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Potential Grand Union stock?

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Bob Price

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A Cardiff - London “interim service” would be nothing but a straightforward revenue grab off GWR. Why would it ever be approved by ORR?
Only going with what the original proposal was. Cardiff to London using 91's and Mk4's and then the Welsh government got involved and convinced them to start at Llanelli. This current iteration hasn't mentioned the interim service but who knows.
 
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Chester1

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But that is the joy of the speculation thread. If they are buying off the shelf 802's then even then it will be a push to get them made, but as you say, Hitachi seem to think they can do it.

However if this slips I can see something in place for a Cardiff London interim service, possibly using spare EMUs just to use the paths and drive some revenue.

More importantly will they be red, white and green with a huge dragon on them

Its getting close to realms of fantasy rather than speculation. I reckon if the trains are late the launch will be delayed.

Red, white, green with a huge dragon on them is more plausible! Welsh government might invest in long term. They are very supportive and already own a ToC.
 

D365

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But they have/are getting class 170 units which where previously class 171 units from Southern which are replacing class 158/156 units?
Not enough 170s to cover the full Liverpool-Norwich service. In any case, there's no point turning this into another thread of 170 & 22x speculation...
 

43102EMR

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The only thing I can see happening really is second-hand diesel stock used in the interim, with 80X bi-modes procured for the longer-term. Then again, there’s probably something similar or completely different going on behind the scenes right now…
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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Red, white, green with a huge dragon on them is more plausible! Welsh government might invest in long term. They are very supportive and already own a ToC.
It's funny that so many on here loathed the name "Great British Railways" and despised the perfectly simple Union-Jack take on the logo, and yet encourage Wales' national colours - bearing in mind red and green is a far more gaudy, garish combination, not to mention the dragon - with great emphasis.
 

Chester1

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It's funny that so many on here loathed the name "Great British Railways" and despised the perfectly simple Union-Jack take on the logo, and yet encourage Wales' national colours - bearing in mind red and green is a far more gaudy, garish combination, not to mention the dragon - with great emphasis.

I don't have a problem with displaying the four national flags or the Union flag! Its fairly obvious that government agencies or government owned companies that will operate in Great Britain but not Northern Ireland be called some like British X or Y and use the union flag as logo. People who dislike the UK flag and live in UK must get triggered a lot... At the same time a tasteful use of elements of the Welsh flag would be appropriate for Grand Union, especially if Welsh Government ever gets directly involved. I guess though it risks a branding issue if the Stirling service is approved.
 

TT-ONR-NRN

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I don't have a problem with displaying the four national flags or the Union flag! Its fairly obvious that government agencies or government owned companies that will operate in Great Britain but not Northern Ireland be called some like British X or Y and use the union flag as logo. People who dislike the UK flag and live in UK must get triggered a lot... At the same time a tasteful use of elements of the Welsh flag would be appropriate for Grand Union, especially if Welsh Government ever gets directly involved. I guess though it risks a branding issue if the Stirling service is approved.
Great British Railways wasn't scheduled to run in Northern Ireland anyway, just in Great Britain!

Ironically, Grand Union will spend more time in England (123 miles Paddington - Severn Tunnel) than Wales (96 miles Severn Tunnel - Carmarthen)
 

Trainbike46

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I think the main issues were that GBR would be replacing better branding, specifically the BR name and logo (which to me at least, convey the same information/identity but in a less awkward manner?)

Adding union jack colours to the arrows logo just makes it overly busy - I would have no objection to having union jacks in appropriate places, but would leave the arrows logo alone.

The saltire livery in Scotland is nicely done, I think.

In England, I would consider maybe including local things in liveries. Back to grand union, who wouldn't want a dragon on the train? I feel like there's a lot of opportunity to do cool stuff with that!
 

Bletchleyite

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It's funny that so many on here loathed the name "Great British Railways" and despised the perfectly simple Union-Jack take on the logo, and yet encourage Wales' national colours - bearing in mind red and green is a far more gaudy, garish combination, not to mention the dragon - with great emphasis.

