Preserved/Heritage Railways

[Crewe Exile]

What kind of future do they hold?. With all the media attention on COP26 I’m wondering if the perception of a ride behind a Steam engine will change - rather than a trip to enjoy a bit of history people will view such engines as fossil fuel burning pollutents and begin to avoid riding behind them?. Certainly as generations become more and more green focused will there be a market for heritage lines in say as little as 20 years time?. Aside from customer tastes changing the very real difficulties in obtaining coal/parts will provide further problems?.

 

[John Luxton]

What kind of future do they hold?. With all the media attention on COP26 I’m wondering if the perception of a ride behind a Steam engine will change - rather than a trip to enjoy a bit of history people will view such engines as fossil fuel burning pollutents and begin to avoid riding behind them?. Certainly as generations become more and more green focused will there be a market for heritage lines in say as little as 20 years time?. Aside from customer tastes changing the very real difficulties in obtaining coal/parts will provide further problems?.

Interesting point - but with the exception of the "eco-warriors" do you think the average "Joe Bloggs" is that concerned? At present the costs of the eco switch for householders are to some extent still in the future but when people have no choice but to use expensive heat pumps and buy electric cars which are still significantly more expensive and less flexible than their i/c equivalents do you think so many will be so eco enthusiastic? Much of what is being said is being driven by politicians and some of the newer alternative small "c" conservative parties see that they could recruit from those who think the costs of the the switch from fossil to renewables is being heavily promoted by certain elite / wealthy interests. I saw a video on FB earlier from Richard Tice (Reform UK) launching his bid on for the forthcoming bi-election and criticism of energy policy is one of his issues.

I think we will need to see if the like of Reform, who have certain other topical political issues on their campaign gain traction. Even if they are not successful a swing in voting towards them may well focus mainstream politicians' minds on policy and on whether come the next general election they might wish to modify energy policy.

Personally, whilst I agree we need to be kinder to the environment, I want to continue to see our steam locos giving great photogenic displays as banning them will serve no purpose when other countries such as China are just belching out significantly more emissions than our few hundred steam and heritage diesel locos are.

I think there is a lot still to play for.

In the longer term if there is a problem with the perception of steam traction perhaps some of the narrow gauge lines in Wales should be looking towards electric traction powered by Hydro stations? That was the original plan for what eventually became the Welsh Highland Railway.

John

 

[Flying Phil]

It is a very good point being made but I suspect a good comparator is horse use. They were essential for many hundreds of years and had a whole infrastructure built around them, farriers, livery stables, breeders, saddlers etc. Now they are hobbies/racehorses and for all working purposes superceeded.....but there are still many thousands of horses being used and enjoyed.....and I wonder what their climate change effect is??

 

[pdeaves]

I see heritage railways being viewed by the population as a whole rather like classic cars, traction engines, etc. Nice to have, to see in use and whilst not emission-free are sufficiently low compared to everything else that my contribution 'doesn't count'/is insignificant.

Of course, there will be those with a more hard line view, but I think in the general view, little will change. Perhaps train crew would restrain from creating obvious 'clag', but that's about it.

 

[STINT47]

Whilst steam engines put out omissions compared to all the coal being burnt in power stations arrou d the world I don't think they are a real issue.

I'm sure historic machines will be exempt from climate targets as they really are a.drop in the ocean and have educational value in being used.

 

[John Luxton]

Whilst steam engines put out omissions compared to all the coal being burnt in power stations arrou d the world I don't think they are a real issue.

I'm sure historic machines will be exempt from climate targets as they really are a.drop in the ocean and have educational value in being used.

Only problem is if there is a reduction or even ending of fossil fuel production, or individual countries ban its use we could still have problems caused by raising prices or just non availability.

 

[Titfield]

May get an exemption for steam locomotives but am not sure of the educational value of diesels particularly so called heritage diesels.

Surely it is incumbent on heritage railways to do something about these or they may find themselves forced to.

 

[John Luxton]

May get an exemption for steam locomotives but am not sure of the educational value of diesels particularly so called heritage diesels.

Surely it is incumbent on heritage railways to do something about these or they may find themselves forced to.

Diesel traction has changed enormously over the past few decades. Though a railway enthusiast once I past my driving test in 1982 my network rail travel virtually stopped. Only in the past few months have I started wandering around again. In terms of diesel traction virtually everything I recall from the 1960s through to early 80s has gone! First generation diesel locomotives and DMUs are now just as much "heritage" as say a BR standard. A few weeks ago I travelled on my first loco hauled railtour since 1990. I was amazed at just how many had turned out to photograph the class 40 on the train. Reminded me of trips down the Shrewsbury to Hereford line as a youngster in the 70s when people turned out in their droves to see the likes of King George V and Leander pass by on rail tours. Attitudes to heritage diesels have changed.

