Potential alternative services during King's Cross remodelling in 2020

[A0wen]

They've done it before, and they have the track access right to do so.



http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/16720/s22-hull-trains-16th-supplemental-agreement.pdf

St Pancras has been achieved by way of a route via Leicester, and also a route via Camden Road in the past.

You're forgetting that the MML will have reduced capacity during this time due to the Corby electrification - so unlikely diversions via Leicester will work.

Routing via Camden Road is slow - and also needs platform availability at St Pancras - good luck with getting that during the rush hour.

 

[IanXC]

You're forgetting that the MML will have reduced capacity during this time due to the Corby electrification - so unlikely diversions via Leicester will work.

Routing via Camden Road is slow - and also needs platform availability at St Pancras - good luck with getting that during the rush hour.

I'm not 'forgetting' that. It was made entirely clear in the application for these rights that HT expect to be 'last on the graph'.

We're not talking about a half hourly service all day - are you seriously suggesting that there would not be available paths via Leicester for 3 or 4 trains over the whole day? I'm sorry but I just dont accept that.

The diversion via Camden Road may be slow, but they've done it with great success in the past - I have no doubt that a repeat of that would be HT's preference over terminating at Peterborough/Stevenage/Finsbury Park - should there not be suitable paths/arrangements to get them to Kings Cross.

 

[Bald Rick]

They've done it before, and they have the track access right to do so.



http://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0016/16720/s22-hull-trains-16th-supplemental-agreement.pdf

St Pancras has been achieved by way of a route via Leicester, and also a route via Camden Road in the past.

There won't be any spare fast line paths south of Bedford in the peaks.

 

[Class 170101]

Any space in St Pancras Platforms 11 to 13? (Javelin Platforms)

 

[Bald Rick]

Any space in St Pancras Platforms 11 to 13? (Javelin Platforms)

No, and even if there was, and the trains were allowed, it would be an awfully long way round to get there. You'd be seeing most of South London and Kent.

 

[A0wen]

There won't be any spare fast line paths south of Bedford in the peaks.

So the only option would be off peak - and that still assumes platform availability at St P - which from a quick look yesterday is at a premium. I think the longest any of the EMT platforms were vacant for was about 20 mins.

 

[Bald Rick]

So the only option would be off peak - and that still assumes platform availability at St P - which from a quick look yesterday is at a premium. I think the longest any of the EMT platforms were vacant for was about 20 mins.

I wouldn't rule it out, but it is very unlikely in a MML post Dec 19 timetable world.

 

[Kieran1990]

I’m sure some timetable adjustments could be made for HT. But they might just double up with GC at Don and work 10 car 180’s to KGX. With GC runnig a feeder Bradford to Don service to connect with Sunderland & Hull combos done to KGX.

 

[Class 170101]

No, and even if there was, and the trains were allowed, it would be an awfully long way round to get there. You'd be seeing most of South London and Kent.

Isn't there supposed to be a link from the Kings Cross Incline onto these platforms?

 

[Bald Rick]

Isn't there supposed to be a link from the Kings Cross Incline onto these platforms?

Nope. The link from the KX incline is into the international platforms only. And besides, IIRC it's not commissioned anyway.

 

[takno]

Nope. The link from the KX incline is into the international platforms only. And besides, IIRC it's not commissioned anyway.

all the track diagrams and satellite photos I've seen have the link running to the domestic platforms as well. I thought I also saw it used last year as well, which suggests it could be recommissioned fairly easily

 

[cuccir]

To be fair the trains I've taken this week have been a bit quieter. I think you're way off base with the idea of halving the Edinburgh service being okay though. I've not been on a train that was less than 80% full south of Newcastle, and some of them were deeply off-peak

Really? I commute Durham-Newcastle and with flexible working patterns find myself travelling at a range of times, and that is not my experience of East Coast's services. I'd say it's only during disruptions that I can't find two empty seats next to each other, admittedly usually by wandering down to coach B. Things were busier last week as there was a reduced service (2tph Darlington-Newcastle) due to engineering works.

With regards to the wider timetabling: there's currently 13tph. Let's say that they can run 6 most of the time.

I'd run
* 1tph limited stops Edinburgh-Newcastle-York-Kings Cross
* 1tph Leeds - Stevenage (though see below)
* 1tph Edinburgh/Newcastle - Stevenage, all stops
* 1tph Other Long Distance (Hull Trains, Grand Central etc) - Stevenage
* 3tph Stevenage-Finnsbury Park-Kings Cross express shuttle
* 1tph Peterborough-Kings Cross all stops
* 1tph Cambridge-Thameslink all stops

This presumes that:

* There's capacity in the Stevenage area of course to put these trains somewhere! If there isn't, perhaps 1tph of the long distance services could terminate at Peterborough instead
* East Midlands Trains can enhance their Leeds-St Pancras service to at least 1 every 2 hours. If this can't be done, then the services from Leeds would have to run to Kings Cross, and potentially the Stevenage-Kings Cross express cut back to 2tph. Furthermore, if the capacity could be found for 7tph at Kings Cross, then I'd make extending the Leeds services the priority.

 

[Monarch010]

Or for another comparison, note that GWR are currently offering special bargain fares until Easter. They have chosen this particular time of year because traffic is at its lowest.

I used the airline comparison because they can and do adjust their frequencies to meet likely demand. They're not in the business of transporting fresh air.

I thought one of the complaints about airlines is that the air in cabins isn't fresh

 

[takno]

Really? I commute Durham-Newcastle and with flexible working patterns find myself travelling at a range of times, and that is not my experience of East Coast's services. I'd say it's only during disruptions that I can't find two empty seats next to each other, admittedly usually by wandering down to coach B. Things were busier last week as there was a reduced service (2tph Darlington-Newcastle) due to engineering works.

To be fair I can quite often get a couple of seats to myself for most of the journey, but I'm rarely choosing from a wide selection, and even then half the other seats will have both seats occupied. I rarely get the stoppers, so they could be a bit quieter.

I think realistically that you'd have to terminate some of the trains from Scotland short just to all the routes running. I'm just not seeing the trains right now as being empty enough to do that without causing overcrowding and disruption.

 

[Bald Rick]

all the track diagrams and satellite photos I've seen have the link running to the domestic platforms as well. I thought I also saw it used last year as well, which suggests it could be recommissioned fairly easily

You need to look again. The track diagrams, and aerial photography, confirm there is no route from the KX incline to either the MML or HS1 domestic platforms. It goes only to the international platforms. As do the similar connections from the MML and North London line (the WCML connection).

 

[MarkyT]

You need to look again. The track diagrams, and aerial photography, confirm there is no route from the KX incline to either the MML or HS1 domestic platforms. It goes only to the international platforms. As do the similar connections from the MML and North London line (the WCML connection).

The single track connections from NLL(WCML), MML and ECML each give direct access to and from all six international platforms at St Pancras, but no others.

 

[takno]

You need to look again. The track diagrams, and aerial photography, confirm there is no route from the KX incline to either the MML or HS1 domestic platforms. It goes only to the international platforms. As do the similar connections from the MML and North London line (the WCML connection).

Sorry, you're absolutely right. It's a bit of a mess of flyovers and dive-unders and I was following them wrongly