Post HST Highland Mainline Timetable?

[Clansman]

I don't think missing out Kingussie makes any sense at all. The point of the railway is to transport people from A to B and it will not be doing that.

It's 20 minutes on the bus, not 15, and the buses do not interface with the railway. They are about every two hours and very unreliable. It doesn't make sense at all.

Although I may have misunderstood you. Are we talking about missing out Kingussie from the *additional* services or to reduce the number of trains calling there overall?

Where are these rumours coming from?

The rumours circulating are in regards whether or not Kingussie will see a reduction in services. A lot of them are coming from up North among locals and rail staff.

I'm suggesting that instead of taking a hit in services, it would instead not be a call for additional services, in order to match Abellio's journey time commitment between Edinburgh and Inverness to around 3 hours.
That way ScotRail would be able to improve journey times, without reducing the services at the likes of Kingussie and Dunkeld.

Whether this will be the case or not remains to be seen.

 

[InOban]

I've been chasing this up also, from people I know who work for ScotRail.

A lot of them are linking the rumours to Abellio's commitment to reducing journey times from Inverness to Edinburgh to 3 hours - of which they initially laughed at when hearing about it. But, cut out Kingussie (aswell as Dunkeld and those in Fife), and you can get a good powerful run on the double section from Blair Atholl and on the straight from Newtonmore and Kingussie. It's only 15 minutes on the bus to Aviemore also, so it has sufficient transport links as it is, one might say.

How ScotRail would work around the single sections without rejigging everything is beyond me.

So, logic would say that the Edinburgh services would take the hit, and with the extra services coming into force next year, ScotRail would most likely be able to get away with omitting Kingussie on the new Edinburgh services, and allow passengers to change at Perth on the Glasgow services (which already connect to the Perth-Edinburghs).

It makes sense, to be honest in some aspects, whether it's reality is another thing. Definitely an issue to keep close tabs on.

Plenty of local bus services? I just searched online and there are virtually none. Plenty of express coaches which bypass everywhere except Aviemore.

 

[Clansman]

Plenty of local bus services? I just searched online and there are virtually none. Plenty of express coaches which bypass everywhere except Aviemore.

I said sufficient transport links, which includes trains as well. There's room for improvement on the road, and next year there will be rail improvements with a better frequency to Perth.

 

[jingsmonty]

I seriously doubt Dunkeld will be hit. Can't say about the smaller stations but residents have my support for sure although as discussed upthread maybe a case of request stops???

Request stops on the Highland Mainline are definetly a BAD idea - having to slow to 20-25mph for a station just in case there is anybody wishing to board is a recpie for delays/incidents (such as overshoots & fail to calls) - not to mention low adhesion! Far better to have a fixed, reliable stopping pattern that suits all users.
Request stops are only suitable for low use rural lines (and are a cause of delay on the Kyle/Far North lines, due to the lack of time in the timetable for them).

Would be surprised if Kingussie loses any of its trains - given the work that's ongoing with Platform 2 just now.

Can't see the timetable being hugely different to what's currently running, will be years before this 'hourly service' can be delivered (if it ever is...) - the infrastructure doesn't support this (as someone else said) and the staff aren't there to run such an enhanced timetable either.

 

[gsnedders]

It sounds like a lot of this is caused by a franchise requirement to run services that take under three hours without any work on the infrastructure side of actually making that possible without eliminating stops, and hence ultimately Transport Scotland's doing?

 

[Northhighland]

There are growing rumours locally on Speyside that Kingussie WILL lose HST calls and that it's only Aviemore and Pitlochry that'll get the full complement.

This has been corroborated to me today via the even more alarmed residents of Dunkeld who think that the current 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh or its equivalent will cease to make its 0830 call, and so we could lose our 0738.

Draft timetables are being demanded from Transport Scotland and politicians, but this one needs to be watched very closely if it's the way they think that they're going to speed up services. Noone mentioned that intermediate stations could go down the pan with no alternative.

Half the time at the moment 'non stop' trains are a joke anyway - they end up waiting in a loop for a crossing train with their doors shut.

