Possible Prosecution Help

[Hannah]

I have a Question about prosecution for not having a train ticket...

I got on to my train this morning after having purchased my ticket at Bramhall and then got of in stockport and got onto a platform in which i showed the conductor my ticket and was allowed onto the flatfrom after realising i was on the wrong platform i ran to get my train and tried to put my ticket into my bag. i got into manchester piccadilly and got my ticket out of my bag and went to the exit which i was then stopped at for having an invalid ticket. after searching though my bag it became aparent that i had lost my ticket in stockport when i was running for my train. i was more then happy to give the guy my details and he said i will receive a letter basically saying what i had said to him and i had to reply with my account of what happened..

I just wanted to know what was going to happen as i know people have had this problem before and thy have been taken to court and i really cant afford to do that....

 

[island]

Welcome to the forum. You're in the right place.

Over the course of the next few posts, people may ask you for further questions and clarification, and may challenge some of the answers you give. Please don't take this as us accusing you of anything, but rather helping you to defend your case, as these are questions you could well be asked for real later on. It's ultimately up to you what information you give us here (and this is a public forum), but please, once you've decided what you're going to tell us, don't drip-feed it over several posts. We'll do our best to help you and explain the next steps of what happens. We also will tell it as it is; there are other forums who apply a "customer is always right" attitude but if we think you've dug yourself a hole we will tell you.

You have time on your side for the moment until you receive the letter, which normally takes several weeks.

1. When you got your ticket out of your bag at Manchester Piccadilly, which ticket was this? You said you think you may have lost your ticket in Stockport. Did you present a ticket for inspection in Manchester Piccadilly that you knew to be invalid?

2. What ticket did you buy originally at Bramhall? Do you happen to have a receipt or proof of purchase?

 

[Hannah]

the ticket i got out of my bag was a bramhall to manchester ticket which is what i usually get to work. i got the ticket which i thought was the ticket i got in bramhall out of my bag which was from yesterday. i know i should have looked at the dates but it didnt cross my mind.

I usully buy a season ticket from bramhall for a month but im moving house so i dont see the point in buy it atm so im only buying single fare.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No i dont have anything to prove i have bought it... the ticket office at bramhall never give out receipts so it's never anything i have thought about.

Will it lead to having to go to court? if i say im willing to pay the fines and admin fee's outside of court will that go against me or work in my favour? this is my first ever offence and im not sure how to go about it.

 

[ian13]

No i dont have anything to prove i have bought it... the ticket office at bramhall never give out receipts so it's never anything i have thought about.

Did you, by any chance, pay by card?

Do you still have your old tickets and old season tickets to show this is a route you do (and pay for) regularly?

 

[Hannah]

i didn't pay by card because it was saying that my card was declined even tho i took out £10 the night before. i had to pay by cash otherwise i wasen't allowed on the train. yeah i keep all my tickets in my season ticket holder.

 

[reb0118]

Right, let's get this straight. You are stating that you purchased a ticket at Bramhall for travel to Manchester. You changed trains at Stockport and were required to show your ticket at the platform there. Upon arrival at Manchester you presented a ticket at the gates there with yesterday's date on it.

It is therefore your belief that you lost your original ticket whilst changing trains at Stockport and produced yesterdays ticket in error at Manchester.

I have a few questions for you. Did you buy a single or a return? The return portion may help as proof of purchase. How did you pay for your ticket at Bramhall? If you paid by card/cheque then there will be a proof of purchase.

NB Proof of purchase is NOT the same as holding a valid ticket but it may help disprove "Intent to avoid payment of a rail fare".

Two of the options that the railway have are prosecutions under the byelaws or under the Regulations of Railway Acts 1889 [RoRA 1889]. The byelaw [18(2)] is less serious and is a strict liability offence in that the railway does not have to prove intent - the offence in non recordable and carries a penalty of a fine. The RoRA 1889 is much more serious but the onus is on the railway to prove intent to avoid the fare - this offence is recordable and will show up on CRB checks - you can also be fined and/or imprisoned (prison is highly unlikely for a first offence so please don't worry too much about that).

Now for some home truths - the onus is on you the passenger to hold a valid ticket whilst travelling at all times. If you do not then under the above legislation then you commit an offence. That said all is not lost. In most cases, but not all, for a first offence the railway often settles out of court upon an apology, payment of the fare due, and a suitable administrative penalty. I would not make any offer of payment at this stage but await the letter arriving. You will be asked for your side of the events and you are more than welcome to ask someone here to proof read your reply to avoid you incriminating yourself further. I will not volunteer any specific member but someone may contact you via PM.

Not much more to add at this stage as you will have to await the letter. Easy to say but try not to worry too much in the meantime.

Cheers.


Sorry I'm a slow typer so note that you didn't pay by card.

 

[bb21]

Do you remember what questions you were asked on arrival at Manchester and what your responses were?

 

[Hannah]

i only got a single as i'm staying in Manchester tonight. Like i said before i had to pay by cash as it was saying my card had been declined. when i have paid by cash and card bramhall never give me a receipt i havent had one and ive been getting a train from there every morning since march.

