It's a former service entrance that's frequently left open so you can get directly into the car park. It's not signed or designated as an entrance but people often use it.
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Potential Merseyrail expansion beyond Headbolt Lane and/or timetable improvements
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pokemonsuper9
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It gets closed when RPI are present (I assume to make running away harder).
WatcherZero
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Yeah the service entrance shutter is usually left open to help with crowds, they occasionally put a revenue line across it. Before the 1970's rebuild there was also another station entrance built into the south side of the viaduct where they suffered the collapse a couple of years ago exposing the old steps. It was primarily a post/freight entrance but passengers could use it too.
Funnily enough there has almost always been a bridge in that proposed location, nowadays it just crosses the wallgate tracks but it used to be much more extensive.
Funnily enough there has almost always been a bridge in that proposed location, nowadays it just crosses the wallgate tracks but it used to be much more extensive.
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The layout is done in such a way that the up platform will, in effect, become a bay if the line is extended to Wigan/Skem. You'd have a 30 minute service pattern to either Kirkby terminating in this platform or 30 minutes to Wigan/Skem without having to redouble towards Rainford.
This way Kirkby/Headbolt Lane still has a 15 minute interval service.
This way Kirkby/Headbolt Lane still has a 15 minute interval service.
Moderator note:
Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/headbolt-lane-work-commences-soon.225852/
Looking at the image in post #299 (for which many thanks), it appears that the terminating Liverpool platforms curve to the right (North), as if to avoid the arrival and departure siding for the freight depot. Old maps show that it previously had connections both ways and its own sidings, for the ROF and later Kirkby industrial estate.
Also, the "projecting" Wigan platform appears to be precisely in line to serve the down line from Liverpool and so would be in the right place for a future (and ideal) through, 2-platform station. Perhaps this is why it is a permanent 150m long.
The Liverpool terminating platforms seem curved, unusual in a new station, as this can cause gaps. The freight siding looks rather close to, or actually on, the up (Liverpool) track bed, so it may have dictated the shape of the Liverpool platforms, as it is c600m long and might be expensive to move.
Perhaps others could comment further?
WAO
Split from https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/headbolt-lane-work-commences-soon.225852/
Looking at the image in post #299 (for which many thanks), it appears that the terminating Liverpool platforms curve to the right (North), as if to avoid the arrival and departure siding for the freight depot. Old maps show that it previously had connections both ways and its own sidings, for the ROF and later Kirkby industrial estate.
Also, the "projecting" Wigan platform appears to be precisely in line to serve the down line from Liverpool and so would be in the right place for a future (and ideal) through, 2-platform station. Perhaps this is why it is a permanent 150m long.
The Liverpool terminating platforms seem curved, unusual in a new station, as this can cause gaps. The freight siding looks rather close to, or actually on, the up (Liverpool) track bed, so it may have dictated the shape of the Liverpool platforms, as it is c600m long and might be expensive to move.
Perhaps others could comment further?
WAO
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Greybeard33
Established Member
This was previously discussed upthread and I believe the conclusion was that any future eastward Merseyrail extension from Headbolt Lane would be single track to Rainford. The buffer stops and walkway between the Wigan platform and the southern Liverpool platform would be removed and a footbridge constructed between the two Liverpool platforms (there is passive provision in the plans). The northern Liverpool platform would remain a bay for terminating services. (The up and down nomenclature is a bit confusing on this line, because "up" is towards Liverpool west of Kirkby but towards Wigan east of Rainford. Not sure which will apply at Headbolt Lane.)
The new points that the latest image showed were the curvature of the Liverpool bays and the Wigan platform not projecting but being correctly placed for the eastbound line (here down according to SA, NW6015, NW8009), with the freight siding possibly dictating the station plan.
WAO
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Given Wigan to Manchester is currently having electrification works being done, there will come a time in the near future that Kirkby and Southport lines comes in to view for it. Why would Network Rain spend millions on electrification of the Kirkby line when Merseyrail have the answer at a fraction of the cost?
Conversely why should Liverpool pay for trains, staffing, infrastructure, or even for the paperwork, to connect a town in Greater Manchester? Especially when the town we did want to connect gets bypassed. Further undermining Skelmersdale's economy by giving a connectivity boost to Wigan isn't on our agenda. 777s will never go past HL until the town gets its own dedicated station. It's a fair and just price. For once, we are masters of our destiny on this, even if it means that HL is a permanent dead end.
There are many other routes waiting for 777s within our region.
Simply put because that's Merseytravel's objective long term and the current 777/1s can cover the distance. Naturally funding would have to come from Government especially as the scheme would save NR having to cover costs for electrification down the line.
