Post pass out mistakes

[TurboMan]

This. As an ex-doo driver this applies equally to platform based dispatchers.

Also as an ex dispatcher, we never had any issues with drivers taking their time to respond because we simply didn't know what's happening inside the cab.

Personally, I always leave the cab door open until ready to depart, which means no interlock, or a BIL illuminated, which means no dispatch (assuming the cab doors are on the interlock circuit).

More generally, don't let your rule book knowledge slip. You never know if the signaller's going to call you up and tell you that single line working/pilot working/temporary block/emergency special working has been introduced. Could happen at any time.

 

[AverageJoe]

Again more fantastic advice, thank you.

I do actually open my cab door if we have a red platform signal so as to remove the risk of getting buzzed out on a red.

 

[185]

I do actually open my cab door if we have a red platform signal so as to remove the risk of getting buzzed out on a red.

Extremely good practice. This gets more fun when certain guards storms down asking you to shut the door, only then spotting the red beyond the front

 

[Stigy]

Could you clarify what you mean by these two points? (It reads like there wasn’t a vacancy in the link when you passed out so you had to take trains off people as and when you could, is this right?)

Sometimes it just takes a week or so you be put in the link properly. I shadowed my line and did the work of the driver who was booked the jobs in that link (because it was still a vacant line until rosters put me in it)

 

[godfreycomplex]

From the signalling side (and to reiterate those above)

Please ring us if there’s anything we can help you with. We’re not ogres and we won’t bite your head off. I’ve dealt with several incidents now that could have been very easily averted if the driver had done this, and it’s a horrible feeling on both sides. If you need more time, clarification or just want us to go slower, I know it’s not easy, but just bite the bullet and say so.

Also don’t worry too much about delay minutes. They aren’t real. The things that can happen if you overfixate on them are very real.

 

[357]

From the signalling side (and to reiterate those above)

Please ring us if there’s anything we can help you with. We’re not ogres and we won’t bite your head off. I’ve dealt with several incidents now that could have been very easily averted if the driver had done this, and it’s a horrible feeling on both sides. If you need more time, clarification or just want us to go slower, I know it’s not easy, but just bite the bullet and say so.

Also don’t worry too much about delay minutes. They aren’t real. The things that can happen if you overfixate on them are very real.

This is even the case for the signalling desks that have a bad reputation, to add.

The siggy might talk to you like you're an idiot, but all signallers are well aware of what can happen if a driver doesn't understand what's being asked of them and wings it (there is a RED video about an unauthorized wrong direction move somewhere).

Generally I've had no problem with signallers, even the specific ones that other drivers seem to have constant issues with. Speak to them like a human and not as "god" or worse "the enemy" and you'll get on fine with 99% of them.

 

[Horizon22]

This has been a really good thread with great advice, thanks to all the drivers who have offered assistance.

All aspects of the railway are working together to keep trains running, even if they appear to have different priorities at times. Remember everyone involved in operations are humans on the other end of a radio / phone. People are happy to help and would rather not be investigating an incident as opposed to just explaining some minutes of delay.

I do hope all goes well - would say "Good luck" but luck shouldn't come into it and you've got the right mentality asking these sort of questions.

 

[LoogaBarooga]

Aye this thread has been really handy. I'm going through driver training just now so it's really helpful to get proper insight from both drivers and signallers.

 

[AverageJoe]

Yes thank you all that have and continue to offer excellent advice.

I will refer to this thread every now and then to make sure I’m still applying these good ideas when I’ve passed out.

 

[CC 72100]

So a couple of thoughts from me:

60/40/20* (or your TOCs equivalent) is as safe as houses. Around a year in, your confidence will be up, sticking with this approach to all signals will basically never let you down. Even then, if in doubt, take (an extra) 10 out.

