plan for an additional through platform on the northern part of the station. What benefits would this have? Easier for through services from Borders to Fife for example?
 

edwin_m

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I have in mind Wemyss Bay, very much a Victorian greenhouse in style, which remains its charm and interest. Clearly, Waverley's problems of congestion don't apply, so nobody is proposing to convert it into a 21st century garden centre in appearance. But part of Waverley's visual interest continues to be that which is proposed for removal, and I'd be sorry to see the complete implementation of this plan.

Incidentally, "stakeholders" we expect, but is "permeability" a new buzzword, or am I behind the times? And I noticed "St Andrews Square", factually wrong but grammatically wrong even if factually correct.
It's not actually the case but I sometimes feel I have to duck under the girders that support the roof, when using the bridge that crosses the station above platform level. To get under those girders it also has to have steps down from Market Street - I think there's a lift too but two changes of level to get to the platforms makes it less convenient for PRMs.

Permeability is the opposite of severance in planner-speak - the ability to get through a particular area, usually on foot.
 

Altnabreac

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I have in mind Wemyss Bay, very much a Victorian greenhouse in style, which remains its charm and interest. Clearly, Waverley's problems of congestion don't apply, so nobody is proposing to convert it into a 21st century garden centre in appearance. But part of Waverley's visual interest continues to be that which is proposed for removal, and I'd be sorry to see the complete implementation of this plan.

Incidentally, "stakeholders" we expect, but is "permeability" a new buzzword, or am I behind the times? And I noticed "St Andrews Square", factually wrong but grammatically wrong even if factually correct.

Yes permeability is a standard phrase in urban planning, there isn't really an obvious "plain english" alternative as it's used to mean "multiple points of access providing routes into the station" so permeability is a much snappier way of saying that.
 

NotATrainspott

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There's no real reason why a new roof couldn't be as good as or better than the roof which exists today. Whatever happens at Waverley will be a high-profile custom job so the extra effort required, for instance, to add classical detailing to any new columns would be fairly minimal in the grand scheme of things.

I think a good way of thinking about it would be to ask what the original architects and designers would think. Would Edward Alfred Cowper have wanted the concrete Bullring shopping centre plonked on top of his station at New Street? Probably not. Would the architect of the current Waverley station complain about an even higher, even brighter, even grander glass roof replacing his own? I don't think so.

The original consultation seemed to suggest we'd see a lot of shops, but they seem to have disappeared. I wonder if that's because of the expectation the shops and services would be adjacent, e.g. in a comprehensively rebuilt Waverley Mall. I think it would be a good idea for NR or whoever to take control of the entire site, including the Balmoral, Waverley Gate and the sandstone buildings on Market Street so that they could all be integrated together.
 

InOban

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In my comments to the original consultation I said that it would be better if they could take over the other Market st buildings, currently an Art gallery and the Edinburgh Dungeon. It would make a much better Integrated design, especially for the taxis, most of which will be coming from the West (the Mound) and will need to turn round to return that way. There's really nothing that can be done to make any entrance further along the street more inviting/dramatic since it faces the cliffs which are the back of the Old Town.
And while I appreciate the desire of the City to encourage people not to arrive by car, there will always be people who want to pick up or drop off, even see off, their families or other guests, and some provision for short stay parking, not necessarily free
Currently Waverley Bridge is used by the City Tour buses and by the direct airport bus. Where will they be displaced to?
 

OmniCity999

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Currently Waverley Bridge is used by the City Tour buses and by the direct airport bus. Where will they be displaced to?

Airlink 100 is currently and apparently long term would be based at South St David Street, outside TKMaxx.

Bus tours and charters are departing from the north side of St Andrew Sqaure. Again, i believe this would be the long term plan. But, few regular bus services are departing from North St Andrew Square, so couldnt see both working long term.
 

Blindtraveler

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Oh dear. This is the city council's vision for a tourist friendly, locals not welcome international disaster city adopted by network rail and transformed into something that will not only give those bothered about historic built heritage a series of painful coronary events but what is largely in my opinion unnecessary.


whilst the situation for taxi and private hire passengers is not going away anytime soon and has been much criticised locally if there is money to blow the calton tunnels and and some other way of filtering trains out of the station and the city to the west that bypasses Haymarket and it's congestion seems a far better solution to me



Little point in building more platform capacity when the the tracks through the gardens and Haymarket are already full which I believe to now be the case working of course on the basis that we go back to something that looks like normal post virus.