Nobody particularly seems to care that National Express's brand is red, white and blue, though to be fair many probably haven't drawn the connection as it isn't gaudy or overdone.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: ==

In England, I would consider maybe including local things in liveries. Back to grand union, who wouldn't want a dragon on the train? I feel like there's a lot of opportunity to do cool stuff with that!

I thought nobody did that better than Regional Railways. A core livery (blue with the stripes device), but the same recognisable livery structure with different colours in different areas. Stagecoach Beachball has a load of variants too, the most notable is the Lakes one where the mountains at the back follow the beachball shape!
 

Pete_uk

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They say this about 3 classes then say on the form P; “Trains will also have a fixed buffet/kitchen serving both classes of passengers” as far as I know both only is two?

Those in 'Economy standard' can bring their own dripping sandwiches and thermos tea.

I do like the idea of a bright red, green and white 8 carriage 755 (2 carriages, PU, 4 carriages, PU, 2 carriages)
 

Mag_seven

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The BBC news is reporting that Grand Union have been given the go ahead for Carmarthen to Paddington services to start. They have said in the article they expect to start services by the end of 2024.

So what stock will they use? No way they will get 800 series stock built in less than two years and west of Cardiff there are no wires. So will we see 91's and DVTs with and engine change? Does anyone know what is planned?

BBC News - Trains: Plans for new London-west Wales services approved

Thread reopened to allow @bspahh to provide an update.
 

bspahh

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Thread reopened to allow @bspahh to provide an update.
https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...f-uncomfortable-train-seats-coming-to-an-end/ has an interview with Ian Yeowart, Managing Director of Grand Union Trains, and their plans for 2+1 seating in standard class for the Carmarthen service.
The apparent downgrading of train comfort and interior design has been a source of some heated discussion from colleagues both within and outside the railway industry. Seating often ranks several measurable points behind overall passenger satisfaction during rail surveys.

There have been several studies into the science of train seating and comfort, but at the risk of upsetting various consultancy colleagues, is it really scientific? Can it be measured by numbers, or should it be more measured by what is currently regarded as unfashionable common sense? The beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as well as the person who pays the bill. However, a good‑looking seat is not necessarily a comfortable seat!

Thinking of the passenger​

As rail patronage has recovered following the impact of COVID-19, it appears the need to cram ever more seats into train carriages has been the driver of change rather than the comfort of those seats. This also brings with it the added problem of providing sufficient luggage space. On a passenger railway, particularly an intercity one, the comfort of the passenger and adequate luggage provision should be top of the necessary list of requirements (safety is a given), not how many seats can be squeezed into a particular space. Guaranteed to give some of my more ‘fiscally minded’ colleagues a fit of the vapours, comfort and space was our starting point, not the number of seats we could fit into a given space.

Ambience and comfort of interiors is a major priority​

Our developed plans for our approved Carmarthen service alongside our current application for Stirling have one thing in common: the passenger is uppermost in our thoughts, and the ambience and comfort of the interiors is a major priority in what we hope will be an outstanding interior layout. There will be several local journeys on our services, but the services themselves are true intercity services, with many journeys (on both routes) three to five hours in length.

With respect to seating, COVID-19 has shown that many people now expect a little more space, and so, once we had factored the impact on our business model, we have specified 2+1 as our Standard Class interior format, with a recline function on all seats. This also offers extra luggage space within the saloon between various pairs of seat backs. It also gives a wider aisle for getting that luggage into the saloon, and the layout will also provide several individual seats in each vehicle which we believe will be a major hit with individual travellers.

The improving quality and comfort of seats in personal transport provision – that is cars – should really have focused the minds of the public passenger transport providers to at least attempt to keep pace. Instead, with a few notable exceptions, it has gone the other way.

This need for quantity rather than quality has also seen seat profiles reduced, and as they have become thinner, they have generally become more uncomfortable. Obviously, the need to provide compliant seating in respect of fire and other standards is key, but our discussions with suppliers has indicated that they are keen to provide comfortable seats if somebody asks them to!

During the early phase of our development at Grand Union, when speaking to train manufacturers about indicative costs, one of their basic questions was how many seats we needed in a vehicle. They were pleasantly surprised when we turned the question around and asked them to tell us how many seats they thought the vehicle could accommodate. That has been our approach ever since.

