Post HST Highland Mainline Timetable?

[Highland37]

It's simply speculation with substance, as you said. The information I know is that there is a commitment in the ScotRail franchise to reduce journey times from Inverness to Aberdeen, as well as Inverness to Edinburgh, whilst providing hourly services on each line, and local services between Elgin and Inverness. Given the times are significant, and both HML and A2I are both single lines for most of the journey - it's a wonder how ScotRail are going to achieve this.

The rumours circulating about Dunkeld and Kingussie and what not bare similarities to Forres and Nair's situation in terms of there being a significant journey time commitment. The fact that Forres station is being relocated to allow trains to loop, as well as lifting the speed limits through the town significantly, would not only allow hourly locals to run but allow the new committed hourly frequency HSTs to bypass them in order to meet the journey time commitment of 2 hours from Aberdeen to Inverness.
Same would go for Kintore and Dalcross also. But like Kingussie and Dunkeld for example, ScotRail would get away with not stopping the new services there.

Apart from the above scenario, I can't see how ScotRail can improve journey times by an average of 20 minutes from both Inverness to Aberdeen/Edinburgh.

Fair enough. I can going to dismiss your concerns until there is some evidence behind them. I am sick of this country being so negative and the hysteria whipped up on a mere rumour is depressing.

 

[jingsmonty]

In 2013/14 there was an HST linespeed enhancement scheme on the Highland mainline and the Ladybank to Hilton line, as well as the junction remodelling at Ladybank which took the junction for the Perth line from 40mph to 75mph. So Infrastructure work has been done.

Sorry, but the line speed enhancement project in 2013/14 on the HML was specifically for 'Sprinter' type trains - the boards are marked 'SP' and not 'MU' or 'HST', therefore don't apply to the HST's. This will make a big difference, as, for example, Dalnaspidal to Black Tank (just south of Dalnacardoch) is 85mph for Sprinters (inc 170s) - with a short 75mph restriction at Dalnacardoch itself, wheras an HST can only do 75mph the whole way down. Numerous other examples as well. No actual work was done, as far as I'm aware - was purely an increase in linespeed.

Perhaps there will be a local instruction that these board will apply to SCOTRAIL HSTs when they are introduced? Seems ludicrous if not!

The HML needs PROPER infrastructure improvements (more loops/doubling), which I asked about at an Abellio staff roadshow (just before they took over the franchise) - I was told that 'the infrastructure improvements would be scheduled to be in tandem with the introduction of HSTs...Hmmm....

 

[Blindtraveler]

Fair enough. I can going to dismiss your concerns until there is some evidence behind them. I am sick of this country being so negative and the hysteria whipped up on a mere rumour is depressing.

Good point well made here.

Oh and whilst Im being grumpy and controvercial I will say that I have many a doubt that HML 1TPH and/or journeytime cut is unachievable and should be added to file P for pipedream and W for wibble, along with the Shortbread quaint tourism experience they think the sleaper can survive on and the mess they have made/tried to make with ferrys in the last 6 or 7 years to name just 2 Govd/TS contracts.

 

[najaB]

But wouldnt't they still have to slow down to switch across to the Up line?

50mph on the crossover, I *think* it was 30mph before.

 

[JohnR]

Fair enough. I can going to dismiss your concerns until there is some evidence behind them. I am sick of this country being so negative and the hysteria whipped up on a mere rumour is depressing.

Then how do you suggest that the journey time improvements will be made? Especially given that theres been no linespeed improvements done in preparation for these trains?

 

[Clansman]

Fair enough. I can going to dismiss your concerns until there is some evidence behind them. I am sick of this country being so negative and the hysteria whipped up on a mere rumour is depressing.

Fair enough, as you said there's a lack of evidence so we don't know for certain what's going to happen in the end.

But if you want sugar coatings, go visit a fantasy thread.

The rumour circulating about Kingussie being axed is still worth being discussed, regardless of how negative it is - after all the thread was split in order to specifically discuss the timetable. We could all sit and say how amazing it is for journey times being cut on Intercity journeys in Scotland, but the initial topic of discussion arose through the concern of Kingussie and Dunkeld paying the price, so obviously discussing the probability of this based on facts we already know does no harm at all.