I shall now disappear into the background from whence I came whilst everyone tells me that I'm an idiot for thinking any of this.

Oh and maybe the only other improvement that might go down well within the current station would be some more toilets and a general sprucing up of the current ones. Yes I know it's not all that long since they were done but they see excessively heavy usage and as there is only the one set they are shattered
 

jopsuk

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Dropping the platform 5/6-12/13 link seems reasonably sound, though it appears that the proposed design doesn't preclude reviving that plan. How long are the various extensions going to be? I'm guessing this will give platform 10 the capacity for 250m trains (making it available for London services)- the same for 20 & 1?
 

Altnabreac

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Oh dear. This is the city council's vision for a tourist friendly, locals not welcome international disaster city adopted by network rail and transformed into something that will not only give those bothered about historic built heritage a series of painful coronary events but what is largely in my opinion unnecessary.


whilst the situation for taxi and private hire passengers is not going away anytime soon and has been much criticised locally if there is money to blow the calton tunnels and and some other way of filtering trains out of the station and the city to the west that bypasses Haymarket and it's congestion seems a far better solution to me



Little point in building more platform capacity when the the tracks through the gardens and Haymarket are already full which I believe to now be the case working of course on the basis that we go back to something that looks like normal post virus.


I shall now disappear into the background from whence I came whilst everyone tells me that I'm an idiot for thinking any of this.

Oh and maybe the only other improvement that might go down well within the current station would be some more toilets and a general sprucing up of the current ones. Yes I know it's not all that long since they were done but they see excessively heavy usage and as there is only the one set they are shattered

There is capacity on the north lines at Haymarket, just not the south lines.

So you have view the additional platform capacity at the west in combination with an Almond Chord project and the additional capacity at the east needs to be accompanied by Calton Tunnels and Portobello Junction - Niddrie South enhancement.

To be fair to Network Rail / SG all three of these projects are under development.
Portobello design is being done by Arup as part of a £23m study:
This design contract contains a possible extension to look at "a Multi-disciplinary programme of works with the following possible interventions: Edinburgh Waverley East Throat re-modelling; Calton tunnel twin tracking); Abbeyhill additional tracking; ECML Quad tracking."

Almond Chord is being designed up by Jacobs in a £15m study:

So it's not like the approach work needed to take advantage of new platform capacity isn't being investigated and designed alongside the expanded station.
 

takno

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Oh dear. This is the city council's vision for a tourist friendly, locals not welcome international disaster city adopted by network rail and transformed into something that will not only give those bothered about historic built heritage a series of painful coronary events but what is largely in my opinion unnecessary.


whilst the situation for taxi and private hire passengers is not going away anytime soon and has been much criticised locally if there is money to blow the calton tunnels and and some other way of filtering trains out of the station and the city to the west that bypasses Haymarket and it's congestion seems a far better solution to me



Little point in building more platform capacity when the the tracks through the gardens and Haymarket are already full which I believe to now be the case working of course on the basis that we go back to something that looks like normal post virus.


I shall now disappear into the background from whence I came whilst everyone tells me that I'm an idiot for thinking any of this.

Oh and maybe the only other improvement that might go down well within the current station would be some more toilets and a general sprucing up of the current ones. Yes I know it's not all that long since they were done but they see excessively heavy usage and as there is only the one set they are shattered
Much as a lot of what is happening annoys me, this transformation of the station is being proposed for the benefit of residents and workers in the city. There is huge population expansion happening across the city and the wider Lothians, and until February at least there was rapid growth in the numbers of people working in the centre.

Tourists for the most part probably enjoy arriving in an olde-worlde Victorian station. The council's tourism plan for the coming years in any case explicitly turns it's back on the previous plan for breakneck growth, and seeks to increase value and better manage the visitors we have rather than growing the numbers
 

swt_passenger

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Much as a lot of what is happening annoys me, this transformation of the station is being proposed for the benefit of residents and workers in the city. There is huge population expansion happening across the city and the wider Lothians, and until February at least there was rapid growth in the numbers of people working in the centre.

Tourists for the most part probably enjoy arriving in an olde-worlde Victorian station. The council's tourism plan for the coming years in any case explicitly turns it's back on the previous plan for breakneck growth, and seeks to increase value and better manage the visitors we have rather than growing the numbers
Isn’t this just another iteration of the proposals discussed back in 2018 in this thread? None of it seems to be much different, looking back.
 