I'd appreciate it if everyone on this thread started to get on the case with this one, it might be nothing, but the stories have been breaking out at opposite ends of the line today.

If anyone from Scotrail or TS is reading this, I'd strongly advise quick public communication with local people, and not just the usual Community Council talking shops, there's a risk of it blowing up.

Sitting just now on the 15:07 Queen Street to Inverness service. train is absolutely rammed, people have been standing since leaving Glasgow. Would make sense to me to stop Glasgow to Inverness services calling at Dunblane, Stirling etc. First stop should be Perth.

Leave services North of Perth, but stop overcrowding between Perth and Glasgow and Edinburgh.

 

[Northhighland]

Sitting just now on the 15:07 Queen Street to Inverness service. train is absolutely rammed, people have been standing since leaving Glasgow. Would make sense to me to stop Glasgow to Inverness services calling at Dunblane, Stirling etc. First stop should be Perth.

Leave services North of Perth, but stop overcrowding between Perth and Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Left Perth and train is still got people standing gets worse everytime you travel. hard to see why I take the train, could be sitting in air-conditioned car listening to radio instead of packed like sardines in a overcrowded hot train with noisy kids.

 

[47271]

The particular story doing the rounds yesterday, and getting everyone in a flap, is specifically that the crucial 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh would be speeded up and miss the Kingussie (0738) and Dunkeld (0830) stops. At present this is the first southbound service of the day for Kingussie and the second for Dunkeld. The first Dunkeld service, ex Blair Atholl, is good for getting to Edinburgh just after 9, but is a bit early for the majority of people heading in for meetings etc. Even now the 0650 doesn't call at Carrbridge, Newtonmore, Dalwhinnie or Blair Atholl.

Certainly speaking for Kingussie, it was the very particular nature of the rumour, and that it applies to an existing lifeline service, that made everyone start to take this seriously.

 

[Altnabreac]

I don't think missing out Kingussie makes any sense at all. The point of the railway is to transport people from A to B and it will not be doing that.

It's 20 minutes on the bus, not 15, and the buses do not interface with the railway. They are about every two hours and very unreliable. It doesn't make sense at all.

Although I may have misunderstood you. Are we talking about missing out Kingussie from the *additional* services or to reduce the number of trains calling there overall?

Where are these rumours coming from?

It has always been pretty clear that when the extra services start running the only stations served by all services will be Pitlochry and Aviemore.

A roughly 1tp2h service (similar to now) for Kingussie and Dunkeld and less frequent calls for Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore and Carrbridge.

It is inevitable that recasting a service like that will have winners and losers but generally everyone's services will be faster.

I can see why you might want to lobby about stops in specific trains but generally a 1tp2h service is reasonable for Kingussie.

 

[Highland37]

It sounds like a lot of this is caused by a franchise requirement to run services that take under three hours without any work on the infrastructure side of actually making that possible without eliminating stops, and hence ultimately Transport Scotland's doing?

Sort of but every time I suggest significant investment in HML it seems to be laughed out of the town. The A9 dualling is really going to hit the HML and probably wipe out freight. Why would you put freight on the railway once the A9 is dualled?

I don't know why, but for some reason, supporters of the railway are nowhere near as vocal or foresighted as supporters of the roads.

It needs a lot of money spent on it but there seems to be little appetite from rail supporters. I mean things like gauge enhancement at Killiekrankie, a lot more double tracking, better signalling and better track quality. Where's the calls for these though?

 

[Highland37]

It has always been pretty clear that when the extra services start running the only stations served by all services will be Pitlochry and Aviemore.

A roughly 1tp2h service (similar to now) for Kingussie and Dunkeld and less frequent calls for Blair Atholl, Dalwhinnie, Newtonmore and Carrbridge.

It is inevitable that recasting a service like that will have winners and losers but generally everyone's services will be faster.

I can see why you might want to lobby about stops in specific trains but generally a 1tp2h service is reasonable for Kingussie.

I agree. My point was in reference to someone saying the bus was a solution. It really isn't!

 

[JohnR]

It sounds like a lot of this is caused by a franchise requirement to run services that take under three hours without any work on the infrastructure side of actually making that possible without eliminating stops, and hence ultimately Transport Scotland's doing?