Don't be afraid to use risk triggered commentary in an empty cab. TPWS on bay platforms was one that I often came a little too close for comfort with - its very easy to zone in on the buffers and forget the OSS risk. As a result I always (even almost a decade later) vocalise "15 at the platform, 8 for TPWS". I would, however, caution against a whole route commentary as it waters down the value of RTC - I personally only vocalise risks (eg: double yellow, yellow, red as I cancel the magnet and bay platforms).

Distraction will happen - it might not even be anything other than the job distracting you (eg: pass comms, Guard calling you etc), don't beat yourself up if you make a little slip - build in enough resilience to your driving style to catch an error before it becomes serious. If your minder hasn't given you check speeds for stations, build these in - so you'll have a shut off point, brake point and one (or more) check speeds - it gives you a number of opportunities to get back on your brake curve if anything goes wrong.

And if it does go wrong (big or small), we've ALL been there. Hold your hands up, be honest about where you went wrong, learn from the experience and don't let it crush your confidence. Despite what some in the mess room might say, I guarantee there's not a single driver than hasn't done something wrong at some point in their career, and there'll be a lot more who've had incidents than will admit it - we're all human, it happens.

* 60/40/20 is 60 at the double yellow, 40 at the single, 20 at the magnet for the red. Differs between operators depending on speed you're operating at and braking capabilities of traction - just incase that's a new one for you.

I think this is a really good post.

Also, so refreshing to see genuine good natured sharing of knowledge and experiences in this thread. Absolutely agree that anybody who is asking for tips to keep on the 'straight on narrow' is the right attitude to begin with.

Please please please approach your driver manager if you've got any questions. Any good DM will not mind. They will not tell you you ought to know it, they will appreciate you thinking about your competence and doing thr necessary to keep it up there.

Definitely worth remembering that you are not infallible. There will be days and trips where it won't feel as 'smooth' as others and you probably can't put a finger on it why. A scruffy stop or coming down for a speed where you've not done it in the usual 'one shot' that you achieve. Don't worry about or dwell on it. That's not important. If you stopped where you should and stayed the right side of the red, now that is thr important bit.

OP) Feel free to send a private message if you so wish.

 

[skyhigh]

Please ring us if there’s anything we can help you with. We’re not ogres and we won’t bite your head off.

Just to add, don't let a bad experience put you off asking if you're unsure about something. In our local instructions for leaving a particular depot we are required to phone the signaller and check something in a specific circumstance. The first time I had to do this I got a... robust response... from the signaller who essentially told me I was wasting their time and put the phone down on me without providing confirmation. They were even more grumpy when I phoned back to actually get the verbal confirmation! At the same time if I hadn't phoned and been involved in an incident it would have entirely been my fault.

Same goes for signaller/control/anyone - always ask if you are unsure and if you get a grumpy response don't let it put you off the next time. If you speak to someone and you are still not 100% don't be afraid to ask for clarification. Basically you don't know what the person on the other end of the phone is dealing with or if they're having a bad day. Just do what you need to do in a professional way and you'll be fine.

 

[bb21]

Definitely worth remembering that you are not infallible. There will be days and trips where it won't feel as 'smooth' as others and you probably can't put a finger on it why. A scruffy stop or coming down for a speed where you've not done it in the usual 'one shot' that you achieve. Don't worry about or dwell on it. That's not important. If you stopped where you should and stayed the right side of the red, now that is thr important bit.

That is probably one of the least appreciated aspects for many new drivers, many of whom tie themselves into a bit of a knot when a mistake happens. Better to accept that you will make mistakes from the start as no one is perfect, then you won't start panicking if it does happen.

Most importantly, I think someone had mentioned this upthread, report it and own up to it if you do. DMs are all human and will support you if you are open and honest (plus your union). There is a wealth of onboard data available now (plus others) you never know when you will be found out if you try and cover something up, then it will become a serious matter. If I told you how many drivers I have uncovered telling fibs over the course of a year you will probably be shocked, and my guys don't even investigate that many to start with. Only last week I had to report a driver for completely missing his AWS, resetting without telling anyone, then telling the guard there was a (non-existent) door fault which caused the UBA. They wouldn't have been in trouble had they owned up to it, but they are now. If some older heads at the depot are telling you you can get away with such and such, ignore them - it isn't worth jeopardising your career over that.