 

[Titfield]

The key difference between steam traction and diesel traction is that you can not alter the emissions of steam loco without changing its very essence whereas diesels can be retrofitted to reduce emissions without altering their character too much.

What may force the issue may be the freeholders of the land upon which some heritage railways sit. It may be very difficult for a local authority e.g. Dorset Council who own the trackbed of most of the Swanage Railway to permit operation of steam traction without some form of offset when they have made commitments to make their own operations net zero.

 

[30907]

Whilst steam engines put out omissions compared to all the coal being burnt in power stations arrou d the world I don't think they are a real issue.

I'm sure historic machines will be exempt from climate targets as they really are a.drop in the ocean and have educational value in being used.

Agreed - the worry AIUI is more that coal will become such a niche product that it is unaffordable.

What may force the issue may be the freeholders of the land upon which some heritage railways sit. It may be very difficult for a local authority e.g. Dorset Council who own the trackbed of most of the Swanage Railway to permit operation of steam traction without some form of offset when they have made commitments to make their own operations net zero.

A carbon offset would not be particularly difficult.

 

[2392]

Whilst I'm no great fan of McDonalds'. I see in their latest advertising campaign, they are making great play on their recycling and in this particular case their use of "used" cooking oil to create bio diesel. So it IMO would not be to great a problem to do some more research into using it to fire a steam engine. Which in turn is a sacrifice I'd be prepared to make in order to keep them running.......

 

[Titfield]

Whilst I'm no great fan of McDonalds'. I see in their latest advertising campaign, they are making great play on their recycling and in this particular case their use of "used" cooking oil to create bio diesel. So it IMO be to great a problem to do some more research into using it to fire a steam engine. Which in turn is a sacrifice I'd be prepared to make in order to keep them running.......

Im not sure which is more important: McDonalds or Heritage Railways.

 

[John Luxton]

The key difference between steam traction and diesel traction is that you can not alter the emissions of steam loco without changing its very essence whereas diesels can be retrofitted to reduce emissions without altering their character too much.

What may force the issue may be the freeholders of the land upon which some heritage railways sit. It may be very difficult for a local authority e.g. Dorset Council who own the trackbed of most of the Swanage Railway to permit operation of steam traction without some form of offset when they have made commitments to make their own operations net zero.

Surely the council would be better selling off the land to the heritage railway? Solves the problem and it is probably better the railway owns the land and not the council.

 

[Titfield]

Surely the council would be better selling off the land to the heritage railway? Solves the problem and it is probably better the railway owns the land and not the council.

(1) SR would never be able to afford the asking price (valuation).
(2) It is a strategic artery and DC would never give up ownership of it.
Swanage Town Council own the freehold of the Swanage Station Site and likewise would never sell it because of its strategic value.

 

[YorkshireBear]

Agreed - the worry AIUI is more that coal will become such a niche product that it is unaffordable.

This for me is the real threat

 

[Titfield]

This for me is the real threat

Which is why all the niche users of coal have to come together to (re)source a supply. I understand the HRA is working on this.

 

[341o2]

Recently, I was in discussion with a board member of the Swanage Railway, apparently the heritage railway movement are concerned about being targeted by enviromentalists and have asked Parilament to insert a clause in the proposed bill regarding phasing out the use of coal protecting heritage railway's use of it

 

[Titfield]

Recently, I was in discussion with a board member of the Swanage Railway, apparently the heritage railway movement are concerned about being targeted by enviromentalists and have asked Parilament to insert a clause in the proposed bill regarding phasing out the use of coal protecting heritage railway's use of it

That may be so but just because it is lawful to do something doesnt mean that there wont be adverse publicity / adverse customer reaction / criticism or for that matter action taken as the Insulate Britain protesters have proved recently.

It would be somewhat bizarre if the only legal use of coal was heritage railways and traction engine owners.

However as @30907 has alluded to, if the price of coal becomes £1000 a tonne will Heritage Railways be able to afford it?

As I have said earlier HRs need to come up with well thought through action plans to reduce their environmental impact. Relying on the "we are heritage railways we are special argument" may work initially it is unlikely to be a long term solution.

 

[Worf]

Eating less meat or using electric cars (or banning the use of coal on heritage railways) is not going to solve anything long term, but is just the latest way of the rich and powerful controlling and exploiting the rest of us. In my lifetime, world population has more than TREBLED. That is what is unsustainable, but nobody is prepared to tackle that "hot potato". The economy of most of the world is based on growth of demand, and I don't see that changing.

