Potential future uses for class 68 & Mk5 sets?

[Zontar]

Might be a temp fix for this proposal

Stirling to London - Grand Union Trains Ltd

As our second proposed open access route in the UK, we are planning to introduce a new service between Stirling and London along the West Coast Main Line during 2025. This service will transform the connectivity of a whole range of significant and rapidly changing Scottish towns along the...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

 

[Snow1964]

Might be a temp fix for this proposal

Stirling to London - Grand Union Trains Ltd

As our second proposed open access route in the UK, we are planning to introduce a new service between Stirling and London along the West Coast Main Line during 2025. This service will transform the connectivity of a whole range of significant and rapidly changing Scottish towns along the...

www.granduniontrains.co.uk

Whilst mk5s could work, I think the line is 100% electrified so class 68 seems bad choice. However alternative electric locos like class 90 or 91 have different push-pull control system

 

[Zontar]

Whilst mk5s could work, I think the line is 100% electrified so class 68 seems bad choice. However alternative electric locos like class 90 or 91 have different push-pull control system

Yes I agree, but just thinking what's available for the service they want to give. As I say temp fix until they secure something more electric

 

[The Planner]

Yes I agree, but just thinking what's available for the service they want to give. As I say temp fix until they secure something more electric

They need 110mph capable stock.

 

[Greybeard33]

They need 110mph capable stock.

The Mk5a's are 125mph capable. The just need a suitable electric loco....

 

[The Planner]

The Mk5a's are 125mph capable. The just need a suitable electric loco....

I know, but the poster was suggesting using 68s.

 

[Iskra]

Whilst mk5s could work, I think the line is 100% electrified so class 68 seems bad choice. However alternative electric locos like class 90 or 91 have different push-pull control system

88’s are compatible too

 

[43096]

88’s are compatible too

And are 100mph.

 

[172007]

88’s are compatible too

And if the wires come down they can still move.

 

[gingertom]

I can't see the MK5s being used on the WCML with a 100mph loco. I could see them being used to replace the HSTs on the Central belt / Aberdeen/Inverness routes though.

 

[172007]

I can't see the MK5s being used on the WCML with a 100mph loco. I could see them being used to replace the HSTs on the Central belt / Aberdeen/Inverness routes though.

Thinking about it and it's speculative i admit but we have seen Electrostars and Desiros upped from 100mph to 110mph. Wonder of it's remotely possible with 88's and Mk5A's.

 

[gingertom]

Thinking about it and it's speculative i admit but we have seen Electrostars and Desiros upped from 100mph to 110mph. Wonder of it's remotely possible with 88's and Mk5A's.

As well as Electrostars and Desiros, 47/7s were allowed 100mph from 95 and I believe a 37 was trialled at 100, up from 90, so it's not as though it hasn't happened before. Not sure if the 68 would need some mods to allow 110mph running. I suspect the answer will be yes, but at a cost which no-one will be prepared to pay.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Whilst mk5s could work, I think the line is 100% electrified so class 68 seems bad choice. However alternative electric locos like class 90 or 91 have different push-pull control system

My money would be on 88s. Good chance they are totally compatible as related to the 68s.

As well as Electrostars and Desiros, 47/7s were allowed 100mph from 95 and I believe a 37 was trialled at 100, up from 90, so it's not as though it hasn't happened before. Not sure if the 68 would need some mods to allow 110mph running. I suspect the answer will be yes, but at a cost which no-one will be prepared to pay.

I would have thought 110mph for the 88s could be entirely feasible. The 88s possibly only need certification for a higher speed, otherwise re-geared. If WCML then my money would on modified/certified 88s - that would be cheaper and more feasible than silencer modifications to the 68s.

Wonder if we might get away with the noise of a 68 down the WCML though .

 

[Iskra]

Thinking about it and it's speculative i admit but we have seen Electrostars and Desiros upped from 100mph to 110mph. Wonder of it's remotely possible with 88's and Mk5A's.

Probably not worth it, but an electric locomotive may provide better acceleration which could compensate for the slightly reduced top speed somewhat depending on how many stops there are on the route.

 

[D365]

Yes I agree, but just thinking what's available for the service they want to give. As I say temp fix until they secure something more electric

They need 110mph capable stock.

The Mk5a's are 125mph capable. The just need a suitable electric loco....

Class 93?

 

[gingertom]

Class 93?

I was going to say that but the last time I mentioned 93s for a marginal flow like this ended with me getting my head chewed off.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Class 93?

Really anything with a Vossloh/Stadler heritage might work easily. It is not going to need much diesel power so the 88 should be powerful enough BUT a 93 or 99 might be just as compatible iirc ?.

Que the imminent 93s test run being with a rake of Mk5s. There are some Mk5s at Crewe ready and waiting. I feel a surprise coming on.


EDIT

The Chiltern tender closed today, 02.02.2024 at 0900 so I guess we will find out soon, perhaps even by the end of the month.

I meant to ask earlier. Is there anything in the tender that says when a decision should be made by ?.

 

[gingertom]

Really anything with a Vossloh/Stadler heritage might work easily. It is not going to need much diesel power so the 88 should be powerful enough BUT a 93 or 99 might be just as compatible iirc ?.

Que the imminent 93s test run being with a rake of Mk5s. There are some Mk5s at Crewe ready and waiting. I feel a surprise coming on.

