Potential future uses for stored HSTs?

[ForTheLoveOf]

I presume the units which are being stored will be let to rot away? How much work will it take if they want to do anything with them? Or are they going to end up at the scrappy?

 

[Mag_seven]

I presume the units which are being stored will be let to rot away? How much work will it take if they want to do anything with them? Or are they going to end up at the scrappy?

It really depends if they have any takers for them e.g. an open access operator or a freight company (GBRf were talking about converting ex HST sets into parcels units). If there are no takers then they may very well be left to rot unfortunately.

 

[Journeyman]

If there are no takers then they may very well be left to rot unfortunately.

Why is it unfortunate, if no-one can find a use for them?

Never quite understood the desperation some enthusiasts have to try and find new homes for obsolete traction. Look at the attempts to try and use 442s in all sorts of unsuitable places. Why?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Why is it unfortunate, if no-one can find a use for them?

Never quite understood the desperation some enthusiasts have to try and find new homes for obsolete traction. Look at the attempts to try and use 442s in all sorts of unsuitable places. Why?

I suppose the reason is that the Mark III carriages still have plenty of life left in them (although there can be no doubt they will structurally be in worse condition than new(er) stock), and they are far more comfortable than the new stock that is being brought in. Plus there are loads of trains that still get short-formed or cancelled due to a "shortage of trains", and at the same time we are shelving, and leaving to rot, perfectly good 125mph trains!

Of course it is always a lot more complex than that, and in many respects it would be possible to make the new trains more comfortable than the Mark IIIs. And with some foresight, planning and a reduced number of c***ups many of these short-forms and cancellations would never happen in the first place. But even that, which would allay the fears and complaints of many an HST fan (of which I would not really classify myself as one), seems to be a stretch too far for our dear rail industry.

 

[Journeyman]

I can assure you that the average Mark 3 has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. Without very significant work, of the kind Wabtec are currently making a right hash of, they absolutely do not have plenty of life left in them.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I can assure you that the average Mark 3 has more holes in it than a Swiss cheese. Without very significant work, of the kind Wabtec are currently making a right hash of, they absolutely do not have plenty of life left in them.

This might well be the case, but if the railway had some more overarching organisation - led by an organisation less incompetent than the DfT - then we would not be here today. Anyway, it is what it is, and this is getting a little off topic now!

 

[cactustwirly]

Why is it unfortunate, if no-one can find a use for them?

Never quite understood the desperation some enthusiasts have to try and find new homes for obsolete traction. Look at the attempts to try and use 442s in all sorts of unsuitable places. Why?

Because XC has a huge capacity problem, they could take on a few sets in the short to medium term, to allow more doubling up of Voyagers.

 

[zn1]

it will be easier and quicker for the roscos and owning companies to identify the worst coaches in the fleet, that way the uneconomically identified vehicles can be chopped or sold on to heritage railways..,
a final fleet figure for the MK3s can be established, the Class 43 locos all appear to be in good shape, so they have a life IF they are needed and can be sold on too as required ... if not...the cutters await them...much as all railwaymen and gricers hate it..they have now reached their expected life expectancy age.

There were main line express kettles that didnt reach this age in traffic, the HST, MK3 fleet has exceeded all expectations, it has paid for itself several times over...both with BR and with the TOCS/ROSCOS

thats the reality of things

time for new squadrons to take over..

the western has been here before...it will again ...

 

[nat67]

If there are no takers then they may very well be left to rot unfortunately.

Hopefully the 125 group will save at least one power car, hopefully 43053

 

[nat67]

Because XC has a huge capacity problem, they could take on a few sets in the short to medium term, to allow more doubling up of Voyagers.

The LNER one's would be perfect as they had new MTU's and are very similar to XC one's.

 

[Journeyman]

Because XC has a huge capacity problem, they could take on a few sets in the short to medium term, to allow more doubling up of Voyagers.

...only to have to give them up again at the end of the year, because they're not PRM compliant. By the time you've ensured they're fit for service and trained all the required drivers, you'll get a couple of months out of them at the most.

 

[cactustwirly]

The LNER one's would be perfect as they had new MTU's and are very similar to XC one's.