Meanwhile, politicians and their cronies are travelling to Cop26 from Gleneagles hotel in electric cars that are charged using a diesel generator!

Maybe we should be trying to divert the "activists" focus to the fact that if we only had one third of the population we would only have one third of how man affects the environment?

 

[John Luxton]

That may be so but just because it is lawful to do something doesnt mean that there wont be adverse publicity / adverse customer reaction / criticism or for that matter action taken as the Insulate Britain protesters have proved recently.

Insulate Britain and the other eco-Terror groups seem to be getting very little support from the general public for their actions. One gets the feeling "Joe Public" would take much more robust action than the police are prepared to do, evidenced by drivers dragging them off the road and one lady trying to push them out of the way with her car.

I am sure many heritage railways could muster up some burly volunteers prepared to instruct Insulate Britain and Extinction rebellion ton the error of their ways should they decide to descend on a site and cause problems.

 

[Titfield]

Insulate Britain and the other eco-Terror groups seem to be getting very little support from the general public for their actions. One gets the feeling "Joe Public" would take much more robust action than the police are prepared to do, evidenced by drivers dragging them off the road and one lady trying to push them out of the way with her car.

I am sure many heritage railways could muster up some burly volunteers prepared to instruct Insulate Britain and Extinction rebellion ton the error of their ways should they decide to descend on a site and cause problems.

Whilst there may be very little support by the General Public for the actions of Insulate Britain, nevertheless Heritage Railways should be aware that the regard that the general public have for them (heritage railways) could evaporate and therefore HRs do need to take heed of the environmental agenda.

Many heritage railways are trying to engage with a younger audience both as passengers and as prospective volunteers. Successfully engaging with that audience may be made considerably more difficult if HRs do not act on climate concerns. There are a wide range of actions which HRs could take which would not impact the core product but could be seen as being proactive in addressing climate issues.

 

[Flying Phil]

One aspect worth highlighting is the "Green corridor" of a Heritage railway - the vegetation growing alongside the line is absorbing CO2. Do we have a figure for the average per mile of track? If that is not enough, could the HRA find an area of forest growth, the equivalent of coal use, and have that as the Heritage Railway Offset paid by a, hopefully low, levy on the running HRs?

 

[Titfield]

One aspect worth highlighting is the "Green corridor" of a Heritage railway - the vegetation growing alongside the line is absorbing CO2. Do we have a figure for the average per mile of track? If that is not enough, could the HRA find an area of forest growth, the equivalent of coal use, and have that as the Heritage Railway Offset paid by a, hopefully low, levy on the running HRs?

Apparently 1000 m2 of grass absorbs 1 tonne of CO2 per annum.

IMHO HRs need to calculate the amount of CO2 and other emissions their activities produce per annum. The come up with a range of measures to reduce that figure.

The issue with Flying Phils suggestion is the green corridor is already extant and has been "active" since the year dot likewise the idea of purchasing an area of forest growth. That area is already active. What is needed is new "extraction" to counter the emissions and new means of reducing emissions.

 

[Flying Phil]

Thanks Titfield
I should have said that the HRA finds an area FOR forest growth.....but the point is that these initiatives are proactive answers to the critics rather than ignoring or denying them......I could say damping the fires down before they turn into blazing furies....but that is probably not the best analogy to use!

Edit
Wiki indicates that 1 T of coal creates approx 2.6 T of CO2. I seem to recall that Heritage railways used 30,000 T of coal pa so about 100,000 T of CO 2.... so an area of 1000 x 100,000 m2 of grass land

 

[Titfield]

Thanks Titfield
I should have said that the HRA finds an area FOR forest growth.....but the point is that these initiatives are proactive answers to the critics rather than ignoring or denying them......I could say damping the fires down before they turn into blazing furies....but that is probably not the best analogy to use!

Edit
Wiki indicates that 1 T of coal creates approx 2.6 T of CO2. I seem to recall that Heritage railways used 30,000 T of coal pa so about 100,000 T of CO 2.... so an area of 1000 x 100,000 m2 of grass land

Yes thanks Phil I should have realised that you meant FOR Forest Growth.

I am absolutely no expert in the environment etc bit what I do know is that it is far better for HRs to take action now (and have some control of the outcomes) rather than having it imposed. As you say being proactive!

 

[eldomtom2]

Whilst I'm no great fan of McDonalds'. I see in their latest advertising campaign, they are making great play on their recycling and in this particular case their use of "used" cooking oil to create bio diesel. So it IMO would not be to great a problem to do some more research into using it to fire a steam engine. Which in turn is a sacrifice I'd be prepared to make in order to keep them running.......