 

[anti-pacer]

Couldn't a couple of trains a day stop at less stops, such as the following;

Glasgow QS-Stirling-Perth-Pitlochry-Aviemore-Inverness
Edinburgh-Kirkcaldy-Perth-Pitlochry-Aviemore-Inverness

Glasgow QS-Perth-Dundee-Aberdeen
Edinburgh-Kirkcaldy-Dundee-Aberdeen

 

[47271]

I've done some more digging around the rumours today, and as far as passengers are concerned, they're coming from Community Council members. I don't know about the source of the ones circulating within Scotrail.

The CCs apparently are in the loop on proposals with the Hitrans and Tactran RTPs but aren't for sharing more widely since neither the Kingussie or Dunkeld CCs have published their minutes online since the spring. Neither can I find anything of use on Hitrans or Tactran sites. As an aside, Hitrans' site features images of Scotrail trains in National Express and First livery, so they're right on the button, not.

More helpfully, I've also seen a letter today from Transport Scotland to a Dunkeld user which confirms a number of principles of the new HML timetable - none of which look at all controversial - but it won't be drawn on specific trains. The letter also states that the principles have been presented to and 'warmly received' by the RTPs and community groups. Most significantly, it also says that Scotrail will consult *later in the year* on specific calling points. The letter concludes by referring the user back to Tactran, which he'll do next week. For my part, I'll do my bit with Hitrans too.

Maybe the principles were warmly received at the time, but instead it seems some CC members are going around creating scare stories around individual trains when, as far as I can see, there's no official basis for them to be doing this.

It makes you wonder about the value of the role of Community Councils. I'll post more proper info when I get it.

 

[Altnabreac]

I've done some more digging around the rumours today, and as far as passengers are concerned, they're coming from Community Council members. I don't know about the source of the ones circulating within Scotrail.

The CCs apparently are in the loop on proposals with the Hitrans and Tactran RTPs but aren't for sharing more widely since neither the Kingussie or Dunkeld CCs have published their minutes online since the spring. Neither can I find anything of use on Hitrans or Tactran sites. As an aside, Hitrans' site features images of Scotrail trains in National Express and First livery, so they're right on the button, not.

More helpfully, I've also seen a letter today from Transport Scotland to a Dunkeld user which confirms a number of principles of the new HML timetable - none of which look at all controversial - but it won't be drawn on specific trains. The letter also states that the principles have been presented to and 'warmly received' by the RTPs and community groups. Most significantly, it also says that Scotrail will consult *later in the year* on specific calling points. The letter concludes by referring the user back to Tactran, which he'll do next week. For my part, I'll do my bit with Hitrans too.

Maybe the principles were warmly received at the time, but instead it seems some CC members are going around creating scare stories around individual trains when, as far as I can see, there's no official basis for them to be doing this.

It makes you wonder about the value of the role of Community Councils. I'll post more proper info when I get it.

The general principle is an hourly service with 4 stops between Perth and Inverness. 2 of those will be Pitlochry and Aviemore. 1 will be Kingussie or Dunkeld. 1 will be Blair Atholl / Newtonmore / Dalwhinnie / Carrbridge.

The early morning / late night services are likely to call at most/all of the 8 intermediate stations.

Lets assume there will be around 16 services per day and 3 of those (first in morning and 2x evening trains) will stop at all stations.

Aviemore 12 - 16 trains
Pitlochry 12 - 16 trains
Kingussie 12 - 10 trains
Dunkeld 11 - 10 trains
Blair Atholl 6 - 6 trains
Dalwhinnie 6 - 6 trains
Newtonmore 5 - 6 trains
Carrbridge 6 - 6 trains

In reality I suspect they will try to keep the current number of calls at Kingussie and Dunkeld, however you can see the major beneficiaries will be Aviemore, Pitlochry and through passengers.

 

[jingsmonty]

It sounds like a lot of this is caused by a franchise requirement to run services that take under three hours without any work on the infrastructure side of actually making that possible without eliminating stops, and hence ultimately Transport Scotland's doing?