As a commuter who grew up using the line from Hindley and still using it to visit family on occasion in Wigan, I would find that beneficial. I also noted over time alot of customers from Kirkby to Pemberton get off at Wigan. Very few would remain on it beyond and likewise coming back. In my view that is more beneficial for the business case. The line under Merseyrail in my eyes would thrive. Kirkby has always had the poorman train on it with 142s only coming off the line because they were scrapped.
Second to that the frequency. The line moves alot of football fans in from Wigan, to both Everton and Liverpool games. A train direct from Wigan to Sandills on a Tuesday/ Wednesday evening is more appealing than going all the way to Lime Street and in half the time.
Wigan as a town centre is poor for shopping with their miniature L1 struggling for stores. Imagine a service direct from Wigan to a shopping hub like Liverpool City Centre. More frequency on that could lead to more £ in Liverpool shop tils meaning more £ in Liverpudlians pockets and ultimately back in LCR pockets.
There is a business case for it beyond Skelmersdale. Skelmersdale is a good dream but not the be all and end all of it. Wigan has exisiting infrastructure there, just means a change to funding models. Skelmersdale is implementing a whole new infrastructure with very little certainty of return given current proximity to existing stations.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Skelmersdale is a district of West Lancashire...not Merseyside.
childwallblues
Established Member
Kirkby to Wigan is 12.10 miles. The line as far as Rainford is 5.05 miles and is within the Merseyside County Boundary.
777s could well be operating from Bidston to Wrexham if future negotiations are successful.
However was built as an overspill town for Liverpool, hence our continued interest in it.
But of course Wigan DOES already have a regular, electric service to Liverpool from North Western.
And I think Bidston to Wrexham is the more likely given that LCR and the Welsh government appear keen to progress, whilst Lancashire County Council seems to just faff.
Greybeard33
Established Member
Is the formation east of Headbolt Lane wide enough for three tracks, even if the fence between the siding and main line were removed and the siding slewed further away? Assuming it is, I think the easiest/cheapest way to create a two-road through station would be simply to remove the Wigan platform and leave the Liverpool platforms alignments unchanged. It is highly unlikely that Merseyrail trains will ever need longer platforms than these (removal of the buffer stops would increase the usable length substantially).
I like the idea of removing the buffer stops and enabling the 777s to work through straight away, even with a kink in the tracks (no expresses in prospect) but that would need a footbridge and lifts and more money.
The eastbound single track has enough paths for the business on offer, the trains being more capacious.
No harm in hoping.
WAO
The eastbound single track has enough paths for the business on offer, the trains being more capacious.
No harm in hoping.
WAO
Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
IME you are wrong. Passengers using Pemberton and Orrell stations are predominantly travelling to/from locations beyond Wigan. There are both commuters and shoppers going to Manchester as well as college students, not just from all of Wigan borough but also from Salford, to Orrell. If the service was truncated at Wigan a good proportion of these passengers would be lost: I doubt they would be replaced by passengers being able to travel straight through to Liverpool. If Merseytravel really does want to extend the service to Wigan then the best solution (for passengers) would be an overlapping service with Manchester services using a reversal facility at Orrell. I would suggest a better option would be to eventually move the dividing point to an upgraded Upholland station which would be a better railhead for much of Skelmersdale than the often touted (on here) Maghull North.
As for the matter of football fan transport this tends to bring both opportunities and problems. If a rail travel option is so important then the generally very wealthy PL clubs need to stump up the cost of this travel as part of the match ticket price as per the Bundesliga. I'm not holding my breath!
Do you really think that GMCA/TfGM is going to support a scheme that aims to persuade people whose shopping habits are very much geared to Wigan and Manchester to instead spend their money in Liverpool? I get that sometimes political boundaries don't always line up with cultural ones but politicians most definitely have to work within them.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
If there is a thwarted demand for Wigan residents to travel to the centre of Liverpool as you seem to imply, why is there no direct bus service from Wigan bus station to the centre of Liverpool as there is to Southport? Are Wigan shoppers more discerning than you give them credit for?
Perhaps you are unaware there already exists a direct rail service from Wigan North Western station to Liverpool, via St Helens.
Unaware? I literally mention how Wallgate to Central would be half the time thatn Lime Street in my post.
There used to be direct bus routes, I used them as a kid travelling to Liverpool rather than Lime Street. However when the agreement between Lancashire Travel and GM buses was made the routes ceased. That agreement has stood ever since.
Wigan doesn't even have a direct bus route to Manchester now as they see the train as a viable alternative so that point doesn't really stand.
Wigan shopping is being hit by people travelling to Manchester and Liverpool instead as they have the bigger shops that people want in one accessible area. Difference being most are using cars now as Northern made a right mess of reliability in service on the Lime st line and the Kirkby one is a last thought with them.