I think you are right. Somebody knows what is going on behind the scenes and, probably for commercial confidentiality reasons, can't say much.

 

[sjpowermac]

I meant to ask earlier. Is there anything in the tender that says when a decision should be made by ?.

There is not a date shown by when the decision will be made.

Regarding the use of Mk5A stock by an open access operator, I don’t think that would come as any great surprise, given the long lead times for new build rolling stock.

In the case of the London-Sterling service the website does, however, state Class 22x rolling stock. I guess things can change though.

Call me biased, but I still think that TPE, particularly the South Route Liverpool to Cleethorpes is the best use for the stock, but sadly that ship has well and truly sailed!

 

[craigybagel]

The other option is a class 175. Not sure how the cab door window being slimmer, further back and seemingly lower down would work with the CCTV monitors on the platforms south of Banbury. This may well cause issue.

Any 175 drivers have a view on looking at platform mounted monitors for dispatch and suitability?

Off topic for a 68/MKV thread, but you are correct in that they will cause issues. It would be near impossible to use platform based DOO equipment on a 175.

 

[172007]

Off topic for a 68/MKV thread, but you are correct in that they will cause issues. It would be near impossible to use platform based DOO equipment on a 175.

I would argue that its not off topic on the basis that my question and your answer strenghen one of the theories that the 68 / Mk5A stock or some may go to Chiltern and its possible suitability.

I think the thread title really needs to drop the "Class 68" as the thread is really 100% MK5A speculation.

 

[gingertom]

I would argue that its not off topic on the basis your that my question and your answer strenghen one of the theories that the 68 / Mk5A stock or some may go to Chiltern and its possible suitability.

I think the thread title really needs to drop the "Class 68" as the thread is really 100% MK5A speculation.

the class 68s will have a home hauling freight if there's no work hauling MK5s. The MK5s also have a future, perhaps not with 68 haulage.

 

[WideRanger]

Might not be relevant in practice, but have been wondering for some time. When travelling in central europe, I sometimes see a locomotive in the middle of a formation. Some previous posts have wondered whether two sets can be connected together to form a 10-car set, and one of the problems has been a lack of gangway connection at the lovcomotive end. Assuming that this cannot / will not be changed, then would two sets be able to be attached around a locomotive? And if so, would a single class 68 (or another locomotive) have enough power to propel it at reasonable speed?

 

[gingertom]

Might not be relevant in practice, but have been wondering for some time. When travelling in central europe, I sometimes see a locomotive in the middle of a formation. Some previous posts have wondered whether two sets can be connected together to form a 10-car set, and one of the problems has been a lack of gagway connection at the lovcomotive end. Assuming that this cannot / will not be changed, then would two sets be able to be attached around a locomotive? And if so, would a single class 68 (or another locomotive) have enough power to propel it at reasonable speed?

A Class 92 has the grunt to move 10 cars as you describe with ease, as it does with the MK5 sleepers already, so controlling a middle-located loco from either end might be a possibility. The 140kph top speed will make finding paths a challenge. For higher top speed a 90 or a 93 would be more appropriate. You'd be better off assembling a longer rake with additional vehicles and operating push/pull than putting a loco in the middle though.

 

[Snow1964]

I meant to ask earlier. Is there anything in the tender that says when a decision should be made by ?.

No, but should be fairly clear within couple of hours, if they have a clear winner, when one compliant bid is miles ahead on price and/or quality (or is only bid).

If 2 or more bids are quite close, then will take more evaluating, and of course if a bid is not quite meeting spec, need to decide if it is close enough.

If they had tender funding pre approved and within budget it is quick DfT rubber stamping exercise. On other hand if only just starting negotiations about funding approval, it could be months.

 

[D365]

Do we know as yet what tasks the class 93 is going to be rostered to do?

No - and I wasn’t being entirely serious. There isn’t the electrification in place to support the use of these locomotives away from the electrified mainlines.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No - and I wasn’t being entirely serious. There isn’t the electrification in place to support the use of these locomotives away from the electrified mainlines.

I think any Bi-Mode locomotive (88, 93 or 99), for the Mk5s, would really be relevant for something like the Euston to Stirling open access operation suggested up thread. Certainly no use for the Chiltern route unless a lot of it got electrified but that would be a long way off.

 

[D365]

I think any Bi-Mode locomotive (88, 93 or 99), for the Mk5s, would really be relevant for something like the Euston to Stirling open access operation suggested up thread.

Ah - there seems to be two concurrent dialogues about use of the Mk5a coaching stock on Chiltern routes or West Coast open access.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Ah - there seems to be two concurrent dialogues about use of the Mk5a coaching stock on Chiltern routes or West Coast open access.

Only two concurrent dialogues at the moment !. I, like you, reserve the right to be confused .

At its simplest it is a case of where can we put these shiny new-ish Mk5s. The 68s are less of a solution looking for a problem as they have many uses. Although the lack of 68s should they find use first might be a killer for the Mk5s.

 

[zwk500]

Only two concurrent dialogues at the moment !. I, like you, reserve the right to be confused .

At its simplest it is a case of where can we put these shiny new-ish Mk5s. The 68s are less of a solution looking for a problem as they have many uses. Although the lack of 68s should they find use first might be a killer for the Mk5s.

There was suggestion some pages back (correcting an assumption by myself) that the Mk5A controls can only work with 68s - can anybody confirm if 88s can work with Mk5As without modification?