Preston Bus Station to be demolished

[tbtc]

And the Plymouth Civic Centre. Public wants it knocked down as it's a hideous monstrosity. Council want to rebuild it as it wasn't built very well and is falling apart. Plus the sale of the prime city centre land would pay for a lot of council services.

English Heritage then go and list it (after a lot of noise from a few architects) so the city is stuck with a badly built monolith that needs about £20m of rennovations

It's so frustrating - someone at English Heritage has decided that we need to "save" all of these "examples" of post war concrete - which just blights those cities who didn't knock theirs down quickly enough - meaning buildings remain unfit for purpose.

We should build a post-war equivalent Beamish where the Plymouth Civic Centre/ Preston Bus Station/ Sheffield's Park Hill Flats can be reconstructed (and let the rest of us live in a mode modern world).

Just wait for the preservation order on Birmingham New Street

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Under the present economic climate, can nothing be done to curb the powers of English Heritage. After all, what are they ? Are they subject to being voted out of power/existence by the electorate.

Or is it a case of "We are here to decide on such matters as we know far better than you what is good for you..and the electorate can all go hang for all we are concerned".

 

[DynamicSpirit]

Under the present economic climate, can nothing be done to curb the powers of English Heritage. After all, what are they ? Are they subject to being voted out of power/existence by the electorate.

Or is it a case of "We are here to decide on such matters as we know far better than you what is good for you..and the electorate can all go hang for all we are concerned".

Well doing a bit of online reading suggests that English Heritage don't have the power to arbitrarily list buildings. Rather, they respond to applications from the public or interested bodies to list or de-list a building, and then advise the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport, who then makes the decision. The criteria for listing are, as far as I can tell, determined partly by legislation and partly by current Government policy. That suggests to me that the appropriate target for your 'can nothing be done' question would be your MP, to put pressure on the Secretary of State. In this case that probably doesn't help you much though unless you live in Preston.

 

[snail]

That would be Mark Hendrick MP, who does not appear to have offered any opinions during this latest debate about the building. He was firmly against attempts to list it in the past.

 

[lancastrian]

As a late comer to this discussion, I will throw in my two pennyworth. I am a Proud Prestonian, although now living in Bolton. I remember the old Ribble Bus Station on that site, as well as the old Fishwick Bus station near the old Public Hall.

Between them both there were probably only 30 bus stands in total, I have never understood the need to provide 80. The access for the buses into the bus station is slightly better than in the days before it was built, although the access and exit onto Church Street, to me seems a little worse than before. To be brutally honest, it is an eyesore, in my opinion. The sooner it is got rid of and something less ugly and more practical is built in its place the better.

But, I agree with the comments that really it is in the wrong place. The centre of gravity of the City Centre has moved towards the Railway Station & University over the years. This started when the St. Georges Shopping Centre was opened, and now with the new one built beside the Railway Station, on the site of the old Butler Street Goods Depot, even more so.

The problem however is why could it be moved to, without either demolishing another part of the City Centre, and leaving what was described as a 'crater' on its current site.

An answer that comes to me (although I don't have to pay for it), is for the City Council to sell the site to a developer to build a shopping centre, under the condition that a smaller Bus Station is built beside the Guild Hall (which keeps is as close to the City Centre as possible). However, could Preston support three shopping centres, I doubt it but apart from that, I see no need for a bus station on its currant site, because it is of no practical benefit for people wishing to shop in the City Centre.

Just my views. Sits back and awaits comments, brick bats and reasons why my ideas cannot work!

 

[Lampshade]

Both subways are still open for use. As mentioned many times already, very few people use them due to their condition. As a result people chose to risk it by crossing the bus apron. Something that was made semi-permanent with the creation of the three pedestrian crossings. But even these are not great, they help you to access the bus station but you're still left with having to cross the roads with circumnavigate it.

I think there are more empty shops in the Guild Hall arcade then there are open. The old Morrisons store has been through a number of different identities but has been empty for a number of years now.

Hmm, I don't remember a Morrisons, only a Farmfoods.

There are three subways, the third next to bay #80 that goes out to where Tradex used to be (now B&M Bargains). The pedestrian crossings were obviously put in as a stopgap, and to look as ungainly and 'temporary' as possible to say "look, this is what any crossings are going to be like" to drum up support for demolition.

The subways haven't changed for years; the one to the Guild Hall Arcade used to be the taxi rank (now the drop off point). Both this one and the one to St John's Centre have been completely unchanged for at least 23 years. The bus station clocks have been stopped since at least the year 2000, there are unrepaired leaks, the concrete is reinforced with steel that is going rusty, the fixtures and fittings haven't been changed since the place was built in 1969. Basically it has been a long term goal of the Council to run down the bus station because they don't WANT to refurbish it, hence the pie in the sky figures being thrown around; British Rail tried to pull the same trick with the S&C. Run it down, let the costs escalate and... "oh, it's going to cost £X,Y,Z million to renovate, let's pull it down".