We are not looking to reinvent the wheel. Having been involved in direct customer service for more years than I care to remember, I do not ever recall discussions of seat comfort having such prominence before – and this is not a pot shot at the seat manufacturers who are clearly providing the product specified. We would just like to specify something better!

A new era for seating​

Of course, the provision of such a significant improvement in Standard Class seating brings the exciting challenge of what to do in First Class, and while we currently have concepts, the final layout is something we are looking forward to revealing as we move towards service delivery.

The next challenge is how will the saloon interiors look and perform; what fabrics will be used and how can lighting be adapted to ‘suit the mood’ so to speak. Several new train interiors are particularly uninspiring, and while it may not be as critical as the seating itself, first impressions count, and now that we have approval, our work with designers has taken on a new vibrancy.

You will never be able to please everybody, but if our passengers vote with their feet (and bottoms), then perhaps the era of the uncomfortable train seat may be coming to an end.
 

The Planner

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You could be massively cynical with this with a reduced capacity of 2+1 then its easy to claim how popular it is.
 

Energy

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https://www.globalrailwayreview.com...f-uncomfortable-train-seats-coming-to-an-end/ has an interview with Ian Yeowart, Managing Director of Grand Union Trains, and their plans for 2+1 seating in standard class for the Carmarthen service.
The Track Access Agreement application mentions cabins for 1st class (though they look terrible for alone or pairs of travellers), 2+1 for standard and 2+2 for standard economy. I can't find anything about the actual number of seats.
 

jackot

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From what I've heard a stumbling block is the prices Hitachi want to charge for a new ordered of class 802s
Because the IETs are the only new and proven intercity type available to order right now, Hitachi practically dominate the market and thus are likely quoting a high price simply because they can.

If Grand Union want a new 125mph capable intercity train then there is very little choice - is a manufacturer like Siemens or Alstom going to want to design and build a whole new train for such a small order? I doubt it, especially not for a price that is anywhere near competitive to Hitachi's offer (even if it their offer is on the higher end of the scale)
 

zwk500

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Because the IETs are the only new and proven intercity type available to order right now, Hitachi practically dominate the market and thus are likely quoting a high price simply because they can.

If Grand Union want a new 125mph capable intercity train then there is very little choice - is a manufacturer like Siemens or Alstom going to want to design and build a whole new train for such a small order? I doubt it, especially not for a price that is anywhere near competitive to Hitachi's offer (even if it their offer is on the higher end of the scale)
You might be able to tempt CAF to offer a 397 variant if they haven't already reconfigured the production line. But like Hitachi, they'll be able to name their price.
 

popeter45

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You might be able to tempt CAF to offer a 397 variant if they haven't already reconfigured the production line. But like Hitachi, they'll be able to name their price.
do they offer it in a bi-mode configuration?
 

zwk500

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do they offer it in a bi-mode configuration?
I don't know, I'd guess that they could easily do so if they wanted to but it's all academic anyway as GU will surely go with IETs as the basic train is already cleared for the route.
 

HamworthyGoods

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You might be able to tempt CAF to offer a 397 variant if they haven't already reconfigured the production line. But like Hitachi, they'll be able to name their price.

Getting CAF to offer a 397 with ATP will be a first in class and fraught with difficulties. Getting an 80x with ATP was challenging enough.
 

JonathanH

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Hitachi practically dominate the market and thus are likely quoting a high price simply because they can.
...or because the supply chain is charging increased prices?

Ultimately, it is not just a matter of profiteering for the sake of it, but what they actually consider to be the cost of producing the rolling stock and an acceptable margin for their investors.
 

zwk500

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...or because the supply chain is charging increased prices?

Ultimately, it is not just a matter of profiteering for the sake of it, but what they actually consider to be the cost of producing the rolling stock and an acceptable margin for their investors.
...which will be the highest possible margin they can charge without harming future business.
 

zwk500

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Stadler could offer a 745 variant or a 125mph Aventra.
I really can't see Grand Union wanting to go through a entirely new clearance process when there is a common family of trains that suit their needs already cleared over the route. But yes, in theory there are other manufacturers who could offer a train.
 
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