Yes it is.

 

[47271]

It has always been pretty clear that when the extra services start running the only stations served by all services will be Pitlochry and Aviemore.

Not at all clear until now to anyone using Kingussie station. We've always worked on the basis that all services stop here, not least because Newtonmore is almost as large a settlement close by and receives a woeful service, and southbound anyone from Kincraig will always head this way rather than to Aviemore.

Anyway, nobody's going to have a nervous breakdown over a train here and there, the principal dismay is around the threat to the early morning southbound, this needs to be resolved ASAP.

They need to come clean with a draft timetable. I don't believe for a moment that there isn't one out there. We might all be delighted, hi 5 the authorities and move on, or we might have a lot more to say on the subject.

 

[Bald Rick]

The service on the highland line is somewhat irregular. The last two times I have been walking the hills round there I drove up. If Dalwhinnie had a better service, I would still drive up. I have a lot of kit, most of which I don't want to take up the hills every day, so it stays in the car. Mostly drying off.

Also walking is very day and weather dependent. Last time I was up there, I didn't see a single person on the hills all day. This was a weekday in the middle of Summer.

 

[tbtc]

Plenty of local bus services? I just searched online and there are virtually none. Plenty of express coaches which bypass everywhere except Aviemore.

That perhaps tells its own story about whether the intermediate demand is worth delaying the long distance passengers for.

Since my day, when all of the Inverness coaches seemed to stop at every road end/ village north of Perth, the services have been sped up significantly, so much so that they often don't even bother serving central Perth - the P&R on the edge of the city is sufficient for connections.

Many of the Glasgow - Inverness coaches now seem to be non-stop from Glasgow to Aviemore.

I appreciate that CityLink caters for a different market to ScotRail, and the time penalties can be more significant (in terms of pulling off the A9, dealing with the narrow roads in some towns/ villages, then trying to get back onto the dual carriageway again - compared to stopping in a train station that you are passing through at relatively low speed anyway)...

...but if the train is to compete with the coach then the fact that CityLink/ Megabus aren't too worried about the Pitlochry - Kingussie market (or insert any two intermediate places that you want other than Aviemore) may be worth bearing in mind.

(I'm not arguing that any station is a massive loser when the timetable is recast, just that the long distance market seems to be more significant and the overall improvements seem generally positive AFAICS)

 

[BRX]

The service on the highland line is somewhat irregular. The last two times I have been walking the hills round there I drove up. If Dalwhinnie had a better service, I would still drive up. I have a lot of kit, most of which I don't want to take up the hills every day, so it stays in the car. Mostly drying off.

Not everyone has a car. Not everyone can drive.

 

[Clansman]

Aside from Kingussie and Dunkeld, I'm surprised there hasn't been a similar uproar about Nairn and Forres potentially being under threat, knowing that there will be new hourly locals from Inverness to Elgin, and the relocated station at Forres will see speeds significantly raised through the town and on that line. A2I also has journey time commitments in the franchise agreement to bring it down by 20 minutes to around 2 hours by 2030.

Again, although it's not confirmed by anyone, it does look like the timetabling plan for the HSTs will fit in along these lines if the improved journey times are to be met (unless there's another way?) - with new local services being the backbone for allowing stop omissions on HST services to the nearest city. For example, the Montrose to Inverurie locals would allow Dyce and Kintore to be omitted, and the new Inverness to Elgin locals allow Nairn, Forres and Dalcross to be omitted, allowing full benefit of the higher speeds through the new line and station at Forres, on HST services, as well as the extra capacity created on that stretch as a result of it becoming a loop. But like Kingussie and Dunkeld's situations, the most likely scenario would be that the omitted stations would still receive their current frequency, as well as enhanced frequencies to the nearest main hub.

Plan foiled ScotRail, plan foiled?

 

[Altnabreac]

Not at all clear until now to anyone using Kingussie station. We've always worked on the basis that all services stop here, not least because Newtonmore is almost as large a settlement close by and receives a woeful service, and southbound anyone from Kincraig will always head this way rather than to Aviemore.