Thanks for the information. this has been really helpful. i will await the letter and take it from there.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the guy who stopped me asked to see my ticket so i handed it over and he asked me if i was aware that it wasen't a valid ticket so i apologised and said i had picked up the wrong one and went to go into my bag to get the right one which i couldn't find. he then asked me where i purchased my my ticket so i told him bramhall this morning he then asked what i did after getting my ticket which was go into stockport end up on the wrong platform and then had to run to get to the right one. he then asked me for my address and contact number which i was more then happy to give him as this is the first time i have ever committed an offence. he then rang someone up to double check my address was right which it was and then said i will receive a letter soon and i need to write my account of what happened on the space provided and send it back.

 

[soil]

Just wait till (if!) you receive the letter, then come back then.

 

[reb0118]

Like i said before i had to pay by cash as it was saying my card had been declined

I'm not sure if this would be recorded - it may show an attempt to pay but unfortunately this is not proof of purchase

every morning since march.

Another long shot but if you are a regular traveller then you may be known to the clerk on duty - he may remember you purchasing a ticket esp if your card declined previously. Not all clerks have a photographic memory though - that is why they are not guards!

Thanks for the information. this has been really helpful. i will await the letter and take it from there.

No probs. You can check back on previous posts here to see some resolutions. Not all are doom & gloom. Good luck.

 

[IanXC]

I'm not sure if this would be recorded - it may show an attempt to pay but unfortunately this is not proof of purchase

As above its not proof of purchase but could support your case. Your bank may be able to provide details of the declined transaction but will typically only hold this information for a very limited time.

 

[trainophile]

...then got of in stockport and got onto a platform in which i showed the conductor my ticket and was allowed onto the flatfrom...

I'm puzzled by this bit (not the typos). Why would the conductor "on the platform" want to see your ticket, if you were not leaving the station, just changing trains? At which point while you were changing trains was your ticket required to be shown?

 

[bb21]

I'm puzzled by this bit (not the typos). Why would the conductor "on the platform" want to see your ticket, if you were not leaving the station, just changing trains? At which point while you were changing trains was your ticket required to be shown?

I believe that Stockport station can be manually barriered sometimes in the subway at the entrance to each platform.

 

[reb0118]

Why would the conductor "on the platform" want to see your ticket, if you were not leaving the station, just changing trains? At which point while you were changing trains was your ticket required to be shown?

For "Conductor" read gateline/barrier staff. When changing platforms you may be required to show your ticket to enter/leave. The last time I used Stockport (to travel on the fast & frequent Stalybridge Express) I was required to show my ticket when arriving from Manchester off a connecting train

 

[Hannah]

the platform i got of the train at in stockport i thought would be the same side as the manchester train. When i found out that it wasen't i had to leave that flat form via the stairs and go the the one next to it. they have conductors at every plat form in the morning.

 

[yorkie]

Will it lead to having to go to court? if i say im willing to pay the fines and admin fee's outside of court

If you reach an out of court settlement then it wouldn't technically be a fine.

A settlement is better than a fine, both for the Company (as the money you pay goes directly to them) and for you (as the amount will be less than a fine, and the possible prospect of a conviction is avoided).

Northern generally will reach out of court settlements with anyone who is not previously known to them, based on the feedback I've seen.

 

[trainophile]

Thanks all for clarifying re. the arrangements at Stockport. I'm not familiar with that station myself. Sounds a bit like Shrewsbury.

 

[Wath Yard]

Were you travelling to work in Manchester? Why did you alight at Stockport? Why did you change platforms at Stockport?

All morning trains from Bramhall to Stockport appear to continue to Piccadilly and most services to Manchester arrive/depart from platforms 3 or 4 at Stockport which does not require the use of the stairs.

I'm not trying to disprove your story but trying to understand what happened, and whether these details may be considered by Northern.

 

[clagmonster]

In this case, as far as I can tell you are guilty of the byelaw 18 offence of failure to show on demand a valid ticket and Northern should have no problem proving this. This is the less serious possible offence and is not recordable.

However, they may attempt to prosecute for 'intent to avoid payment'. As the incident was very recent, assuming there is some I would obtain CCTV footage of the Bramhall booking office showing you purchasing the ticket, and also from Stockport station showing the interchange, the barrier ticket inspection. You may find that it shows the ticket being dropped. Also if you keep all your other tickets, it should show that you regularly pay your fare.

 

[Hannah]

i'm moving house and my new house is only across the road form stockport train station as i had to drop my key of for my house mate so i got the train as i know it is quicker and got of in stockport.

Thanks for all your help guy's. i feel alot better now that you have all explained what i should do. this is the first time it has happened so i was scared was to what the outcome would be as i had no info on it at all.

 

[maniacmartin]

i'm moving house and my new house is only across the road form stockport train station as i had to drop my key of for my house mate so i got the train as i know it is quicker and got of in stockport.

I'm a bit confused by this. Did you break your journey and leave Stockport station to drop the key off at your new house? If so that would explain why you had to show your ticket.


Also, regarding the ticket office not giving out receipts, this is a requirement under their merchant agreements with Visa/Mastercard so you should always be given a receipt if you pay by card (although I see that you paid by cash in this instance). TVMs typically print receipts on the normal orange ticket stock.

 

[jojomonster]

have you received your letter? this situation is very similar to mine. you have my sympathy.

 

[Hannah]

no i haven't actually received anything yet... but i don't know if that's a good thing or not ''/. i had completely forgot about it actually. but it is something that does scare me when i do think about it.