 

[387star]

Prepare for the unexpected
One night the station lights weren't working at Salfords. It took a few seconds to register what was wrong as I could see the red GPLs which i knew were beyond the station! and it messed up my usual braking point. Luckily I managed to stop fine.

Make sure you fully understand not to calls or special stop orders as I had a very poorly written one at Blackfriars

Don't play around with the GSMR radio before a speed reduction etc

 

[Crazyb]

As someone else said, cab doors, if they work off the interlock....I've walked the length of the platform and gone bollxcks and our trains are quite long, also leaving your key in the desk!!!!....If you drive super dupa trains with just one power and brake handle, make sure you don't knock it into emergency when closing the desk up. Have 2 lots of keys, that is a control key and a door key.....Drivers do lock themselves out, including myself!!!!

Pen and Paper, if working under the signalman's instructions....I never used to do this, but after nearly 38 odd years driving, and maybe old age!!!!!! I write down what is required and its more easier to repeat back.
Ive had some quite long instructions, so the above is quite good, plus some siggis can talk like if they are ATC, so don't be frighten to ask them to repeat back.

 

[King Lazy]

When I first passed out I occasionally wasn’t disciplined enough at getting to bed and was fatigued next day (nothing major but even an extra hour of tv can be bad) I quickly found ensuring I got a good nights sleep made a world of difference to my work.

Likewise getting to work relaxed is a big thing. Even thought I was never late I give myself 15mins extra now than I used to and I find starting the day relaxed seems to make things run smoothly.
Starting stressed seems to make everything go wrong, faults, late running, signalling. It’s as though you make your own reality!

I’m a huge fan of RTC but one thing I’d caution on is ensuring your style works for you and you realise any limitations of it.

I started driving on mostly rural lines with semaphores or 2-aspect lights and would just call caution or clear at distant signals.
When I moved into 4-aspect territory I realised this wasn’t enough. I needed to actually vocalise the aspect as 1 or 2 yellows or 1 flashing or 2 flashing yellows as all these cautionary aspects need a different reaction.

Also my routes now have many more wrong route opportunities so I added calling the route to my RTC.

Consistency is key to good driving but again you have to guard against the time you might forget something. For example at stations where you enter on a yellow with the red out of sight. The DRA is great until the time something distracts you and you don’t set it.

I’m a big fan of checking the sunflower before powering up in risky areas but again, things like magnets for ESRs/TSRs mean there
are limitations to using it.

Good luck. I wish you a long and successful career!

 

[357]

occasionally wasn’t disciplined enough at getting to bed and was fatigued next day

A can or bottle of energy drink in your bag for those situations has been a godsend for me. Don't get addicted to them though!

 

[12LDA28C]

Personally, I always leave the cab door open until ready to depart, which means no interlock, or a BIL illuminated, which means no dispatch (assuming the cab doors are on the interlock circuit).

Good advice but the downside of this is that it leaves you open to passengers coming up and asking you questions which can cause distraction, and also at some locations I believe the dispatchers are told not to TRTS if the driver's cab door is still open which will cause you some delays if you're not aware of that policy if it applies to any station you're dispatched from.

Don't be afraid to be firm with anyone who is causing you a distraction. Passengers often innocently come up to you to ask a question but if you need to concentrate on your station duties then don't be afraid to ignore them or direct them elsewhere to get the information they need. Your only concern is the safe dispatch of your train and nothing should get in the way of that. If you've become distracted, take a few seconds to compose yourself and refocus, recheck the signal and so on.

 

[357]

Following on from something that happened this morning...

If you make a mistake, if you have an incident, do not immediately start arguing with management about it.

