Potential up to 2,000 job losses at Alstom Derby

[Invincible]

Alstom should be given the 345 extra order without delay but with 30x379's sitting idle similar amount of 350's shortly to become available and thats before we add in the 20x720's GA say they don't need and probably C2C don't really need there 720s either there is no demand for new EMUs for sometime given none of the electrification schemes being promoted in England will generate any demand for EMUs.

Thus im afraid i can't see these jobs being saved sadly but Derby has Rolls Royce so good demand for skilled staff and im sure newton Aycliffe could build HS2 trains and thats if they even what all of them now.£

I see in the news today £1bn to fund the electrification of the North Wales Main Line. So may need new EMUs?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

I see in the news today £1bn to fund the electrification of the North Wales Main Line. So may need new EMUs?

best part of 100 AC EMUs will be available shortly with all the cast offs and over ordering from a few years back

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Perhaps Alstom can be awarded some sort of R&D project to tide them over, like a battery or hydrogen study. Then it doesn't have to go out to tender.

R&D work doesn't keep a production line going, which is where the majority of labour costs go.
Without UK orders the next best thing would be to supply components to another part of the Alstom group.

 

[greyman42]

This reminds me of the 1990s when no orders were placed due to privatisation, which led to the the closure of the former BREL site at York, which only left Derby Litchurch Lane.

 

[Dan G]

The simple reality is that there is nowhere near enough business to support every manufacturer.

Government made comical estimates of export orders that have, predictably, not materialised.

Possibly. However by the time the Northern, Chiltern, Southeastern and GWR procurements are complete it'll be time to start replacing the first Turbostars, then the first Electrostars, the Voyagers... You get the idea.

 

[Wivenswold]

Trading barriers haven't helped. It's cheaper and easier for European Countries to buy from within the EU. So our chances of having a strong export market have evaporated.
There's a lot of potential custom within the UK market, let's not forget Scot Rail are also planning a mass EMU replacement program, though the issues with the Aventra will not have improved Derby's chances of winning bids.

 

[Snow1964]

I see in the news today £1bn to fund the electrification of the North Wales Main Line. So may need new EMUs?

There are lots of 100-110mph EMUs spare, or soon to be spare

What there are not is lots of spare 125mph EMUs, so not easy to free up bi-modes from electrification to North Wales and Bristol

 

[JonathanH]

However by the time the Northern, Chiltern, Southeastern and GWR procurements are complete it'll be time to start replacing the first Turbostars, then the first Electrostars, the Voyagers...

No it won't. The Electrostars are good for 2040. There will be a gap before then at some point, either before those orders or after. Voyagers aren't ideal but they are robust. Turbostars have some years in them as well, although with both Turbostars and Voyagers there is the diesel issue.

 

[Meerkat]

Not good news for the factories - I’m assuming the HS2 train order will now be dramatically smaller, or were their figures based on phase 1 only with the rest as options?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not good news for the factories - I’m assuming the HS2 train order will now be dramatically smaller, or were their figures based on phase 1 only with the rest as options?

The initial order was for 54 8-car trains for Phase 1.
Avanti has 57 Pendolinos of slighly larger size, but with longer journey times (also 13 807s), running services expected to divert to HS2 (ie not those using bi-modes).
The new capacity sounds about right, but the HS2 trains could usefully be longer with no doubling up needed now.
There will still need to be some fast services on the classic route, and these could be 390s or new stock.

 

[Chester1]

Trading barriers haven't helped. It's cheaper and easier for European Countries to buy from within the EU. So our chances of having a strong export market have evaporated.
There's a lot of potential custom within the UK market, let's not forget Scot Rail are also planning a mass EMU replacement program, though the issues with the Aventra will not have improved Derby's chances of winning bids.

I am struggling to think of a single British train export order to Europe between the EEC becoming the EU in the early 90s and the UK leaving the EU. I think the Milan metro work at Newton Aycliffe was after the transition period. The only other orders that I am aware of were to Thailand and South Africa. The effect of brexit on British train manufacture is very much theoretical. Yes, it would be easier if we were still in the EU but why would it be different to when we were in the single market?

