Preferential treatment for rail staff

[norbitonflyer]

As is often quoted by TfL when the Tories go after the nominee passes, there is no cost associated with it as they don't need to put on any extra services to cope with the demand of staff pass users.

That's not quite true. The cost is the loss of revenue from the journeys they would still have made had they not had a free pass. But, and this is the pioint that is missed by the passes' critics - only those journeys, not any journeys thatb were only made because it was free. Moreover, although the critics would claim a TfL pass valid throughout the network is notionally "worth" the price of an annual Z1-9 travelcard, it's not necessarily worth that to the person to whom it was issued if they rarely venture beyond Zone 3.

 

[TPO]

Don't forget that if the driver was not post-Q, he could only convey a driver instructor in his cab and not someone Road learning under any circumstances. My TOC doesn't allow anyone in cabs without the required pass, or unless in conjunction with their duties. No picking up random crew at all (on ECS).

Indeed, and of course Drivers "on a plan" may also be restricted from having others in the cab.

Nor is route learning always as simple as jumping on with driver id. "Route learning cab passes" are a thing on quite a few TOCs. So another operator e.g. a FOC would need to arrange a certain number of such passes with said TOC for their driver team, they are then required to issue to the route learning driver in a controlled manner and withdraw it when no longer needed. Some TOCs charge a fee for each pass, some don't.

There is a Rail Industry Standard all about cab access, and this is being fully applied more and more often.

TPO

 

[bramling]

That's not quite true. The cost is the loss of revenue from the journeys they would still have made had they not had a free pass. But, and this is the pioint that is missed by the passes' critics - only those journeys, not any journeys thatb were only made because it was free. Moreover, although the critics would claim a TfL pass valid throughout the network is notionally "worth" the price of an annual Z1-9 travelcard, it's not necessarily worth that to the person to whom it was issued if they rarely venture beyond Zone 3.

Yes and I bet there’s a lot of nominee passes that either don’t exist at all (I.e. no one to nominate), or very rarely if at all get used. It’s a non-issue. And to be honest TFL needs to be offering all the perks it can possibly find in order to attract high-quality people, especially those from outside London.

 

[Tomnick]

Don't forget that if the driver was not post-Q, he could only convey a driver instructor in his cab and not someone Road learning under any circumstances. My TOC doesn't allow anyone in cabs without the required pass, or unless in conjunction with their duties. No picking up random crew at all (on ECS).

Indeed. I really don't see the harm in them being allowed to sit in the train, though. Obviously stopping out of course to pick up or drop off traincrew is verboten (without Control's authority at least).

 

[cockneyviking]

Have you been given that as a specific instruction or do you just think that there is no insurance in place?

You better hope that you never need a pilotman or route conductor.

A phone call to the duty manager confirmed that we are not authorised to pick up other companies train crew. The fact that he wanted a lift when there was a passenger train 15 minutes later doesn't wash with me.

 

[richw]

I know several people who work in various big supermarket chains and they regularly get free food or flowers that are going to expire. Just an unofficial perk of the job.

They were never free for tax reasons. The worker always had to make a small payment, or charity donation.
They were put in the staff room next to the charity box normally. They can’t give them for free or they become a taxable benefit in kind

 

[cockneyviking]

A phone call to the duty manager confirmed that we are not authorised to pick up other companies train crew. The fact that he wanted a lift when there was a passenger train 15 minutes later doesn't wash with me.

Going to say before it gets into a big debate, its driver discretion who rides in the cab with them. I've refused managers before as they had no cab pass. Back to OP he was in the wrong.

 

[357]

Going to say before it gets into a big debate, its driver discretion who rides in the cab with them. I've refused managers before as they had no cab pass. Back to OP he was in the wrong.

I know some who refuse all managers, unless on assesment. Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If those shenanigans were going on at my toc I'd take the same attitude.

 

[Signal_Box]

I know some who refuse all managers, unless on assesment. Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If those shenanigans were going on at my toc I'd take the same attitude.

You’d like to think the manager using an expired or otherwise void cab pass would be on the sticky end of a pointy stick rather than the driver. Trying to catch crew out is pure wrong, the job is stressful enough as it is.

 

[baz962]

I know some who refuse all managers, unless on assesment. Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If those shenanigans were going on at my toc I'd take the same attitude.

That's really harsh. I accept the expired one , but I don't know every manager's name and so wouldn't know how it's spelt.

 

[skyhigh]

Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If management tried to play silly games like that here they'd soon find it backfired on them when every driver insisted on checking the spelling of their name against their Transec card or other photo ID and phoned the duty control manager to verify the pass wasn't a forgery or hadn't been withdrawn prior to the expiry date but not handed back.

 

[Egg Centric]

Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

Are you serious? Is it possible this is just a misguided "learning point" type thing by some inexperienced manager trying inadvisably to illustrate a point?

That would be bad enough of course.

But if this is being done as a serious thing then once again I am astounded by how ridiculous the staff relations on the railways are.

 

[dk1]

I know some who refuse all managers, unless on assesment. Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If those shenanigans were going on at my toc I'd take the same attitude.

They’d catch me out every time as I never check & never remember what colour means what. Thankfully though our driver managers are not that childish.

 

[357]

Are you serious? Is it possible this is just a misguided "learning point" type thing by some inexperienced manager trying inadvisably to illustrate a point?