Altnabreac

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Isn’t this just another iteration of the proposals discussed back in 2018 in this thread? None of it seems to be much different, looking back.

Yes, this is the next level of design detail of the 2018 proposal. That had a number of different optional ideas and they've firmed up which of those are being taken forward. Will move onto more detailed design now incorporating feedback from this round of consultation.
 

NotATrainspott

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Oh dear. This is the city council's vision for a tourist friendly, locals not welcome international disaster city adopted by network rail and transformed into something that will not only give those bothered about historic built heritage a series of painful coronary events but what is largely in my opinion unnecessary.


whilst the situation for taxi and private hire passengers is not going away anytime soon and has been much criticised locally if there is money to blow the calton tunnels and and some other way of filtering trains out of the station and the city to the west that bypasses Haymarket and it's congestion seems a far better solution to me



Little point in building more platform capacity when the the tracks through the gardens and Haymarket are already full which I believe to now be the case working of course on the basis that we go back to something that looks like normal post virus.


I shall now disappear into the background from whence I came whilst everyone tells me that I'm an idiot for thinking any of this.

Oh and maybe the only other improvement that might go down well within the current station would be some more toilets and a general sprucing up of the current ones. Yes I know it's not all that long since they were done but they see excessively heavy usage and as there is only the one set they are shattered

What are you annoyed about? The existing station is a complete mess from the perspective of a passenger, and there's really not a lot that can be done to fix that until you put in the mezzanine level. The existing bridge level is squashed between the roof and the electrification, leaving little room for improvements.

Pretty much the only obvious regression in recent years has been the loss of the internal taxi rank in favour of new platforms. As much as everyone enjoyed the ability to be accidentally run over by an ancient taxi belching out diesel fumes indoors, the space is better used to run more trains.
 

vlad

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Would Edward Alfred Cowper have wanted the concrete Bullring shopping centre plonked on top of his station at New Street? Probably not.

It doesn't matter what he'd have thought as the Bull Ring was built round the corner.

Is it known what he thought about the Midland Railway station being built next door to "his" New Street? :smile:
 

InOban

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If they replace the roof entirely, this would presumably allow them to remove the South (Klondike) wall, Integrating platforms 8&9 into the rest?
And indeed relocating the pillars would allow the excessively wide through platforms (7/11 and 2/20, I think) to be narrowed. This would permit the restoration of through non-platform tracks with crossovers in the middle.
 
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NotATrainspott

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If they replace the roof entirely, this would presumably allow them to remove the South (Klondike) wall, Integrating platforms 8&9 into the rest?
And indeed relocating the pillars would allow the excessively wide through platforms (7/11 and 2/20, I think) to be narrowed. This would permit the restoration of through non-platform tracks with crossovers in the middle.

The mezzanine would give you maximum flexibility to have whatever track layout you wanted underneath. Today the bridge level needs custom treatment over the tracks due to the low OHLE clearances. With the plan to raise the concourse up to the Market Street level, the track clearances will not be a problem for any foreseeable development, even fitting GC-gauge platforms for future high speed rail.

I think people's desire for the station to be kept as-is is based on three main ideas:
  • Preserving the history of the station
  • Preserving the Victorian styling
  • Preserving the craftsmanship inherent in traditional buildings (for lack of any reasonable alternative!)
The history angle isn't clear-cut. The railway is a vital piece of national infrastructure and not a museum piece. The original engineers of our railway legacy would most likely be horrified at the idea of holding back the progress of the railway just to preserve what they had left us. The Victorians had no qualms about continually rebuilding their infrastructure as needs demanded - the current Waverley station is just the last of a series of iterations over the course of the 19th century.

I can definitely see the history case applying to individual parts of the station. Most obviously you have war memorials, statues and other artwork. Getting rid of them, especially if they resonate culturally with the wider population, is going to be fraught with difficulty. This can often be managed but it requires careful thought on the part of a station reconstruction planning team.

The Victorian styling and craftsmanship is something it's reasonable to be concerned will be lost in a new station. Back then, people had some better idea of how to make buildings and things look good. A Victorian facade with big sash and case windows and varying floor-to-ceiling heights is probably universally considered better looking than a modern one. Modern manufacturing techniques have enabled some great new pieces of design and architecture but they have also made it much easier to churn out terrible looking things at scale.