Anyway, nobody's going to have a nervous breakdown over a train here and there, the principal dismay is around the threat to the early morning southbound, this needs to be resolved ASAP.

They need to come clean with a draft timetable. I don't believe for a moment that there isn't one out there. We might all be delighted, hi 5 the authorities and move on, or we might have a lot more to say on the subject.

Well if you had read any of the feasibility studies it would have been clear.

Kingussie is a lovely wee village but ultimately it has a population of less than 2,000 which is not sufficient to justify an hourly intercity train service.

 

[jingsmonty]

The particular story doing the rounds yesterday, and getting everyone in a flap, is specifically that the crucial 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh would be speeded up and miss the Kingussie (0738) and Dunkeld (0830) stops. At present this is the first southbound service of the day for Kingussie and the second for Dunkeld. The first Dunkeld service, ex Blair Atholl, is good for getting to Edinburgh just after 9, but is a bit early for the majority of people heading in for meetings etc. Even now the 0650 doesn't call at Carrbridge, Newtonmore, Dalwhinnie or Blair Atholl.

Certainly speaking for Kingussie, it was the very particular nature of the rumour, and that it applies to an existing lifeline service, that made everyone start to take this seriously.

Not any more - the 0536 Inverness-Edinburgh stops at Kingussie. It's not exactly a premium service, though - a 158 with no trolley! Is what used to be the Blair Atholl - Edinburgh train, starts in Inverness since Dec 16 timetable change

 

[jingsmonty]

Aside from Kingussie and Dunkeld, I'm surprised there hasn't been a similar uproar about Nairn and Forres potentially being under threat, knowing that there will be new hourly locals from Inverness to Elgin, and the relocated station at Forres will see speeds significantly raised through the town and on that line. A2I also has journey time commitments in the franchise agreement to bring it down by 20 minutes to around 2 hours by 2030.

Again, although it's not confirmed by anyone, it does look like the timetabling plan for the HSTs will fit in along these lines if the improved journey times are to be met (unless there's another way?) - with new local services being the backbone for allowing stop omissions on HST services to the nearest city. For example, the Montrose to Inverurie locals would allow Dyce and Kintore to be omitted, and the new Inverness to Elgin locals allow Nairn, Forres and Dalcross to be omitted, allowing full benefit of the higher speeds through the new line and station at Forres, on HST services, as well as the extra capacity created on that stretch as a result of it becoming a loop. But like Kingussie and Dunkeld's situations, the most likely scenario would be that the omitted stations would still receive their current frequency, as well as enhanced frequencies to the nearest main hub.

Plan foiled ScotRail, plan foiled?

Can't believe Dyce would be omitted from the Inverness - Aberdeen trains, its one of the busiest ones on the route with pots of through passengers travelling to the airport (including offshore workers). Predict an uproar if this is proposed!

 

[47271]

Not any more - the 0536 Inverness-Edinburgh stops at Kingussie. It's not exactly a premium service, though - a 158 with no trolley! Is what used to be the Blair Atholl - Edinburgh train, starts in Inverness since Dec 16 timetable change

Sorry, you're quite right about the early service getting extended back to Inverness since December. I was paying too much attention to someone from Dunkeld who was upset about the main matter in hand, which is the 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh. They wouldn't have noticed that the early train isn't a Blair Atholl starter any more. I should have done!

 

[47271]

Well if you had read any of the feasibility studies it would have been clear.

Kingussie is a lovely wee village but ultimately it has a population of less than 2,000 which is not sufficient to justify an hourly intercity train service.

Fair enough, it's just come as a bit of a shock to ordinary users. Ordinary users don't read Transport Scotland feasibility studies.

I suspect that once everyone can see that they're not going to lose any existing services then it'll calm down. That's what needs to be cleared up.

 

[Altnabreac]

Fair enough, it's just come as a bit of a shock to ordinary users. Ordinary users don't read Transport Scotland feasibility studies.

I suspect that once everyone can see that they're not going to lose any existing services then it'll calm down. That's what needs to be cleared up.

I suspect they might well lose existing services (although to be honest I suspect most services are going to have to change a fair bit so they may not exactly resemble current services).

