Potential Metrolink cuts?

[Bletchleyite]

There's also the possible risk to revenue on light rail services, of which Andy Burnham seems to be aware. But UK governments have always seen bus, tram and train as totally separate networks existing in their own vacuum. Not a party political point as Gordon Brown also did when he announced free bus travel for over-60s.

To be fair, if they published the timetable (something they've never liked doing) a reduction on Metrolink to 4tph per route would not be disastrous. It's fine on Merseyrail. More trams could run as doubles so no capacity loss but fewer staff would be needed, and the nominal waiting time if you show up randomly is only three minutes longer. Furthermore putting 1/5 fewer trams through the city centre may make it more reliable there.

Re the new thread, I've seen a few articles on e.g. FB (don't have one to hand) that suggest Metrolink may be a bit tight financially, hence the discussion of potential reductions in service.

 

[johncrossley]

To be fair, if they published the timetable (something they've never liked doing) a reduction on Metrolink to 4tph per route would not be disastrous. It's fine on Merseyrail. More trams could run as doubles so no capacity loss but fewer staff would be needed, and the nominal waiting time if you show up randomly is only three minutes longer. Furthermore putting 1/5 fewer trams through the city centre may make it more reliable there.

The evening (and I think early Sunday morning) service used to be every 15 minutes so there's precedent for that frequency.

Re the new thread, I've seen a few articles on e.g. FB (don't have one to hand) that suggest Metrolink may be a bit tight financially, hence the discussion of potential reductions in service.

I don't see this as any different to similar predictions of possible disaster on London's transport. Eventually there will be a settlement meaning things carrying on more or less as usual, with maybe the odd token cut to save face on both sides (like with the Heathrow fare increase). They've already postponed (or cancelled?) planned service enhancements. For example, the trams which currently terminate at Victoria (or Cornbrook?) were meant to be extended to Crumpsall.

 

[WatcherZero]

I think this is just the Manchester Evening News noticing the end of Co-vid revenue support and doing a puff piece on how will the government cash be replaced?

 

[Bovverboy]

To be fair, if they published the timetable (something they've never liked doing) a reduction on Metrolink to 4tph per route would not be disastrous. It's fine on Merseyrail. More trams could run as doubles so no capacity loss but fewer staff would be needed, and the nominal waiting time if you show up randomly is only three minutes longer.

It depends what you mean by 'nominal' waiting time - the average wait would be only a minute and a half longer, seven and a half minutes compared to six.

 

[507 001]

We’re still taking on new drivers. If there were any real concerns, this would stop.

 

[Howardh]

The comments in the newspaper article suggest too many are getting a "free ride" and that's due to the lack of ticket inspectors. Wouldn't little bit on money spent on revenue staff create a much larger revenue stream? As an aside I'm glad I'm in Bolton as I can use thr train + railcard, if I were in Bury I'd find the tram too expensive.

"It’s just too expensive" - concerns over Metrolink future

Passenger numbers have fallend by around 15 million since before the pandemic

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

polpot17 MIN AGO
The reason fare dodging is not tackled is pretty simple, most of the people not paying would never pay, they would just not use the service, leaving the same payer base but with loads of added costs making the service even less profitable. If it was as simple as conductors or turnstiles it would have been done a long time ago

 

[Chester1]

To be fair, if they published the timetable (something they've never liked doing) a reduction on Metrolink to 4tph per route would not be disastrous. It's fine on Merseyrail. More trams could run as doubles so no capacity loss but fewer staff would be needed, and the nominal waiting time if you show up randomly is only three minutes longer. Furthermore putting 1/5 fewer trams through the city centre may make it more reliable there.

Re the new thread, I've seen a few articles on e.g. FB (don't have one to hand) that suggest Metrolink may be a bit tight financially, hence the discussion of potential reductions in service.

I think a switch to 4tph might be the best solution. There are significant capacity constraints for expanding the network and a slightly reduced frequency (with more doubled up units) would kill two birds with one stone.

I don't see this as any different to similar predictions of possible disaster on London's transport. Eventually there will be a settlement meaning things carrying on more or less as usual, with maybe the odd token cut to save face on both sides (like with the Heathrow fare increase). They've already postponed (or cancelled?) planned service enhancements. For example, the trams which currently terminate at Victoria (or Cornbrook?) were meant to be extended to Crumpsall.