If TgGM don't want to lose the footfall to Manchester in my opinion they need to serve Orrell and Pemberton better or pass it to someone who can serve them better.
I agree that passengers go to Orrell for the Uni but better transport links can open up Liverpool's universities to more people without the need to rent halls. Maybe you're right a mix of Northern and Merseyrail on thenline could work better for all passengers, either way the service needs to be improved one way or another.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you extended Merseyrail through at 2tph you'd have twice the journey opportunities (a connection with both Southports*) and probably an evening service. Yes, changing is a faff and people prefer direct trains, but I can't imagine preferring an hourly through service that finishes not long after 7pm to that. Plus those people do go to Liverpool on occasions!
A mix of anything with Merseyrail would be negative. Importing delays from Manchester's decidedly unpunctual regional railway would destroy Merseyrail.
* Obviously with 4tph to potentially extend don't choose the two that misconnect...though this is the railway!
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
I'm sure they can manage to change at Wigan, just like my nephew going to Burscough Priory manages to change at Ormskirk, it's hardly Birmingham New St.
It's got nothing to do with where they nominally are in a political sense (people in Wigan consider themselves Lancastrians, by and large, not Mancunians, just as people in St Helens largely do even though they're nominally in the Merseytravel area) but more where the direct trains go to! People wanting to go to Liverpool from Orrell/Pemberton would find it more convenient in most cases to drive to Maghull North or Kirkby via the M58, or just all the way. I bet quite a lot drive to Wigan for the considerably better service and any evening service.
And no, before anyone says, these two statements don't conflict, simply because college students who own cars are very much in the minority.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
I look on matters with the eyes of a realist and see what exactly is the case in actuality. Bryn is as much a part of Wigan as Pemberton. You can currently take a direct train from Wigan North Western to Liverpool Lime Street whereas to go on your route would mean a change at Headbolt Lane.
Large shopping complex bus travel requirements that you cite from Wigan are already covered by the bus service from Wigan bus station to the Trafford Centre and a similar bus service also runs from Leigh bus station. That offers the opportunity not to travel outside the borders of Greater Manchester as a certain Mr Burnham would be only too happy to inform you.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
People from Pemberton wouldn't drive to Wigan NW for a train to Liverpool, for one it costs over a tenner to park. They'd drive to the free parking at Maghull North or Kirkby, free parking and quick via the M58.
Wiganers mostly consider themselves Lancastrians, not Manchester (nor Liverpool) people.
Very unfortunate that this has descended into a bunch of mancophiles decrying why anyone would want faster or better wigan-Liverpool urban services.
To be clear, there is no rejection of wallgate potential opportunities here, only that a) we simply must be paid a price for it and b) that price is very unlikely to be paid by a government that shows no interest in us or our needs. I've no doubt it would be a popular extension otherwise.
To be clear, there is no rejection of wallgate potential opportunities here, only that a) we simply must be paid a price for it and b) that price is very unlikely to be paid by a government that shows no interest in us or our needs. I've no doubt it would be a popular extension otherwise.
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Your stated location of St Helens confirms that you are already in a large town area that currently enjoys a direct train service from Wigan to Liverpool.
Not sure who you mean by "we" and "us"? If it's the people of St Helens, don't worry - you won't be asked to pay anything. Indeed the entire Liverpool City Region (and indeed the whole of the UK outside of the South East) are net recipients of central government funding for all fiscal expenditure. (I've said before that this is not necessarily a "fair" way to consider revenue and expenditure as the South East isn't a separate micro-state - it's a part of the whole and works as such).
I actually live in Orrell. I believe a frequent service of Liverpool would be well used. Many people on this side of Wigan have an "affinity" if you could call it that to Liverpool that's probably greater than to Manchester.
Or a robustly timed and reliable quick change to / from a Northern service at Wallgate.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
Open the doors on both sides (if the units physically let you) and it'd be cross platform both ways too!
Xenophon PCDGS
Veteran Member
Whilst it is seemingly aspirational on an internet discussion forum that a Liverpool to Wigan via Kirkby service into Wigan Wallgate station once again recreates the former part of the Liverpool and Bury Railway, noting the cosy political relationship that exists between the Labour Mayors of Greater Manchester and Greater Scouseland, what exactly has been the last official statement made by the Department of Transport that considered the possibility of this matter and when was it made?
Lampshade
Established Member
Running through to Wigan would give the stations beyond Headbolt Lane a better service and better connections at Wigan, and allow Northern to truncate the existing Kirkby service at Wallgate.
It also makes more sense to run through to a major population centre than to terminate in the arse end of nowhere for political reasons.
It also makes more sense to run through to a major population centre than to terminate in the arse end of nowhere for political reasons.
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