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Potential 08 Replacement

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LE Greys

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Not sure if there's been a thread on this yet. I only found out about it from the Railway Magazine. Apparently, Hunslet have developed a new shunter (http://www.hunsletengine.com/news_new_loco.php). This looks like a perfect replacement for the Class 08, built when BR was still turning out 9Fs. It uses a lot less fuel, is slightly more powerful and has about the same tractive effort. Should we expect to see a few hundred of them at yards up and down the country soon?

Apologies if I'm behind the times here.
 
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ainsworth74

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According to wiki in 2008 there were one hundred 08s in service (taken that info from WNXX apparently). So I would have thought that there would be a need for around a 100 replacements at most.
 

Dai.

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Design wise I like the look of the locomotives and as LE Greys has said in his post it uses less fuel, so IMO good all round :D
 

142094

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They've been using 60s as super shunters in a few places recently, might make more sense to use them instead of buying new.
 

Pumbaa

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With Hammond wanting everyone to 'sweat the assets', I highly doubt anything will come of them!
 

Vulcan

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I can't see anyone but industry investing in these, The age of dedicated shunting engines on the mainline is dissapearing fast, now that most freight travels in block trains, the 08s remaining can struggle on for what little work they have left to do.

Also, did the designer only have a ruler when he designed this? looks worse then a 70 if you ask me. And it'll never be a real Hunslet in my eyes.
 

9K43

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Class 08 or 350's are one of the best engines for shunting.
I have spent many hours at Stourton Freightliner in BR days with these engines.
They are very strong pullers going either way.
They can push /pull 38 loaded HAA without sneezing one bit.
The only problem is that in winter they are a bit cold.
On the front the shunter can ride on the footsteps, there is even a place for your shunt pole.
EWS/DB got rid of the 350 at Healey Mills and made folk shunt with a big engine.
We had regular jobs for 350's such as 9K43 at HM and K65 off Holbeck shed to shunt in and around Leeds.
When going through Leeds City Station it was a rough ride and sea sick tablets could be needed.
THe 350 was one engine where sleep was next to impossible.
 

Bittern

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It's a very American looking loco. At least the 08s are pretty (and have character about them)!
 

sprinterguy

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Good to see that there is a “new breed” of industrial shunters: I’ve got a bit of a thing for industrials, always been keen on the 1960s Andrew Barclay 0-4-0 and 0-6-0 types and Ruston 0-4-0 locos. If it looks “American” to some eyes I suppose it’s because of the long nose and deep bufferbeam, which have always been a feature of industrial shunter designs in various forms.

And the design will only ever be an industrial type; as others have said above, there isn’t a requirement to replace the 08s, as the sort of work they were designed to do is largely disappearing: Most freight workings are trainload block workings that only require splitting and vehicles swapped/added very occasionally, and where pilot locos are required at freight terminals, it is now regular practice to use a main line loco from a previous working, or a dedicated “super shunter”.

The only need I can see for new shunting locomotives on the national network is at wagon repair depots, permanent way depots, and the few major marshalling yards that act as starting and terminating points for freight trains, as many marshalling yards now act principally as staging points for ready formed block trains. This only accounts for a handful of locos: For the time being, there are plenty of inactive 08s that can be cannibalised for parts to keep the few remaining active ones going.
 

jopsuk

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Beyond that, there must only be a handful of shunters in use by passnger TOCs at their depots- they're pretty much un-needed for DMUs, and most of the time EMUs can be shunted by other units if needed. i know East Coast have an 08 at Bounds Green for moving carriage rakes around without the 91s- do NXEA have one at Crown Point for the same task? I'd guess shunting of sleeper carriages just uses the normal locos. FCC have one as well I think?
 

LE Greys

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Beyond that, there must only be a handful of shunters in use by passnger TOCs at their depots- they're pretty much un-needed for DMUs, and most of the time EMUs can be shunted by other units if needed. i know East Coast have an 08 at Bounds Green for moving carriage rakes around without the 91s- do NXEA have one at Crown Point for the same task? I'd guess shunting of sleeper carriages just uses the normal locos. FCC have one as well I think?

The sleeper stock at Aberdeen generally tends to be shunted by whatever brought the train in. This is usually a 67, which I always think is a slightly bizarre sight. At Hornsey, FCC actually use an 03 called Clive.
 

sprinterguy

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First Capital Connect have their class 03 "CLIVE" at Hornsey (And a hired in 08). Scotrail have a dedicated class 08 painted in Caledonian Sleeper livery at Inverness for shunting the Caledonian Sleeper stock around. London Midland have an 08 at Soho depot where the 323s are maintained, and an 08 in London Midland colours at Tyseley. Grand Central have one 08 (painted in Northern colours) at Heaton.

