Posted a Court Summons this morning - what do I do?

[Bill530]

Hi.

In November 2018. I was travelling from Kirkham to Preston in the afternoon to which I was then going to Manchester for an afternoon exam at University. I was running late from Kirkham and in previous experiences I had been able to purchase a ticket when getting off the train and walking to where to railway staff are stopped. I had no ticket and offered to purchase one immediatly. I was then told he was going to give me a fixed penalty notice and i asked him to please be quick as my connecting train was leaving in a minute and i could see it pull up at the far platform on the other side of the station (I told him I had an exam) After I told him this he told me 'i can miss my train now' and he seemed to be taking pleasure out of it so i asked him if he really needed to be a jobsworth and he intentionally took so long that i missed my train much to my frustration. I then paid for a return to Manchester, luckily there was a train 15 minutes later so i was able to make it on time.

I recieved a letter asking for my side of the story a few days after the incident to which while i was not happy about but I said i would pay the penalty notice as I was aware how Northen Rail like to use the threat of prosecution to make you pay a much higher fee so i wanted the situation to have a line drawn through it. I never heard back from Northern and I assumed they must have dropped the fine or something. On my bank statements I have proof of paying the ticket when asked and a proof of payment to the post office where i posted the letter. I am unsure where in my home the proof of postage is but I am certain I still have it.

I was in shock this morning when a letter from the magistraites court came trough my door saying they were summoning me to court for an unpaid ticket but also for using threatening behaviour. The ticket officer has added comments that I know that I didn't say. I wanted to plead guilty as it would just result in me paying a lower fine but then after reading online I have read I can get a criminal record if I get convicted. I simply cannot afford for this to happen. I am due to finish University and will be applying for jobs and I also want to go travelling over summer.
Is there any way I can settle the matter the matter going to court if i contact Northern and does anybody have any advice they would be kind enough to offer me?.

Thankyou in Advance

 

[JN114]

What exactly are you being prosecuted for? What legislation is being used? It will say on the letter. Then members here will be able to make a better judgement on how best to advise you. Not all offences carry a criminal record - pleading guilty may be the best option but without more detail that advice can't be proffered.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Simply replying to their letter doesn’t mean they won’t prosecute. They use your reply to help decide whether they should prosecute and if what you have written here is a true account of what you wrote how can you possibly be shocked they are prosecuting?

So far your attitude has resulted in an almost guaranteed Penalty Fare or out of court offer being replaced with a prosecution for fare evasion and threatening behaviour so, whatever others suggest is your best course of action, the most important thing is you are going to have to change it in any future dealings with the company if you want a reasonable outcome.

 

[najaB]

Something doesn't seem right here - I don't understand how you both paid for a ticket and got a penalty fare/fixed notice.

 

[Bill530]

Something doesn't seem right here - I don't understand how you both paid for a ticket and got a penalty fare/fixed notice.

It was a two legged journey so i had to pay for it if i wanted to continue otherwise I would be stuck at Preston

 

[Bill530]

Simply replying to their letter doesn’t mean they won’t prosecute. They use your reply to help decide whether they should prosecute and if what you have written here is a true account of what you wrote how can you possibly be shocked they are prosecuting?

So far your attitude has resulted in an almost guaranteed Penalty Fare or out of court offer being replaced with a prosecution for fare evasion and threatening behaviour so, whatever others suggest is your best course of action, the most important thing is you are going to have to change it in any future dealings with the company if you want a reasonable outcome.

Hi, they said in the summoning letter that I had failed to respond to their reasonable request. So I imagine they thought I was trying to avoid the letter they originally sent me a couple of days after the incident happened.

 

[Bill530]

What exactly are you being prosecuted for? What legislation is being used? It will say on the letter. Then members here will be able to make a better judgement on how best to advise you. Not all offences carry a criminal record - pleading guilty may be the best option but without more detail that advice can't be proffered.

Hi thankyou for the response. On the letter it says the charges are

1) Did use abusive or offensive language
2)Entered a train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket to entitle travel

 

[Any_Permitted]

Hi thankyou for the response. On the letter it says the charges are

1) Did use abusive or offensive language
2)Entered a train for the purpose of travelling without a valid ticket to entitle travel

These are both Railway Byelaw offences, namely 6(1) and 18(1) respectively:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf

6(1) No person shall use any threatening, abusive, obscene or offensive language on the railway.

18(1) In any area not designated as a compulsory ticket area, no person shall enter any train for the purpose of travelling on the railway unless he has with him a valid ticket entitling him to travel.

The good news is that Byelaw offences are non-recordable offences. This means that the offence is spent instantly so you will not have to declare it when applying to most jobs. Some jobs that require very strict security clearance may require you to declare spent convictions, but these jobs are rare.