I agree with the TfL comparison. The government and the combined authority know DfT will have to cough up and the reports are a negotiating tactic over the terms.

The comments in the newspaper article suggest too many are getting a "free ride" and that's due to the lack of ticket inspectors. Wouldn't little bit on money spent on revenue staff create a much larger revenue stream? As an aside I'm glad I'm in Bolton as I can use thr train + railcard, if I were in Bury I'd find the tram too expensive.

It will raise revenue but not necessarily enough to pay for the cost of the revenue staff. I have seen multiple situations were Metrolink passengers without tickets have simple refused to pay or leave the tram, knowing that eventually staff will give up rather than mess up timetable.

 

[LeeLivery]

The comments in the newspaper article suggest too many are getting a "free ride" and that's due to the lack of ticket inspectors. Wouldn't little bit on money spent on revenue staff create a much larger revenue stream? As an aside I'm glad I'm in Bolton as I can use thr train + railcard, if I were in Bury I'd find the tram too expensive.

"It’s just too expensive" - concerns over Metrolink future

Passenger numbers have fallend by around 15 million since before the pandemic

www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk

Lack of ticket inspectors? Virtually every journey I've ever had on Metrolink I've had my ticket checked, it's a different world to that of Southeastern down here!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Lack of ticket inspectors? Virtually every journey I've ever had on Metrolink I've had my ticket checked, it's a different world to that of Southeastern down here!

Don't think I've ever had a ticket checked on Metrolink. Certainly the absence of gatelines (hardly possible to have them to be fair!) does bring on a lot of non-paying antisocial behaviour that is absent on the almost-entirely-gated Tube and much reduced on Merseyrail where you have at least *some* stations gated.

 

[johncrossley]

Don't think I've ever had a ticket checked on Metrolink. Certainly the absence of gatelines (hardly possible to have them to be fair!) does bring on a lot of non-paying antisocial behaviour that is absent on the almost-entirely-gated Tube and much reduced on Merseyrail where you have at least *some* stations gated.

At Old Trafford and Etihad Campus they have queuing systems and check tickets before you get on the platform, but that's only on event/match days. As a general rule, I'm quite sure the system suffers from more anti-social behaviour than any other in the UK. Maybe even the whole of Europe.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

 

[Busaholic]

At Old Trafford and Etihad Campus they have queuing systems and check tickets before you get on the platform, but that's only on event/match days. As a general rule, I'm quite sure the system suffers from more anti-social behaviour than any other in the UK. Maybe even the whole of Europe.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

Don't bother applying for that Metrolink Public Relations job!

 

[slipdigby]

At Old Trafford and Etihad Campus they have queuing systems and check tickets before you get on the platform, but that's only on event/match days. As a general rule, I'm quite sure the system suffers from more anti-social behaviour than any other in the UK. Maybe even the whole of Europe.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

As someone who uses the tram semi-regularly, I wouldn't consider it that bad. I do wonder if its reputation precedes it thanks to our tabloid local rag who tend to focus on the latest Metrolink horror show when there aren't enough gangsters and celebrity island stories to go round.

Anyway, I went looking for numbers.

London Underground had a rate of 15.4 "notifiable crimes" per million pax journeys during 2019/20 - https://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-crime-and-antisocial-behaviour-bulletin-201920.pdf

At first look, Manchester Metrolink had a rate almost double this at 29.6 (111 per month/45 million pax per annum) - https://democracy.greatermanchester...eater Manchester Transport Committee.pdf?T=10. However this includes "crime, anti-social behaviour and bye laws" (e.g. people putting their feet on seats), therefore I'm not convinced these are comparable numbers. Anyone get anything better?

 

[Kite159]

At Old Trafford and Etihad Campus they have queuing systems and check tickets before you get on the platform, but that's only on event/match days. As a general rule, I'm quite sure the system suffers from more anti-social behaviour than any other in the UK. Maybe even the whole of Europe.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

At Old Trafford and Etihad Campus they have queuing systems and check tickets before you get on the platform, but that's only on event/match days. As a general rule, I'm quite sure the system suffers from more anti-social behaviour than any other in the UK. Maybe even the whole of Europe.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

Problem with that these days is the ability to use contactless to touch in & out, so said passenger won't have a ticket.

Unless those stations have readers away from the platforms for passengers to touch in on.