Eh? The GWR HSTs have the same engine!

 

[nat67]

Eh? The GWR HSTs have the same engine!

The EC ones were given brand new engines in 2016 as part of the VTEC upgrade.

 

[anamyd]

The EC ones were given brand new engines in 2016 as part of the VTEC upgrade.

brand new MTU 4000s?!

 

[cactustwirly]

The EC ones were given brand new engines in 2016 as part of the VTEC upgrade.

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they were just overhauled, this is done periodically after a set number of hours.

 

[nat67]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they were just overhauled, this is done periodically after a set number of hours.

Well the engine's were painted red . You could be absolutely right though Cactus.

 

[43096]

Are you sure? I'm pretty sure they were just overhauled, this is done periodically after a set number of hours.

You are correct. The VTEC engines had scheduled QL4 overhauls (and were painted red when they were done). It was Virgin spin to call them new. The QL4 overhaul is a full strip down and engine rebuild, done at MTU’s Magdeburg facility.

 

[221129]

...only to have to give them up again at the end of the year, because they're not PRM compliant. By the time you've ensured they're fit for service and trained all the required drivers, you'll get a couple of months out of them at the most.

Why would train crew need training on traction they already sign? And PRM is not as big an issue as people are making out.

 

[scotraildriver]

You are correct. The VTEC engines had scheduled QL4 overhauls (and were painted red when they were done). It was Virgin spin to call them new. The QL4 overhaul is a full strip down and engine rebuild, done at MTU’s Magdeburg facility.

One of which is on loan to Scotrail in 43134.

 

[tbtc]

Why is it unfortunate, if no-one can find a use for them?

Never quite understood the desperation some enthusiasts have to try and find new homes for obsolete traction. Look at the attempts to try and use 442s in all sorts of unsuitable places. Why?

+1

If you are desperate to find a home for HSTs then you are looking at a high speed route that isn't (wholly) electrified, not a lot of breaking/accelerating (given the relative problems that they have compared to a Voyager etc), minimum of three hundred seats required, profitable enough to pay the higher track access fees needed for a train with two locomotives (rather than the distributed traction of a Voyager etc)...

...and that's assuming that the problems Wabtec have had in upgrading the Mk3s to 2020 standards haven't put you off...

...or the fact that we have production lines of more than one type of 100mph DMU (so a chance to go for a competitive bid - why waste time adapting 1970s HSTs when you have a production line of FLIRTs etc).

There'll be a few suggestions for XC (despite the fact that HSTs can't cope with Voyager timings) and maybe the Settle & Carlisle (despite the fact that you only need a handful of trains to work the service on the 70mph line with several intermediate stops), maybe someone will come up with a new service invented just to keep the HSTs needed (oh, please, I hope someone suggests Nottingham to Glasgow...).

They've done well to last as long as they did - a lot of front line "flagship" stock didn't last anything like as long - but there's really not much use for them (I doubt the ScotRail ones will be in service for a full ten years - they seem to be a stopgap whilst The Powers That Be decide what to do about electrification beyond Dunblane).

Meanwhile the simple low speed 150s will outlast the HST.

 

[43096]

One of which is on loan to Scotrail in 43134.

Interesting gen - thanks.

 

[richard1976]

What about 2 sets to Scotrail to replace the Mark 2 loco hauled sets

 

[deltic08]

+1

If you are desperate to find a home for HSTs then you are looking at a high speed route that isn't (wholly) electrified, not a lot of breaking/accelerating (given the relative problems that they have compared to a Voyager etc), minimum of three hundred seats required, profitable enough to pay the higher track access fees needed for a train with two locomotives (rather than the distributed traction of a Voyager etc)...

...and that's assuming that the problems Wabtec have had in upgrading the Mk3s to 2020 standards haven't put you off...

...or the fact that we have production lines of more than one type of 100mph DMU (so a chance to go for a competitive bid - why waste time adapting 1970s HSTs when you have a production line of FLIRTs etc).