You will almost certainly be found guilty of the Byelaw 18(1) offence as you didn’t purchase a ticket before boarding when ticket issuing facilities were available. I’m pretty sure you’ll be found guilty of the abusive language one too (but I wasn’t there so can’t say for certain).

Pleading guilty, as you said in your original post, does result in lower fines so you are sensible to do this. However it is not too late for an out of court settlement and I strongly urge you to contact Northern and seek one. Settlements have been agreed upon on the day of the trial before. Based on reading posts on this forum, Northern seem one of the keener train operating companies to settle.

To summarise, it is definitely worth you trying to settle and it is not too late to do so at all. If it goes to court though, do relax: you will not be getting a criminal record and you will not have to declare the conviction for the vast majority of graduate jobs. Hope this helps.

 

[Bill530]

These are both Railway Byelaw offences, namely 6(1) and 18(1) respectively:

https://assets.publishing.service.g...attachment_data/file/4202/railway-byelaws.pdf


The good news is that Byelaw offences are non-recordable offences. This means that the offence is spent instantly so you will not have to declare it when applying to most jobs. Some jobs that require very strict security clearance may require you to declare spent convictions, but these jobs are rare.

You will almost certainly be found guilty of the Byelaw 18(1) offence as you didn’t purchase a ticket before boarding when ticket issuing facilities were available. I’m pretty sure you’ll be found guilty of the abusive language one too (but I wasn’t there so can’t say for certain).

Pleading guilty, as you said in your original post, does result in lower fines so you are sensible to do this. However it is not too late for an out of court settlement and I strongly urge you to contact Northern and seek one. Settlements have been agreed upon on the day of the trial before. Based on reading posts on this forum, Northern seem one of the keener train operating companies to settle.

To summarise, it is definitely worth you trying to settle and it is not too late to do so at all. If it goes to court though, do relax: you will not be getting a criminal record and you will not have to declare the conviction for the vast majority of graduate jobs. Hope this helps.

Thanks so much for the help and guidance. What would be the bestway to contact them? Over the telephone or via the customer services email?

 

[JN114]

Any written form of written communication - so email or letter - with proof of sending kept.

 

[30907]

Did you actually pay the penalty fare? Your account is unclear.

 

[najaB]

It was a two legged journey so i had to pay for it if i wanted to continue otherwise I would be stuck at Preston

Easily said in hindsight, but it's unfortunate that you didn't pay the little bit extra and get a ticket that covered your entire journey.

 

[Haywain]

Easily said in hindsight, but it's unfortunate that you didn't pay the little bit extra and get a ticket that covered your entire journey.

It isn't clear what the OP purchased, if the return journey was through to Kirkham a return ticket from Kirkham would have been the best thing to buy. If that wasn't the case was the journey from Preston to Kirkham covered by any ticket?

 

[reb0118]

It seems to be that the OP has been reported for Kirkham to Preston only. He was allowed to purchase a ticket for his onward journey from Preston. Did he receive any paperwork for the Kirkham/Preston journey either in person or by post, and if so did he act on it?

 

[najaB]

It seems to be that the OP has been reported for Kirkham to Preston only. He was allowed to purchase a ticket for his onward journey from Preston. Did he receive any paperwork for the Kirkham/Preston journey either in person or by post, and if so did he act on it?

Another question, what ticket was purchased for the onward journey.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Hi, they said in the summoning letter that I had failed to respond to their reasonable request. So I imagine they thought I was trying to avoid the letter they originally sent me a couple of days after the incident happened.

To me that isn't proof they didn't receive your letter. They gave you the opportunity to give your side of events and, by your own admission, instead of apologising and providing mitigation you just replied with an angry rant and demands.

 

[najaB]

They gave you the opportunity to give your side of events and, by your own admission, instead of apologising and providing mitigation you just replied with an angry rant and demands.

It's not clear to me what actually went into the letter as opposed to what was post-fact editorialising.

 

[Bertie the bus]

I thought in these threads we were supposed to take the OP at their word. The contents of the letter are clearly stated.

I recieved a letter asking for my side of the story a few days after the incident to which while i was not happy about but I said i would pay the penalty notice as I was aware how Northen Rail like to use the threat of prosecution to make you pay a much higher fee so i wanted the situation to have a line drawn through it.

 

[najaB]

I thought in these threads we were supposed to take the OP at their word. The contents of the letter are clearly stated.

I'm not 100% how much of that was what was actually written vs commentary on why they agreed to pay.

 

[Haywain]

What's important here is that agreeing to pay the fixed penalty does not, in itself, prevent the TOC moving to prosecution. It would appear that in this case they have seen no reason not to prosecute.