-----

I've seen an occasional station block with revenue protection, plus a couple times revenue boarding the tram to check tickets on the move. Which is better than the Tyne & Wear Metro/Merseyrail where the only time I've been checked is at those stations with barriers.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Merseyrail does (or did) have a revenue squad, but by and large relies on the vast majority of journeys involving a gated station, with the very low value intermediate ones probably not worth pursuing very often.

 

[Mojo]

Don't think I've ever had a ticket checked on Metrolink. Certainly the absence of gatelines (hardly possible to have them to be fair!) does bring on a lot of non-paying antisocial behaviour that is absent on the almost-entirely-gated Tube and much reduced on Merseyrail where you have at least *some* stations gated.

It isn’t impossible to have ticket gates on a Tramway. The Tramway in Istanbul has ticket gates at the stations, even those at street level in the central area, and as a low floor network it’s probably harder to maintain segregation than Manchester, where there is a larger height difference between street level and the platforms.

There are however a few key differences, with wages being lower it makes it easier to staff, and unlike in the UK the company policy is that they can challenge people. There’s also a flat fare, so no need to validate on the way out which means there’s no congestion upon exit. The T1 line at least has some very high passenger numbers and very impressive frequencies at peak times, which also makes providing all these extra staff more cost effective.

As someone used to the supposedly "scary" tube, Metrolink is quite an eye-opener, even for a Londoner who previously thought he was quite streetwise. It probably needs police to ride on every tram.

I’d agree with this. I found the network quite intimidating.

Problem with that these days is the ability to use contactless to touch in & out, so said passenger won't have a ticket.

This is probably an advantage, as rather than taking someone aside to issue a Standard fare, verify address details and complete the paperwork which can take quite some time, even if the customer is compliant, effectively the dispute is taken away from the network, with a £45 Contactless Standard fare being added for customers who have failed to touch in.

Pre-Contactless and Smartcards I occasionally saw the staff checking at stops and it was quite a labour intensive operation, with someone by the driver, a person at every door checking alighting customers, they would then board the Tram and anyone taken off (inevitably there would be at least a couple per Tram) having to be dealt with.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It isn’t impossible to have ticket gates on a Tramway. The Tramway in Istanbul has ticket gates at the stations, even those at street level in the central area, and as a low floor network it’s probably harder to maintain segregation than Manchester, where there is a larger height difference between street level and the platforms.

There are however a few key differences, with wages being lower it makes it easier to staff, and unlike in the UK the company policy is that they can challenge people. There’s also a flat fare, so no need to validate on the way out which means there’s no congestion upon exit. The T1 line at least has some very high passenger numbers and very impressive frequencies at peak times, which also makes providing all these extra staff more cost effective.

I must admit as I wrote that I did have that south American guided busway with staffed "stations" half in mind! I suppose in some countries you'd have a couple of sales booths at each end of the Picc Gardens platform, for example.

I’d agree with this. I found the network quite intimidating.

Agree, it definitely has that feel. The Tube very much doesn't and hasn't had for years, it's a highly staffed (even with ticket offices closed) and close to fully gated network. It does happen as you'd expect in a big city, but I think personally there's less ASB on it than Merseyrail - certainly I've encountered very, very little.

I very much think they need to look to the other end of the M62 for how to sort things out - take on a team of "rentathugs" and have them prosecute on a near-zero-tolerance basis for Byelaw breaches e.g. feet on seats, dogs (until the rules change), bicycles (though I'd like to see the rules change) etc. It has worked very well for Merseyrail, which while it was never really *lawless* like e.g. the NY Subway had got very rough at times in the Arriva/MTL "open station" days. Conductors would be another option, but I think it wouldn't be safe for one on their own, frequent checks from a few teams of at least 3 are probably needed.

 

[johncrossley]

I very much think they need to look to the other end of the M62 for how to sort things out - take on a team of "rentathugs" and have them prosecute on a near-zero-tolerance basis for Byelaw breaches e.g. feet on seats, dogs (until the rules change), bicycles (though I'd like to see the rules change) etc. It has worked very well for Merseyrail, which while it was never really *lawless* like e.g. the NY Subway had got very rough at times in the Arriva/MTL "open station" days. Conductors would be another option, but I think it wouldn't be safe for one on their own, frequent checks from a few teams of at least 3 are probably needed.