Probably spot on...

 

[jingsmonty]

Sort of but every time I suggest significant investment in HML it seems to be laughed out of the town. The A9 dualling is really going to hit the HML and probably wipe out freight. Why would you put freight on the railway once the A9 is dualled?

I don't know why, but for some reason, supporters of the railway are nowhere near as vocal or foresighted as supporters of the roads.

It needs a lot of money spent on it but there seems to be little appetite from rail supporters. I mean things like gauge enhancement at Killiekrankie, a lot more double tracking, better signalling and better track quality. Where's the calls for these though?

That is EXACTLY what is needed..there's NO way an hourly service will be feasible without it! The HML struggles just now, sometimes

 

[jingsmonty]

The general principle is an hourly service with 4 stops between Perth and Inverness. 2 of those will be Pitlochry and Aviemore. 1 will be Kingussie or Dunkeld. 1 will be Blair Atholl / Newtonmore / Dalwhinnie / Carrbridge.

The early morning / late night services are likely to call at most/all of the 8 intermediate stations.

Lets assume there will be around 16 services per day and 3 of those (first in morning and 2x evening trains) will stop at all stations.

Aviemore 12 - 16 trains
Pitlochry 12 - 16 trains
Kingussie 12 - 10 trains
Dunkeld 11 - 10 trains
Blair Atholl 6 - 6 trains
Dalwhinnie 6 - 6 trains
Newtonmore 5 - 6 trains
Carrbridge 6 - 6 trains

In reality I suspect they will try to keep the current number of calls at Kingussie and Dunkeld, however you can see the major beneficiaries will be Aviemore, Pitlochry and through passengers.

That sounds plausible...suppose we'll just have to wait and see. One point I made earlier is that there will have to be a big recruitment drive for staff, as we only have enough to cater for the current level of service - this needs to be done at least a year (bare minimum) before the enhanced service kicks off..

 

[47271]

The general principle is an hourly service with 4 stops between Perth and Inverness. 2 of those will be Pitlochry and Aviemore. 1 will be Kingussie or Dunkeld. 1 will be Blair Atholl / Newtonmore / Dalwhinnie / Carrbridge.

The early morning / late night services are likely to call at most/all of the 8 intermediate stations.

Lets assume there will be around 16 services per day and 3 of those (first in morning and 2x evening trains) will stop at all stations.

Aviemore 12 - 16 trains
Pitlochry 12 - 16 trains
Kingussie 12 - 10 trains
Dunkeld 11 - 10 trains
Blair Atholl 6 - 6 trains
Dalwhinnie 6 - 6 trains
Newtonmore 5 - 6 trains
Carrbridge 6 - 6 trains

In reality I suspect they will try to keep the current number of calls at Kingussie and Dunkeld, however you can see the major beneficiaries will be Aviemore, Pitlochry and through passengers.

The principles outlined in the letter are centred more on the day to day objectives of the passenger than service frequencies or counts of calls, and I take that to be a positive. To quote:

The timetable planning process is underway. The following principles have been developed for calls at intermediate stations on the route:

- Early morning arrival in Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness

- An arrival into Perth for 0900

- Midday arrival into Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness

- Late afternoon departure from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness

- Late evening departure from Edinburgh, Glasgow and Inverness

The second of these points, regarding a 9am arrival into Perth, suggests that intermediate stations will enjoy a service equivalent to that provided by the current 0650 Inverness-Edinburgh which reaches Perth around 0850 at the moment. In other words, the scare around the 0738 ex Kingussie and 0830 ex Dunkeld appears to be bogus.

 

[Bald Rick]

And you can return from a different station. For example you can walk from Dalwhinnie to Corrour.

You can walk from Perth to Dalwhinnie too. Not many people do though as, like Corrour to Dalwhinnie, it's a long way!

 

[Clansman]

You can walk from Perth to Dalwhinnie too. Not many people do though as, like Corrour to Dalwhinnie, it's a long way!

Cycling is a popular option also. And I suspect it will get even popular when the HSTs come into service

 

[Bald Rick]

Not everyone has a car. Not everyone can drive.