 

[Bill530]

Easily said in hindsight, but it's unfortunate that you didn't pay the little bit extra and get a ticket that covered your entire journey.

I paid for a return from Kirkham to Manchester after the penalty fare was issued. I expected that Northern Rail were asking for the penalty notice to be paid by me however it actually states they want £5.30 for a ticket from Kirkham to Preston which technically has already been paid for despite being after the time that the fixed penalty notice was issued (as its cost is included in the return ticket that I purchased).

I am dyslexic and find typing long paragraphs difficult without a spellcheck so i apologise for any errors in explaining the situation

 

[najaB]

I am dyslexic and find typing long paragraphs difficult without a spellcheck so i apologise for any errors in explaining the situation

Understood. It's all been quite clear.

I paid for a return from Kirkham to Manchester after the penalty fare was issued.

Where did you pay for it - at the ticket office/machine or from the member of staff who reported you?

 

[Bill530]

Understood. It's all been quite clear.

Where did you pay for it - at the ticket office/machine or from the member of staff who reported you?

He sent me to go to another member of staff who was stood nearby to take payment with a card machine.

 

[najaB]

He sent me to go to another member of staff who was stood nearby to take payment with a card machine.

It's unfortunate that this has got as far as a court summons being issued because I don't think that Northern have a case here - the same operative has both reported you for potential prosecution and instructed you to pay for your travel from Kirkby to Preston. It has to be one or the other.

 

[Haywain]

instructed you to pay for your travel from Kirkby to Preston.

I'm not sure that's obvious - the OP was instructed to pay for their onward journey, but not necessarily the bit they had just made.

 

[najaB]

I'm not sure that's obvious - the OP was instructed to pay for their onward journey, but not necessarily the bit they had just made.

I suppose it does depend on exactly what conversation was had.

 

[js1000]

It's unfortunate that this has got as far as a court summons being issued because I don't think that Northern have a case here - the same operative has both reported you for potential prosecution and instructed you to pay for your travel from Kirkby to Preston. It has to be one or the other.

I'm am veering towards the same opinion here. Firstly, the OP was wrong to board without a ticket.

But if the OP paid for a return between Kirkham and Manchester at Preston (and a penalty fare as well?!?) then surely there is a strong argument that the case is closed?

 

[Haywain]

I'm am veering towards the same opinion here. Firstly, the OP was wrong to board without a ticket.

But if the OP paid for a return between Kirkham and Manchester at Preston (and a penalty fare as well?!?) then surely there is a strong argument that the case is closed?

Based on post #7 in this thread, it is difficult to see hoe the OP would defend the charge of entering a train without a valid ticket. And then there's the abusive language bit that may well discourage the TOC from following a different course of action.

 

[js1000]

Based on post #7 in this thread, it is difficult to see hoe the OP would defend the charge of entering a train without a valid ticket. And then there's the abusive language bit that may well discourage the TOC from following a different course of action.

Hmm... it's really not clear what the OP has been charged for by the RPI/Northern. From what I can gander they've been handed a 'fixed penalty notice'? But this issued only after someone's details have been taken by an RPI. I am therefore assuming the OP was not issued with any fine at the station. An RPI took their details and the OP was told they would get a letter explaining the course of action. At the same time, he was asked to purchase a ticket to cover the journey he made from Kirkham & Wesham and was going to make onto Manchester.

If the employee who stops you does not issue a notice but takes your details for an incident report we will consider that report and then write to you. If we are proceeding with the incident we will offer to deal with the matter in one of the following ways. Either, a letter requesting the payment of the outstanding fare; a letter requesting an explanation or a fixed penalty. In the case of a fixed penalty you must respond within 14 days of our letter. If you do not reply within the appropriate timescale the case will be referred for prosecution.

https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/l...nalty-faqs/822-penalties-appeals-and-payments

The OP has replied months ago and believed the case was closed. It may seem odd not hearing anything back for 4 months but most TOC revenue departments often have a long backlog and prioritise cases based on the greatest chance of success in terms of passengers paying up either by their own accord or through the magistrates. Although it is very common for fines or court summons to be issued close to the 6 month limitation period (6 months after the incident occurred) as this is the cut-off point for taking any suspected fare evader to magistrates.

And yes I always advise people to be wary about what they say to RPIs. Even "no comment" or a shrug of the shoulder would suffice in many cases. Lying or abusing someone is just digging yourself a hole for yourself when you could be a lot smarter about the situation. RPIs tend to respect the passengers who are either charming and honest, or simply walking away if the passenger is brave enough - imagine being lied to or abused most days? It is the worst course of action to take.

 

[Bill530]

Does anyone know how long they usually take to respond to emails?

On Monday they said they'd investigate and be in touch shortly but I am yet to hear back.

Thanks