TfGM have TravelSafe teams and I've seen them on tram stops and trams on visits to Manchester now and again. But they don't seem as thuggish as the "rentathugs" that TOCs use, and they seem ineffective in my experience. One time there was someone playing loud music from a phone and there was a TravelSafe team on the tram so I thought I would report it discreetly. But they weren't interested. Another time I saw obvious anti-social behaviour in full view of a TravelSafe team. The Manchester area in general seems to have a particularly elevated level of disrespect for authority that you don't see as much in London or in other big cities.

 

[railfan99]

Lack of ticket inspectors? Virtually every journey I've ever had on Metrolink I've had my ticket checked, it's a different world to that of Southeastern down here!

From Australia, I travelled once a few years ago to Altrincham, then travelling by rail to London on Virgin. My ticket was checked at Old Trafford: from memory there were about five inspectors.

I thought that was pretty good. They seemed effective.

 

[geoffk]

As someone who uses the tram semi-regularly, I wouldn't consider it that bad. I do wonder if its reputation precedes it thanks to our tabloid local rag who tend to focus on the latest Metrolink horror show when there aren't enough gangsters and celebrity island stories to go round.

Anyway, I went looking for numbers.

London Underground had a rate of 15.4 "notifiable crimes" per million pax journeys during 2019/20 - https://content.tfl.gov.uk/tfl-crime-and-antisocial-behaviour-bulletin-201920.pdf

At first look, Manchester Metrolink had a rate almost double this at 29.6 (111 per month/45 million pax per annum) - https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/g4125/Public reports pack 18th-Sep-2020 10.30 Greater Manchester Transport Committee.pdf?T=10. However this includes "crime, anti-social behaviour and bye laws" (e.g. people putting their feet on seats), therefore I'm not convinced these are comparable numbers. Anyone get anything better?

Until last year I lived near Manchester and used Metrolink quite a lot, covering the whole system over the years. I hardly ever came across any incidents other than youths bringing bikes on and being told to take them off (which they did eventually). I rarely made late evening journeys though.

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfGM have TravelSafe teams and I've seen them on tram stops and trams on visits to Manchester now and again. But they don't seem as thuggish as the "rentathugs" that TOCs use, and they seem ineffective in my experience. One time there was someone playing loud music from a phone and there was a TravelSafe team on the tram so I thought I would report it discreetly. But they weren't interested. Another time I saw obvious anti-social behaviour in full view of a TravelSafe team. The Manchester area in general seems to have a particularly elevated level of disrespect for authority that you don't see as much in London or in other big cities.

I'm usually no fan of "rentathugs", but the sort of people causing the ASB on Metrolink only respond to aggression and force, unfortunately, so "rentathugs" is exactly what are needed to solve this problem. In essence a nightclub bouncer who takes no nonsense and will if necessarily physically restrain or remove people. You're not going to get rid of Piccadilly Gardens spiceheads by politely asking them to get off and buy a ticket.

The ideal would be actual Police but they're too underfunded to provide coverage.

Until last year I lived near Manchester and used Metrolink quite a lot, covering the whole system over the years. I hardly ever came across any incidents other than youths bringing bikes on and being told to take them off (which they did eventually). I rarely made late evening journeys though.

Late evenings are when it feels most unsafe, though you do get daytime ASB too.

 

[johncrossley]

A lot of my trips on Metrolink have been on Saturday and Sunday afternoon and early evening, which is probably a peak time for ASB as a lot of kids/teenagers are using it. If you mostly use it for commuting in traditional weekday peak hours then it is probably OK as you are mostly sharing the tram with white collar office workers.

 

[LeeLivery]

Don't think I've ever had a ticket checked on Metrolink. Certainly the absence of gatelines (hardly possible to have them to be fair!) does bring on a lot of non-paying antisocial behaviour that is absent on the almost-entirely-gated Tube and much reduced on Merseyrail where you have at least *some* stations gated.

Interesting how people can have very different experiences!

From Australia, I travelled once a few years ago to Altrincham, then travelling by rail to London on Virgin. My ticket was checked at Old Trafford: from memory there were about five inspectors.

I thought that was pretty good. They seemed effective.

Quite. Almost always full-on blockades, trams not going anywhere until they've done. Never seen that anywhere else.

 

[BPX]

I vouch for ticket machines on platforms, however seeing the machine at Queens Road currently has it's screen shattered, how do Metrolink protect itself from revenue losses at stops that aren't as 'popular' as the inner-city ones?