 

[Mikey C]

I am struggling to think of a single British train export order to Europe between the EEC becoming the EU in the early 90s and the UK leaving the EU. I think the Milan metro work at Newton Aycliffe was after the transition period. The only other orders that I am aware of were to Thailand and South Africa. The effect of brexit on British train manufacture is very much theoretical. Yes, it would be easier if we were still in the EU but why would it be different to when we were in the single market?

British trains being a completely different loading gauge is far more of an issue than Brexit. And we don't have enough light rail lines to have developed an indigenous light rail sector.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I am struggling to think of a single British train export order to Europe between the EEC becoming the EU in the early 90s and the UK leaving the EU. I think the Milan metro work at Newton Aycliffe was after the transition period. The only other orders that I am aware of were to Thailand and South Africa. The effect of brexit on British train manufacture is very much theoretical. Yes, it would be easier if we were still in the EU but why would it be different to when we were in the single market?

Strasbourg's trams were built in Derby.
It depends on your definition of British, but there are TGV-clones in Spain with GEC-Alsthom on the maker's plate.
MTU in Germany, powering many EU DMUs/bi-modes, is owned by British Rolls Royce.
Class 373 Eurostars (more TGV clones) had UK electrics.

 

[43096]

It depends on your definition of British, but there are TGV-clones in Spain with GEC-Alsthom on the maker's plate.

Which were the Alsthom part of the organisation. Absolutely not British!

 

[Invincible]

It depends on your definition of British, but there are TGV-clones in Spain with GEC-Alsthom on the maker's plate.

In the 1990s Alstom had merged with part of the British GEC, then brought German and Italian companies, so was, and still is, effectively a multinational company, but at the end of the 1990s the French had the most control of the company.

 

[Dan G]

No it won't. The Electrostars are good for 2040. There will be a gap before then at some point, either before those orders or after. Voyagers aren't ideal but they are robust. Turbostars have some years in them as well, although with both Turbostars and Voyagers there is the diesel issue.

Only if you want to run them into the ground

 

[RailWonderer]

British trains being a completely different loading gauge is far more of an issue than Brexit. And we don't have enough light rail lines to have developed an indigenous light rail sector.

Doesn't mean Derby or Newton Aycliffe can't continue building trams, light rail and monorail units for systems around the world.

 

[Dan G]

Seems that Bombardier/Alstom do have a bi-mode Aventra design that could be built in Derby

Bombardier bi-mode Aventra could feature battery power

Bombardier reveals bi-mode Aventra for UK and export markets that could also have 'last-mile' battery technology

www.railmagazine.com

 

[Snow1964]

Alstom shares have fallen by 37% today on Paris stock exchange after it issued cash flow warning last night

Has problems in US, but particularly in UK where 80 Aventra trains have been built but not paid for

Alstom cash flow warning wipes $3 billion off train maker's value

-Alstom's shares plunged by as much as 38% in Paris on Thursday after the French train maker slashed its full-year free cash flow target, raising concerns over its debt levels.... -October 05, 2023 at 06:03 am EDT - MarketScreener

www.marketscreener.com

Alstom shares plunge on cash flow warning

French maker of high-speed trains blames increase in inventory build-up and delivery delays

www.ft.com

 

[QSK19]

Seems that Bombardier/Alstom do have a bi-mode Aventra design that could be built in Derby

Bombardier bi-mode Aventra could feature battery power

Bombardier reveals bi-mode Aventra for UK and export markets that could also have 'last-mile' battery technology

www.railmagazine.com

Given that this article is from March 2018, I wonder if the timing coincided with the bid for EMR’s IC stock? I seem to remember reading somewhere that Bombardier/Alstom did put forward a bid against Stadler and Hitachi.

 

[HSTEd]

Turns out a lot of states try to maintain an indigenous train building industry, such that the export market is not as large as you might think.

And if you are importing trains you will go to one of the manufacturers with a massive economy of scale and design advantage.
UK can't justify four train factories, some will have to close long term.

Politicians keep getting them opened so they can get a nice photo op, unfortunately.

 

[Nym]

And as a multi-national organisation, you need to look at the applicable labour laws when working out where to lay off staff and close plants.
Since they UK doesn't really have any proper employment rights (or any real comeback when they're violated) of course we'll loose our plants.