Even then, both of these can be dealt with. Given that the building is Grade A listed, the heritage bodies can already enforce that traditional styling and techniques are used. If NR want to re-instate some windows then they'll either need to be original style sash and case, or they'll need to be a design sufficiently modern and pared-back to accentuate the other Victorian styling around them. Hyper-modern plate glass boxes are acceptable to planning bodies largely because they're also very easy to undo if a proper restoration is desired in future. The special entrance built for the General Assembly building to act as a temporary Scottish Parliament is a reasonable example - it was successfully undone when it was no longer required. King's Cross or the Great Court of the British Museum are more permanent examples of the same idea.

If, for instance, NR et al worked out that it would be best to remove or move the Klondyke wall as part of the mezzanine plans, then I'm sure they'd be able to do it subject to some conditions. For instance, it's pretty likely that a similar wall could be put in a similar place. The existing wall could be recorded and dismantled, with the original sandstone being rebuilt in the new location. It might make sense to reimagine the wall by not reinstating most of the wall sections underneath the archways, but leaving the rest of the design and scale untouched. With the relative difficulty of finding large quantities of high quality sandstone in matching colours I'd be surprised if they did anything else, to be honest. The rebuilt wall would need to be rebuilt in the traditional fashion with proper stonework done by stonemasons. The sorts of things which NR normally do to save costs, like using pre-fab concrete platform wall sections designed to look like brick rather than having time-consuming bricklaying work at track level, would not be acceptable.

Still, any destructive work to the heritage needs to be properly justified. If it's just to save a bit of money, then people won't be happy. NR couldn't ever justify knocking down the central booking hall building because their own projections show that there will be no need for more through platforms than can fit to the north and south. The bigger the outcome, the easier it'll be to justify changes. For instance, I think the most likely reason for the reconfiguration of the Klondyke wall and the southermost platforms would be to fit in some consistent TSI-compliant platforms for high speed rail services. Waverley is long enough for 400m trains but it's not a good idea for the platforms to be as heavily curved as they are right now at points.
 

InOban

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There's nothing I hate more than 'fake old' - building alterations to match the original. Much better to have the new a clear contrast to the old, as at Glasgow Queen Street.
 

d9009alycidon

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If I remember rightly, the North British Railway did not want the low roof that they eventually had to use, they were constrained by an old by-law, the"ancient lights" which was (is?) the right of a building or house owner to the light received from and through his windows. Windows used for light by an owner for 20 years or more could not be obstructed by the erection of an edifice or by any other act by an adjacent landowner. Fears were that something like a grand arch bridge similar to St Enoch would destroy the view over Edinburgh
 

NotATrainspott

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There is a special rule that prohibits building too high in the Waverley valley. NR mentioned this in the original consultation, and had a cross-section showing that their proposal for a raised roof would still be lower than what is permitted. It's possible there were other restrictions in place for the original railway company, but I think NR will have an easier time resolving that now.
 

najaB

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There is a special rule that prohibits building too high in the Waverley valley. NR mentioned this in the original consultation, and had a cross-section showing that their proposal for a raised roof would still be lower than what is permitted. It's possible there were other restrictions in place for the original railway company, but I think NR will have an easier time resolving that now.
Also, modern construction techniques mean that they can have a lot less visually intrusive roof design than would have been possible in Victorian times through longer, more slender spans and fewer supports.
 

takno

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Also, modern construction techniques mean that they can have a lot less visually intrusive roof design than would have been possible in Victorian times through longer, more slender spans and fewer supports.
They could probably do a better job of the castle as well. I mean if they flattened the site properly you could get a nice modern office in with level access from the George V Bridge.
 

waverley47

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They could probably do a better job of the castle as well. I mean if they flattened the site properly you could get a nice modern office in with level access from the George V Bridge.
Especially if you added in an escalator for the American tourists, that long walk up from Princes Street is a killer.

In all seriousness, Waverley desperately needs sorting. It's too complex and the lack of circulation space is showing, especially during the festivals. If the cost of that is the loss of a few cast iron girders, and moving the pillars around/replacing them like for like with a modern equivalent, then by all means it should go ahead.

I'm all for historical sympathy, but the only part of the station with any real legacy is the booking office, and that doesn't look like it's ever going to go. This redevelopment is probably going to sort the station for the long term, barring any platform alterations for a future high speed line, but that is decades away. Personally, I say about time.
 
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