There'll be a few suggestions for XC (despite the fact that HSTs can't cope with Voyager timings) and maybe the Settle & Carlisle (despite the fact that you only need a handful of trains to work the service on the 70mph line with several intermediate stops), maybe someone will come up with a new service invented just to keep the HSTs needed (oh, please, I hope someone suggests Nottingham to Glasgow...).

Sadly the Settle Carlisle is only 60mph. Maybe we could have some HST70 or 80 speed boards but NR can't give us SP70 or 80 boards now so what hope in the future?

 

[DPWH]

I have no doubt a set or two will be preserved and occasionally as a nostalgic excursion train. Maybe Kings's X - Lincoln for the Xmas market on a Sunday, or a trip over the S&C. Or a beerex, where enthusiasts can complain about how they never should have been withdrawn. Basically what the Deltics do. And the LNER pacifics that came before them. And what the Azoomas will do in forty years time when they've had it as well.

 

[hooverboy]

It really depends if they have any takers for them e.g. an open access operator or a freight company (GBRf were talking about converting ex HST sets into parcels units). If there are no takers then they may very well be left to rot unfortunately.

DRS possibly as a replacement for the T+T 37's and mk2's.

surely there's a market for charter, rescue and football specials.

they would make a welcome replacement on the wherry lines once the 37's are retired...keeps the kids and enthusiasts happy!

I think i've also suggested before that vivarail should get their hands on a few dozen power cars and cut "n" shut them so that the cl20's can be retired...we still have desperate need of a light (dual mode preferable) mixed freight engine with stupidly low RA.
cl88's and soon-to-be 93's are both RA7, which is a big restriction on allowed paths.

a re-geared hst ( to 75 or 90mph)could work.... nice short wheelbase,2250hp is cl4 territory,and at RA5 is the same as CL37.Even de-tuned to 1800hp-ish for better fuel economy is a option
..it would also need to bulk up by a few tonnes to improve the tractive effort...but the addition of OHL pick up gear,transformers,batteries etc should see to that.

extra poles on the motors should increase torque at lower RPM,at the expense of speed(would need to check compatibility with train control system in this case).
If it's a DC control system with old fashioned motors, it should not be an issue, but AC via frequency convertor would run into timing problems.

for a super cheap solution to 2*20 maybe back to back re-geared/re-motored cl43 is what we'll see in the future...with the addition of slow speed control and start/stop.

 

[Along the bay]

What about 2 sets to Scotrail to replace the Mark 2 loco hauled sets

Being replaced by 170s last time I checked.

 

[Rail Blues]

This might well be the case, but if the railway had some more overarching organisation - led by an organisation less incompetent than the DfT - then we would not be here today

In what sense, i don't doubt the need for greater cental oversight, but i doubt said body would be devoting hour after hour thinking 'how can we shoehorn knackered 40 year old carriages with more holes than the polo factory absolutely anywhere we can onto the network to keep the spotters happy.'

I think i've also suggested before that vivarail should get their hands on a few dozen power cars and cut "n" shut them so that the cl20's can be retired...we still have desperate need of a light (dual mode preferable) mixed freight engine with stupidly low

You did indeed suggest that on another thread and plenty of people more knowledgeable than either of us explained in some detail why it was a complete nonstarter.

 

[Journeyman]

In what sense, i don't doubt the need for greater cental oversight, but i doubt said body would be devoting hour after hour thinking 'how can we shoehorn knackered 40 year old carriages with more holes than the polo factory absolutely anywhere we can onto the network to keep the spotters happy.'

A lot of people can't understand that (a) any HST kept long-term needs a huge amount of expensive work done on it for PRM-TSI compliance and (b) the railways aren't a spotters' theme park.

 

[Timrud]

Glasgow to Nottingham would be a good route

 

[Killingworth]

Glasgow to Nottingham would be a good route

Why not Penzance to Thurso with sleeping accommodation to operate a weekly first class tourist Blue Train or Ghan Train service? Longest through train in Britain. Could be hop on, hop off, longer stops at tourist cities like Edinburgh, York, Bath to see the sights. 2 dedicated trains. Let's not spare ourselves from a good long run.

You never know, it might catch on. Anyone got a few million quid spare to chuck at the idea?