I'm fairly sure nowhere will have less stops than now. Whether those stops are at exactly the same time though is another matter.

As you say the early arrival in Edinburgh trains are important politically so could well see stops removed in exchange for extra stops in other services.

 

[InOban]

Not everyone has a car. Not everyone can drive.

And you can return from a different station. For example you can walk from Dalwhinnie to Corrour.

 

[Highland37]

Aside from Kingussie and Dunkeld, I'm surprised there hasn't been a similar uproar about Nairn and Forres potentially being under threat, knowing that there will be new hourly locals from Inverness to Elgin, and the relocated station at Forres will see speeds significantly raised through the town and on that line. A2I also has journey time commitments in the franchise agreement to bring it down by 20 minutes to around 2 hours by 2030.

Again, although it's not confirmed by anyone, it does look like the timetabling plan for the HSTs will fit in along these lines if the improved journey times are to be met (unless there's another way?) - with new local services being the backbone for allowing stop omissions on HST services to the nearest city. For example, the Montrose to Inverurie locals would allow Dyce and Kintore to be omitted, and the new Inverness to Elgin locals allow Nairn, Forres and Dalcross to be omitted, allowing full benefit of the higher speeds through the new line and station at Forres, on HST services, as well as the extra capacity created on that stretch as a result of it becoming a loop. But like Kingussie and Dunkeld's situations, the most likely scenario would be that the omitted stations would still receive their current frequency, as well as enhanced frequencies to the nearest main hub.

Plan foiled ScotRail, plan foiled?

Where are you getting this information from or are you merely speculating? It's seems like speculation presented as something with substance behind it.

 

[Clansman]

Where are you getting this information from or are you merely speculating? It's seems like speculation presented as something with substance behind it.

It's simply speculation with substance, as you said. The information I know is that there is a commitment in the ScotRail franchise to reduce journey times from Inverness to Aberdeen, as well as Inverness to Edinburgh, whilst providing hourly services on each line, and local services between Elgin and Inverness. Given the times are significant, and both HML and A2I are both single lines for most of the journey - it's a wonder how ScotRail are going to achieve this.

The rumours circulating about Dunkeld and Kingussie and what not bare similarities to Forres and Nair's situation in terms of there being a significant journey time commitment. The fact that Forres station is being relocated to allow trains to loop, as well as lifting the speed limits through the town significantly, would not only allow hourly locals to run but allow the new committed hourly frequency HSTs to bypass them in order to meet the journey time commitment of 2 hours from Aberdeen to Inverness.
Same would go for Kintore and Dalcross also. But like Kingussie and Dunkeld for example, ScotRail would get away with not stopping the new services there.

Apart from the above scenario, I can't see how ScotRail can improve journey times by an average of 20 minutes from both Inverness to Aberdeen/Edinburgh.

 

[JohnR]

Same with the journey time improvements from Edinburgh/Glasgow to Aberdeen. Theres been no infrastructure work in preparation for the HSTs, so the only solution to chopping 20 minutes off the journey time is to cut out the stops.

 

[signallerscot]

In 2013/14 there was an HST linespeed enhancement scheme on the Highland mainline and the Ladybank to Hilton line, as well as the junction remodelling at Ladybank which took the junction for the Perth line from 40mph to 75mph. So Infrastructure work has been done.

 

[Liam]

In 2013/14 there was an HST linespeed enhancement scheme on the Highland mainline and the Ladybank to Hilton line, as well as the junction remodelling at Ladybank which took the junction for the Perth line from 40mph to 75mph. So Infrastructure work has been done.

But wouldnt't they still have to slow down to switch across to the Up line?

 

[Blindtraveler]

I will still support any worthwhile campaign on services but a bit of googling throws up no suggestions of cuts at some of these stations other thana load of moaning local h1t sturers in the areas concerned.
I honestly genuinely cannot see the likes of Dunkeld having any major alterations and agree with those upthread that on the HSTs the first/last stop before/after Edin/Glasgow should be Perth. That in itself will save a good chunk of time.

BTW I wasnt suggesting some on this thread are moaning but no doubt some foalk in the areas concerned are getting a bit Histerical and probably for no reason