But most people who live in that part of the world can and do; it's a necessity of life in remote rural areas.

 

[Bald Rick]

Cycling is a popular option also. And I suspect it will get even popular when the HSTs come into service

Not sure how popular is 'popular', but the number of cyclists I saw at Corrour on my last visit (a whole day in the summer holidays) was the same as the number of walkers. Nil.

 

[Clansman]

Not sure how popular is 'popular', but the number of cyclists I saw at Corrour on my last visit (a whole day in the summer holidays) was the same as the number of walkers. Nil.

Popular enough that upon arrival into Dalwhinnie, the bikes and luggage over filled a pair of "Scenic" 158s.

It's more popular for groups to do the full Perth to Inverness route though, thus avoiding the hassle of storage on the trains altogether - especially how unforgiving luggage and bike space is on the Highland Mainline.

 

[BRX]

But most people who live in that part of the world can and do; it's a necessity of life in remote rural areas.

I'm very aware of this; it's where I grew up. What it means is that anyone who can't drive is massively disadvantaged. But that's another discussion, really.

My point relating to Dalwhinnie was in response to scepticism about the scope to increase patronage at such stations. I had suggested that with a decent service these areas could provide useful access to the Highlands for those without cars and the example I gave was someone who lived in a city.

 

[BRX]

I most often go through Corrour on the sleeper and it's not unusual at all to see walkers and sometimes cyclists getting on/off there. In fact they are often the main users of the "day" coach.

 

[Altnabreac]

I'm very aware of this; it's where I grew up. What it means is that anyone who can't drive is massively disadvantaged. But that's another discussion, really.

My point relating to Dalwhinnie was in response to scepticism about the scope to increase patronage at such stations. I had suggested that with a decent service these areas could provide useful access to the Highlands for those without cars and the example I gave was someone who lived in a city.

Walkers and cyclists don't need a frequent service so much though. What they want is the early service to call all stations (which they do now and almost certainly will in future) and then for there to be 2/3 options coming home in the evening.

If you're off to climb a Munro you don't need / want an hourly all day service as evidenced by the popularity of Corrour with walkers despite a limited number of trains.

If anyone fancies a cycle ride there I can recommend Corrour to Tulloch via Fersit where you can admire the old platform still in place 82 years after closure of the station.

 

[BRX]

I'm a walker and a cyclist and I definitely appreciate a frequent service. It's true that the frequency is more important at the beginning/end of the day than the middle, but nonetheless, a good frequency makes the option of using the train look a lot more attractive and feasible. For cycling, a turn up and go (rather than reservations-compulsory) arrangement is much more desirable as it doesn't tie you to committing to a particular service. And if there's a turn-up-and-go arrangement then if there is only one service to choose from in the morning, you can't be sure that there will be space. If trains are hourly or better, then waiting for the next one doesn't scupper your whole day.

 

[jingsmonty]

I'm a walker and a cyclist and I definitely appreciate a frequent service. It's true that the frequency is more important at the beginning/end of the day than the middle, but nonetheless, a good frequency makes the option of using the train look a lot more attractive and feasible. For cycling, a turn up and go (rather than reservations-compulsory) arrangement is much more desirable as it doesn't tie you to committing to a particular service. And if there's a turn-up-and-go arrangement then if there is only one service to choose from in the morning, you can't be sure that there will be space. If trains are hourly or better, then waiting for the next one doesn't scupper your whole day.

There's no way the trains will stop everywhere - the cost in fuel alone would be astronomical! Maybe we'll see some through trains and maybe some Perth 'semi-fast' terminators?

Who knows, there has been absolutely nothing discussed, as far as I'm aware. Also, no staff have been taken on to run these extra services (for Drivers, you're talking approx. 1 year, after starting, to be qualified - not forgetting interviews/assessments prior to being offered the job).

Concerned that the plans for extra/longer crossing loops seem to have disappeared - really can't see how the extra trains will fit onto the HML (particularly if there's a desire to increase freight traffic as well). Particularly as HST can't run at the higher 'SP' differential speeds on the HML - there a quite a number of these.