There are people who have been driving for 40+ years who make mistakes, this person has been driving for two years and had three incidents. Starting an argument every time and not owning up to his own mistakes is slowly leading him towards a either a P45 or a return to the depot.

 

[S-Car-Go]

All of the above is great advice. I wanted to add a couple of things not mentioned yet.
When there has been strike action, and management were temporarily covering signallers, guards, and other roles, be aware it has been known they may be more prone to error. Question it if it doesn't feel right.
Same sort of thing when your DTCM/TOC Control/Fleet Maintenance asks you to do something and it doesn't make sense or feel right, question it. If it means cancelling a service or running it empty back to a depot to be rectified, so be it.

 

[FNG]

Not sure that this has been touched on yet but don’t sit there basking in your own glory if you do something well. An example could be that you get wrongly routed (sorry signallers) but see what’s happened and challenge before accepting. Once sorted out there is a danger that you subsequently have an operational incident because you’ve inadvertently become distracted and let your concentration levels slip while you are giving yourself a prolonged pat on the back. The priority remains to complete the journey safely, you can tell yourself (and anyone who wants to listen) how brilliant you are once you’ve reached your destination.

Same if you make a mistake that particularly annoys you but doesn’t result in an incident, there’s a time and a place to give yourself a proper dressing down. I personally go for the end of my shift, chuck a few choice words/expletives at myself, take the learning points on board and move on.

Good luck

 

[Sly Old Fox]

Just concentrate and think. It’s not rocket science.

Good luck doing 60 at a yellow signal when you come around the corner at 125 and it’s yellow out of the blue.

 

[800 Driver]

Hi all I’m due my pass out fairly soon and although I’ve been well trained there is of course some apprehension about being out there alone for the first time.

So this is a question for drivers only really.

From your experience what are the common mistakes I should watch out for as a new driver?

What would you do differently with the knowledge you have now?

And any advice you can pass on that may assist me?

Thanks all, and if I can ask that only those with genuine driving experience reply rather than a list of “I think” replies. (No offence intended)

Take your time. Ask your colleagues any questions you have no matter how stupid you think they might be, shunt moves, signal routings, traction questions, ask, ask, ask. If you can't remember your last signal at any point look at the sunflower and if it's yellow whack the brake in. If something almost goes wrong, think of a process you can put in place to stop that happening again. If something goes wrong take a minute to think about what to do.

 

[officewalla]

Yes. If it's anything like my TOC, when you pass out you initially go into a supernumerary link with no booked work. When you're new it's much better to take work off experienced drivers and let them sit spare rather than sitting spare yourself.

Don't expect the booked driver to give it up though. Some will as they love being spare, others will not as they like doing what they get paid to do. My depot is a mixture of both. I am in the latter group and hate being spare.

As a previous poster has said, the fact you are conscious of this rather than just thinking “I’m qualified now” is a great first sign. Remaining open to learning is important, as you’ll be continually picking up new things for a long time after losing the ‘trainee’ title, and even beyond any year or two ‘post qualified’ label.

From my own experience, and watching others, the six month mark seems to be a key point for some drivers. At that point you start to feel settled, confidence is high, and complacency can start to creep in. I’ve seen many a first incident happen in that 6-12 month window.

You’ve presumably also just coming to the end of route learning. Leaf fall is now just a month or two away, so having got comfortable over the summer, that is another thing you have to bear in mind in the short term. The braking points you’ve perhaps just been assessed on having learnt during route learning will more than likely need adjusting soon.

Yes indeed. I had just passed 100 hours when I attempted to open the doors on the wrong side. was saved by the safety system (PIBS). Reported the incident, had a manager's chat, no annotation to my licence as the doors were not opened. Lesson learned and new strategy developed to mitigate for the future.