 

[jon0844]

Isn't the new UK post-Brexit policy to bribe companies to stay by giving them copious amounts of money? It's no surprise that a lot of businesses are likely to threaten to leave or cut jobs, hoping to get some Government taxpayer money.

 

[hwl]

Alstom shares have fallen by 37% today on Paris stock exchange after it issued cash flow warning last night

Has problems in US, but particularly in UK where 80 Aventra trains have been built but not paid for

Alstom cash flow warning wipes $3 billion off train maker's value

-Alstom's shares plunged by as much as 38% in Paris on Thursday after the French train maker slashed its full-year free cash flow target, raising concerns over its debt levels.... -October 05, 2023 at 06:03 am EDT - MarketScreener

www.marketscreener.com

Alstom shares plunge on cash flow warning

French maker of high-speed trains blames increase in inventory build-up and delivery delays

www.ft.com

The US issues are from what was historically Alstom rather than Bombardier.
45 High speed train sets (with tilt) for Amtrak in the states that are more behind than the 701/720/730 here.

Most US passenger rolling stock is currently very problematic regarding build quality, documentation and delays for all manufacturers there.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Has problems in US, but particularly in UK where 80 Aventra trains have been built but not paid for

The class 730 (WMT) order is for 84 trains.
Presumably it's most of these that are un-accepted/not paid for.

You wouldn't want to place new orders for an untried train with a manufacturer with this recent track record, would you?
It's what did for Washwood Heath 20 years ago.

 

[stuu]

The class 730 (WMT) order is for 84 trains.
Presumably it's most of these that are un-accepted/not paid for.

You wouldn't want to place new orders for an untried train with a manufacturer with this recent track record, would you?
It's what did for Washwood Heath 20 years ago.

SWR 701s surely?

 

[Jonny]

SWR 701s surely?

With a track record like that, Alstom Derby does have problems that they need to address anyway. There is probably a large element of 'the system' involved.

 

[Chester1]

Isn't the new UK post-Brexit policy to bribe companies to stay by giving them copious amounts of money? It's no surprise that a lot of businesses are likely to threaten to leave or cut jobs, hoping to get some Government taxpayer money.

For export focused industries trying to go green. Giving grants to a huge new battery factory or for conversion of Port Talbot steel works is rather different. Derby has managed a tram and a metro export order since the 90s. The majority of the batteries produced at Bridgewater will be for high value cars for export. If Alstom agreed to tie in support to a major foreign order the government would be probably happily get out the chequebook....

The best thing we can do is pass a law like in the US where 60% of value of any publically funding rolling stock has to be domestic. That would require manufacturers to have at least an assembly site in UK to be able to win UK orders.

At the moment Derby seems most vulnerable. CAF is not making any noises about closure with Rail and Modern Railways reporting that they have lined up export work for Newport. Siemens Goole will probably be busy with tube trains until early 2030s once the treasury and TfL stop pratting about. Hitachi have an easier job finding work for a smaller factory and the politics of doing so are much easier. Hitachi can divert some work from its home factories to keep Newton Aycliffe open. I don't think that is politically viable for a french company and Derby is three times the size. It wouldn't surprise me if Alstom decide to give the HS2 Derby work to Hitachi and just design trains there. Find a nice out of town location for design staff and free up a huge development site in Derby. An expanded Widnes site would be fine for small amounts of assembly.

 

[JonathanH]

The best thing we can do is pass a law like in the US where 60% of value of any publically funding rolling stock has to be domestic. That would require manufacturers to have at least an assembly site in UK to be able to win UK orders.

Trouble is that if you apply those sort of quotas for the domestic market, it then becomes harder to have exports if other countries do the same thing.

There is a gap in orders coming up at some point in the future, whether that is in the short term, or after the next set of orders.

 

[Chester1]

Trouble is that if you apply those sort of quotas for the domestic market, it then becomes harder to have exports if other countries do the same thing.

There is a gap in orders coming up at some point in the future, whether that is in the short term, or after the next set of orders.

When we don't have any meaningful export market its a trade off that is very beneficial.

Alstom closed Washwood Heath and they will probably close Derby at some point. We can't give them a monopoly over British train orders and the next time there is a big gap they will close it. Its possible the can will be kicked down the road this time.