That would be bad enough of course.

But if this is being done as a serious thing then once again I am astounded by how ridiculous the staff relations on the railways are.

Yep. I personally have known drivers marked down on assesment for not checking the date of expiry on the cab pass against today's date on the TMS or iPad!

 

[jamieP]

Eric is GBRF driver, no one is permitted on a ecs move other than those diagramed.

This railway family business is a load of rubbish hasn’t been a family for 30+ years.

Driver or trainee driver?

 

[richw]

I know some who refuse all managers, unless on assesment. Some TOC managers use cab passes that are deliberately expired or with an incorrect spelling of their name in order to try and catch drivers out.

If those shenanigans were going on at my toc I'd take the same attitude.

I couldn’t tell you the correct spelling of some of my managements names. This really is petty.

 

[dk1]

I couldn’t tell you the correct spelling of some of my managements names. This really is petty.

If anybody did that to me (which I could never imagine they would) I would just laugh at them then

 

[Signal_Box]

He’s at it again on the Facebook Class 92 group, moaning how signallers Shafted him at a junction….

Driver or trainee driver?

Fully qualified driver, not new to the industry either worked as a tech with FGW and Bombardier prior, so should know how it all works.

 

[LAX54]

How does cadging a lift on an ECS move fit in with any insurance ? as it's not a passenger move, or a booked travel move, you are on thin ice ?

 

[357]

How does cadging a lift on an ECS move fit in with any insurance ? as it's not a passenger move, or a booked travel move, you are on thin ice ?

Depends what your grade is and if you work for the company running the ECS or not.

 

[43066]

I suspect that’s partly because they will take the view mainline staff = driver. There has become quite a tidemark between train staff and station staff on LU, hence it’s probably not to be unexpected that this carries over to mainline staff as well. Sad, but there we go.

I daresay some LU staff will have encountered the odd arsey mainline guard at some point as well, however that’s probably less likely to be the reason in the vast majority of cases.

It does sound like TfL is a somewhat toxic working environment. I’ve (half) joked before on here about everyone hating drivers; it sounds like on the TfL side it’s literally true! What a pathetic state of affairs.

Given there's no formal reciprocal arrangements in place between mainline and LU, this isn't hugely surprising. There's plenty of mainline staff who won't recognise an LU staff pass, and LUL are also very hot on gate line staff allowing other staff to travel at the moment. Can't blame individuals for not risking their job when the likelihood is the same courtesy wouldn't be reciprocated.

Indeed, certainly in my gate line days at a Z1 gateway station service by 9 TOCs (three of whom do have reciprocal arrangements with TfL) most TOC staff expected to be let through, rather than asked nicely, including those eligible for the reciprocal travel passes. Big difference in how things are approached.

To be clear I never ask for nor expect any favours whatsoever from LU staff. The situations I (and colleagues) have encountered have arisen from simply presenting a valid priv residential season ticket (in my case on a smart card) during ticket acceptance, and receiving a Spanish Inquisition - even though the card clearly states what it is, and is backed up with a valid TOC ID. I realise they don’t know what it is due to insufficient training, but that is their problem, not mine, and I don’t particularly like being accused of lying, as has happened more than once (and if I’m honest has led to a couple of heated arguments).

My point regarding road learning was simply that if it's okay for them to be in the cab under those circumstances, then how is it *really* any different if they're in the saloon instead?

But it’s only okay if the driver is happy to have them there. If they aren’t, they’re entirely free to say “no@, with no requirement to give a reason or justify themselves in any way. That isn’t something anyone should take offence at - it’s just the way it goes.

Not if current events and debates continue, they won't.

Which “current events and debates” might those be?

Most passengers have more pressing concerns about the railway.

Absolutely. It’s an odd and extremely petty thing to get wound up about - a little like the preoccupation some have with staff sitting in passenger seats when travelling “on the cushions”.

 

[bramling]

It does sound like TfL is a somewhat toxic working environment. I’ve (half) joked before on here about everyone hating drivers; it sounds like on the TfL side it’s literally true! What a pathetic state of affairs.

That’s TFL all over, sadly. Station staff hate drivers, and everyone hates service control.

Okay to be fair the above is a bit of a generalisation, but this is certainly the way things have gone.

To be clear I never ask for nor expect any favours whatsoever from LU staff. The situations I (and colleagues) have encountered have arisen from simply presenting a valid priv residential season ticket (in my case on a smart card) during ticket acceptance, and receiving a Spanish Inquisition - even though the card clearly states what it is, and is backed up with a valid TOC ID. I realise they don’t know what it is due to insufficient training, but that is their problem, not mine, and I don’t particularly like being accused of lying, as has happened more than once (and if I’m honest has led to a couple of heated arguments).

Very unfortunate state of affairs. What’s particularly regrettable is TFL station staff were, up until not that long ago, generally very well trained on ticketing matters. In particular if you went to a booking office (remember those?) it was very rare indeed for staff not to know how to do something, unlike the mainline where for many years now booking offices have been something of a lottery. TFL’s “Fit For The Future Stations” programme drove a wrecking-ball through all this, both in terms of training and morale.

It’s the latter point about morale which won’t be helping your experiences, as station staff have been messed around to the point of breaking, and naturally this will in some cases lead to some level of upset towards drivers, who as a grade haven’t had to suffer such upheaval.