The more practical solution seems to be biomass fuels - various lines in the US and the Bure Valley over here have run successful trials.

 

[Gostav]

I am sure many heritage railways could muster up some burly volunteers prepared to instruct Insulate Britain and Extinction rebellion ton the error of their ways should they decide to descend on a site and cause problems.

NO, NO. Don't use this way which exactly put them in the spotlight, that is what they want. If really happen, you should fight in their way: Send a few old people to talk to them, and fell to the ground: "Environmentalists cause the old man to fall to the ground!!" "Environmentalists use *"strong"* dialogue to frighten the older volunteers!!!" Let them in the hot water of political correctness.
This is a battle. Take the lead in moral high ground and use political correctness to attack the opponent's political correctness. I know that the heritage railway should not use these dirty tricks but if those people make trouble, you can't put yourself at a disadvantage of public opinion.

* Strong? What means strong dialogue？The final interpretation right is in our hands.

 

[Cowley]

Government confirms Environment Bill will not apply to steam locomotives

Lord Faulkner, Heritage Railway Association President, has secured Government assurance that the Environment Bill will have no direct impact on heritage steam

www.railadvent.co.uk

Lord Faulkner, Heritage Railway Association President, has secured Government assurance that the Environment Bill will have no direct impact on heritage steam, and that they do not intend to change its policy towards heritage steam.

The HRA President received huge support from fellow peers back in the summer after he highlighted the risk to heritage railways without assurance from the Government that it would not be affected by the Environment Bill.

Whilst not addressing the issues around the price of coal going up, this does at least look like good news on the surface.

 

[Mike Machin]

I think there will always be an educational role for heritage railways, but I’m sure that it will become increasingly difficult to attract younger visitors in the near future, as most people under say 80 years of age are much more aware of the environmental impact of consuming fossil fuels.

The future lies in very neat, perfectly-presented preserved railways, in most cases trimmed back in length to much shorter less ambitious lengths to enable the smaller number of volunteers to maintain them to the very high standards of presentation the public will demand In the future.

On running days, most trains will need to be worked by battery electric locomotives or multiple units, converted where possible from existing stock. All of the railways will need a proper ‘museum’ where the most interesting items of stock can be preserved and displayed in a warm, dry environment with educational interpretation to explain how and why they were used in their working life. The majority of the steam locomotives will be preserved as static displays, but with each heritage line having one or two engines which can be steamed occasionally for high days and holidays.

As enthusiasts, most of us have a very distorted view of the overall importance of rail travel today for the average person today. For the majority of the population living outside of the main commuting areas, railways and train travel is just not a thing, so going forward, fewer and fewer people have any connection with railways.

People will still want to visit heritage railways, but the railways will have to work hard to make themselves into interesting destinations to people with no experience of railways. Visiting a heritage railway will be a similar experience for most people as visiting a medieval castle, a civil war reenactment or a Victorian farm museum, an interesting afternoon out for the family before setting off for home and picking up a takeaway to spend the evening watching ’Strictly’ or Netflix.

Yes, there will be a future for heritage lines, and even heritage steam, but ‘perfectly packaged’ for an easy afternoon visit.

There will of course be a few exceptions, a few lines situated in prime holiday areas will continue very much as now, but with a significant reduction in steam traction, but many of our other lines will need to repackage to offer an enhanced short-visit experience with sound environmental credentials.

 

[the sniper]

The future lies in very neat, perfectly-presented preserved railways, in most cases trimmed back in length to much shorter less ambitious lengths to enable the smaller number of volunteers to maintain them to the very high standards of presentation the public will demand In the future.

On running days, most trains will need to be worked by battery electric locomotives or multiple units, converted where possible from existing stock. All of the railways will need a proper ‘museum’ where the most interesting items of stock can be preserved and displayed in a warm, dry environment with educational interpretation to explain how and why they were used in their working life. The majority of the steam locomotives will be preserved as static displays, but with each heritage line having one or two engines which can be steamed occasionally for high days and holidays.

If that's the future of 'heritage' railways, I'm not sure they're worth keeping open.

As enthusiasts, most of us have a very distorted view of the overall importance of rail travel today for the average person today. For the majority of the population living outside of the main commuting areas, railways and train travel is just not a thing, so going forward, fewer and fewer people have any connection with railways.

People will still want to visit heritage railways, but the railways will have to work hard to make themselves into interesting destinations to people with no experience of railways. Visiting a heritage railway will be a similar experience for most people as visiting a medieval castle, a civil war reenactment or a Victorian farm museum, an interesting afternoon out for the family before setting off for home and picking up a takeaway to spend the evening watching ’Strictly’ or Netflix.

Isn't this essentially already the case...?