Most of the Intercity operators have a few 08s each: FGW have a few at the likes of Old Oak Common, Laira and Penzance, EMT have at least two at Derby, East Coast have two at Craigentinny and others at Bounds Green (EC lease their shunters from Wabtec Rail), Alstom operate shunters for Virgin West Coast at Longsight, Wembley and Edge Hill.

So there are in all fairness quite a few 08s employed with passenger operators, but I think in the future, with a largely multiple unit operated railway, battery electric shunters will find favour with the passenger TOCs, as quite a few operators already make use of.
 
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Bittern

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EC have a couple of 08s in use at Craigentinny I believe there is also some in use at Inverness but I don't know which company uses them.
 

sprinterguy

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EC have a couple of 08s in use at Craigentinny I believe there is also some in use at Inverness but I don't know which company uses them.

^^^As mentioned above: ^^^
Scotrail use two 08s at Inverness, one in Caledonian Sleeper purple livery, for shunting Caledonian Sleeper carriages. They are owned by RT Rail and leased to First Scotrail. I think any freight that makes it to Inverness is dealt with by the train engine as opposed to either of those two 08s.
 

Peter Sarf

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If there is to be a replacement shunter it needs to have a higher top speed so that they dont need to be taken by road to/from more distant locations when they need works attention. The 09s had a higher top speed for this purpose and extra 09/1s were converted from 08s to this end. A small loco with bogies makes more sense (like a Class 17 "clayton"). Could be used for light jobs on the main line as well. I wonder if we will ever go back to trip working !.

But as already mentioned by others there is a diminishing need for shunters and a surplus of larger locos anyway. Not fuel efficient but then how many hours per day is a typical shunter getting used nowadys - so the engine is off most of the time. Better to have something that can be kept warm doing other duties in between.

I have to say one of my memories of railway yards are 08s dotted about with their engines running all day. Body panels/doors clattering away to the vibration of the engine. There were almost a thousand 08s then.
 
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sprinterguy

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In the past, the 08s have been moved between locations by rail, in the consist of freight trains: With their side rods removed, they are permitted to be hauled at 35mph. Problem is, there are few 35mph trip workings these days, so movement by road is the only sensible option. Although, I remember when the Heaton depot shunter got transferred away to Thornaby in the nineties, it did so under its’ own power. 15mph for the 50 or so miles from Newcastle to Middlesborough, via the Durham Coast. It must have visited every freight loop on the route. A track bashers’ dream!

I agree that a medium-powered Bo-bo loco for shunting and light freight work would be more suitable than a new shunter design. With there being a dwindling fleet of available locos with sufficiently low axle loadings to access all Network Rail routes, such as 20s and 37s, they could be really useful. And it would be a lot more efficient than the current practice of using 3,000hp class 66s for trip workings of a few wagons for repair or transfer between local sites.

Bring back the Claytons!
 

LE Greys

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In the past, the 08s have been moved between locations by rail, in the consist of freight trains: With their side rods removed, they are permitted to be hauled at 35mph. Problem is, there are few 35mph trip workings these days, so movement by road is the only sensible option. Although, I remember when the Heaton depot shunter got transferred away to Thornaby in the nineties, it did so under its’ own power. 15mph for the 50 or so miles from Newcastle to Middlesborough, via the Durham Coast. It must have visited every freight loop on the route. A track bashers’ dream!

I agree that a medium-powered Bo-bo loco for shunting and light freight work would be more suitable than a new shunter design. With there being a dwindling fleet of available locos with sufficiently low axle loadings to access all Network Rail routes, such as 20s and 37s, they could be really useful. And it would be a lot more efficient than the current practice of using 3,000hp class 66s for trip workings of a few wagons for repair or transfer between local sites.

Bring back the Claytons!

I've often wondered if it's possible to design a half-size version of the Class 66 with a smaller engine (presumably Type 3). However, it doesn't seem that EMD have any current products designed to be that small (road-switcher size to an American). Not really sure what else is out there on the market, certainly not in twin-cab configuration anyway.
 

Peter Sarf

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I agree the route availability of the rural lines that currently rely on 20s and 37s do dictate a lower axle load Bo-Bo or Co-Co locomotive. I wonder if there is enough demand there to justify designing a new locomotive that would also cover shunting duties. Energy efficiency would come in the form of two engines with only one left running to keep the loco warm while hanging around for its next shunting duty. Does it have to be a Bo-Bo locomotive ?. What about those diesel units that Network Rail use that look like container wagons with cabs and engines (sorry the right description/name escapes me). I think maybe I have found a use for the pacers - or at least some of them !.

Realistically I reckon that there are too many underused existing locomotives (20/37) around to prevent there being enough demamnd for a new design. Nice to see the English Electric sound will be with us for quite some time yet !.
 

jopsuk

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Reckon he means the MPVs

A shunter (or even main-line) loco is rather shorter- a long shunter is an awkward proposal.
 
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