Finally, I would expect to see work being carried out to extend the platform at Newtonmore & the Up platform at Dalwhinnie (not long enough) - the platforms at Dunkeld & Birnam (which can be a busy station, relatively speaking) desparately need raising - you paractically need a stepladder to board/alight from a train there!

 

[47271]

There's no way the trains will stop everywhere - the cost in fuel alone would be astronomical! Maybe we'll see some through trains and maybe some Perth 'semi-fast' terminators?

Who knows, there has been absolutely nothing discussed, as far as I'm aware. Also, no staff have been taken on to run these extra services (for Drivers, you're talking approx. 1 year, after starting, to be qualified - not forgetting interviews/assessments prior to being offered the job).

Concerned that the plans for extra/longer crossing loops seem to have disappeared - really can't see how the extra trains will fit onto the HML (particularly if there's a desire to increase freight traffic as well). Particularly as HST can't run at the higher 'SP' differential speeds on the HML - there a quite a number of these.

Finally, I would expect to see work being carried out to extend the platform at Newtonmore & the Up platform at Dalwhinnie (not long enough) - the platforms at Dunkeld & Birnam (which can be a busy station, relatively speaking) desparately need raising - you paractically need a stepladder to board/alight from a train there!

Dunkeld won't get touched until they decide what they're doing with the A9.

Worst possible case is that the station building gets marooned by the northbound carriageway running through the present car park.

Best possible case is that they build a short tunnel with the deck becoming an expanded car park, properly reconnecting the village with the station for the first time in over 40 years.

Alternative case is that it gets moved brick by brick to another location closer to the A822, and with access from that road.

Weird case is that the road never gets dualled through the village, they decide it's all too difficult, and in around 2024 the platforms finally get raised regardless.

I believe it's all in the midst of a expensive and lengthy consultation with the local community.

Miracles aside, my guess is that those platforms will stay exactly as they are for another five years at least.

 

[jingsmonty]

Dunkeld won't get touched until they decide what they're doing with the A9.

Worst possible case is that the station building gets marooned by the northbound carriageway running through the present car park.

Best possible case is that they build a short tunnel with the deck becoming an expanded car park, properly reconnecting the village with the station for the first time in over 40 years.

Alternative case is that it gets moved brick by brick to another location closer to the A822, and with access from that road.

Weird case is that the road never gets dualled through the village, they decide it's all too difficult, and in around 2024 the platforms finally get raised regardless.

I believe it's all in the midst of a expensive and lengthy consultation with the local community.

Miracles aside, my guess is that those platforms will stay exactly as they are for another five years at least.

I suspect you are right...haven't seen the draft proposals for the A9 at Dunkeld yet (believe the single carriageway south of Dunkeld - Luncarty to Pass of Birnam is the next bit to be dualled, the actual Dunkeld section, along with the A9 by Slochd will be difficult & one of the last stretches to be done, I think).

 

[Highland37]

I tracked the lightly loaded 170 I was on today from Aviemore to Kingussie.

99mph max with an average of 63mph.

How will a 5-car HST do relative to this?

 

[JohnR]

I tracked the lightly loaded 170 I was on today from Aviemore to Kingussie.

99mph max with an average of 63mph.

How will a 5-car HST do relative to this?

A 3-car class 170 has a power/weight ratio of 9.4 hp/tonne, while a 2+5 HST has one of 14.5 hp/tonne. I would imagine that it will be able to reach line speed much quicker, and be able to maintain it even on adverse gradients, which seem to cause issues for 170s.

 

[Kendalian]

What's the gradient southbound out of Dalwhinnie? 170 I was on yesterday (nearly full) seemed to struggle on the restart.

 

[matt]

1 in 80 most of the way to the summit.

 

[Highland37]

I was on a 170 south from Inverness to Aviemore today and it had to wait at Tomatin, planned, for a north bound service. Then, waiting on the service back to Inverness, the north bound train was delayed due to a rail inspection meaning the south bound had to wait at Aviemore.

How on earth is a more frequent service going to be provided with no additional passing loops?