 

[Jobi-wan]

I came close to having a spad a couple of times within 6 months of passing out and it taught me a valuable lesson both times. The first time I allowed myself to become distracted by looking at my diagram to see what I was working back, and the second time I had become complacent that "that signal is always off when you get round the corner". First one was very close, second one I stopped a way off the signal but still crapped myself. You'll become more and more confident the more turns you do, but don't become over-confident. Stay well within your comfort zone and don't take risks.

Its been mentioned here by a signaller, but if you aren't sure, give the box a call. Yeah you might look like a **** for a few minutes but then it's forgotten and you may have avoided an incident. They're all humans on the other end of that GSMR and they're all doing a job. They want to go home, as much as you do, without thinking "could I have avoided that incident somehow?"

That aside...
I don't mean to sound patronising in any way, shape or form and I hope you take this in the way it is intended, but you should be proud of yourself for getting to this point. Think of all the hard work you've just gone through. You're part of a fairly exclusive club now. Go easy, never rush, and remember it's not a job it's a career, and one you can lose very easily.

Good luck and take care!

 

[16.19]

Hi all I’m due my pass out fairly soon and although I’ve been well trained there is of course some apprehension about being out there alone for the first time.

So this is a question for drivers only really.

From your experience what are the common mistakes I should watch out for as a new driver?

What would you do differently with the knowledge you have now?

And any advice you can pass on that may assist me?

Thanks all, and if I can ask that only those with genuine driving experience reply rather than a list of “I think” replies. (No offence intended)

Always drive using the basic driving principles and don’t differ from them;

Drive to your permissible speeds
Read and react to cautionary aspects (straight away)
Stop at the booked stations between those signals (by always reading your docket at each stop)
Drive defensively when weather conditions dictate so.
Utilise your DRA correctly.
Never rush.

 

[TreacleMiller]

I'm probably 6/10 months ahead of you.

I did more in my first few driving turns than I did in 6 months of handling with my trainer. It's just how it went.

Take your time, drive as you have been.

Check your routes and signals and try not not experiment too much. Get your first drives under your belt and dont be scared to have your route maps to hand. That being said use them when safe to do so.

Dont be scared to stop and challenge something your unsure of movement wise.

Dont let your control ask things of you that you would not be confident doing - ie unusual shunts within station limits.

You WILL be way more fatigued for your first few drives than you have been, so try not to plan anything between shifts.

Get a good chunk of driving done before taking leave.

Dont be afraid to use the brakes. A slightly sharp brake might stand out on a download but a spad will stand out anywhere.

 

[Sly Old Fox]

“If you can’t remember your last signal check the sunflower”. How are you forgetting what signal you’ve just passed? It’s a maximum of 60 seconds ago in the vast majority of cases. Just pay attention.

 

[TurboMan]

“If you can’t remember your last signal check the sunflower”. How are you forgetting what signal you’ve just passed? It’s a maximum of 60 seconds ago in the vast majority of cases. Just pay attention.

So if drivers just pay attention, we wouldn't need AWS? And, by the same argument, we could do away with TPWS, ATP, ETCS and any other train protection systems too? Great idea!

 

[Sly Old Fox]

So if drivers just pay attention, we wouldn't need AWS? And, by the same argument, we could do away with TPWS, ATP, ETCS and any other train protection systems too? Great idea!

Well, theoretically, no. But I’m not suggesting getting ready of any safety systems. Just that a train driver should be capable of remembering a colour they saw fewer than 60 seconds previously.

 

[skyhigh]

“If you can’t remember your last signal check the sunflower”. How are you forgetting what signal you’ve just passed? It’s a maximum of 60 seconds ago in the vast majority of cases. Just pay attention.

Easily said.

But in practice I can think of a few examples where you pass a signal, stop at a station and the next signal is out of sight round a corner. Add in a passenger alarm going off, a TCMS fault flashing up in your face, distractions at the station or the signaller contacting you via GSMR and it's all too easy to forget what your last signal was. Particularly if it's your last trip on a 10 hour job.

Those are the situations where a glance at the AWS before setting off from the station could potentially save you from a SPAD.