I don't have the need to go near Preston Bus Station very often, but I do remember the crossings being set-up, essentially as a safety measure.

My point about the Guild Arcade was that when the area was much busier (i.e when Morrisons or whatever came next were still open), that subway was a lot busier and people felt comfortable using it.

I was there one day before the crossings went in and a woman crossing the apron was reversed over and killed, they went in soon after.

 

[fgwrich]

Going back to Preston Bus Station for a minute - If it goes, how will we be able to parody it & Girls Aloud? Just think, that could become a sign of the past!

[youtube]72iXlXe-H74[/youtube]



(Note - as a 'former' student, i did have plenty of time to watch TV in between 'studies'. Mind you, with the college i went to you could find out more from not being in there!)

- And at least it's better than the More Bus carp, although you probably won't be saying that if your a fan of Girls Aloud!

 

[Class20]

Hmm, I don't remember a Morrisons, only a Farmfoods.

I believe it was a Morrison's right at the very beginning. It then morphed into a number of different shops before its non surprising closure. But the Guild Hall arcade is very empty now, more empty shops then open ones.

The bus station clocks have been stopped since at least the year 2000,

All four clocks around the bus station still work, just. Not sure what use to show below the main clock face, what ever it was it hasn't worked for many many years.

Also heard that the bus station is suffering from concrete cancer.

 

[Lampshade]

All four clocks around the bus station still work, just. Not sure what use to show below the main clock face, what ever it was it hasn't worked for many many years.

Ahh yes the analogue clocks work, the digital displays underneath them haven't worked for as long as I can remember, indeed the one near stands 3/4 is frozen at 6:36.

 

[robertclark125]

Yes well, it does tell the correct time, twice a day!

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of interest, does anyone know what shops used to occupy the subway between the Guild Hall and bus station? There's one rather obvious disused shop on the right as you head into the station, but I've never worked out what it was.

 

[Karl]

Out of interest, does anyone know what shops used to occupy the subway between the Guild Hall and bus station? There's one rather obvious disused shop on the right as you head into the station, but I've never worked out what it was.

I think you're referring to the original Morrison's. It was located both on the left and right as you descended to the subway from the Guild Hall Arcade. It wasn't quite in the subway though.

 

[Accura]

Out of interest, does anyone know what shops used to occupy the subway between the Guild Hall and bus station? There's one rather obvious disused shop on the right as you head into the station, but I've never worked out what it was.

As Karl said, it was once a Morrisons store up until the early 90's. It then became a Brewsters (discount variety chain) for quite a few years, and then finally, a short lived Poundland. It's been empty since that closed a few years ago.

That retail unit, along with the majority of the Guildhall Arcade has lost its purpose. The arcade is reliant on passing commuters heading to the bus station, but since the new crossings opened, footfall has been all but lost. Out of the 3 subways, only the one crossing to St Johns Centre is well used. The Guild Hall one used to be, but isn't now the street level crossings have opened. The one to the B&M Homestore (formerly Tradex and Sainsbury's) might as well be closed for all its worth.

 

[WestCoast]

Indeed, I remember when the Guild Hall Arcade was usually busy with people coming from the Bus Station and Car Park. The empty unit at the back of the Guild Hall Arcade being referred to I am sure has a set of escalators leading up to the car park bridge.

 

[Karl]

Oh yes , the escalators, or even the lifts, would elevate me into the posh walkway to the bus station.

I've still got fond memories as a 10-year-old, of walking all the way back from Deepdale after a match, buying a Lancashire Evening Post Pink Football Special edition with all the day's results. We'd queue up at the Fishwick's terminal and enjoy the cramped bus all the way home to Lostock Hall. No trouble in them days!! Mum didn't even know my brother and I had been to see PNE!!

I'll be sad to see the station go. I was 9 years old when I saw it being built

 

[WestCoast]

I think I am specifically referring to the walkway from upstairs in the Guild Hall Arcade to the Bus Station car park. There's a set of doors as you enter the corridor leading to the bridge on your right with escalators going down leading to the disused retail unit. I think when that unit was Morrisons/Brewsters the whole complex around there was used, whereas the last shops have only occupied a smaller space downstairs.

 

[PR1Berske]

This is from the local paper, updating the story:

70% want to keep bus station

... but 3/4 of people don’t want to pay for it
​

Seventy per cent of Prestonians want to keep Preston’s iconic bus station, an Evening Post study has shown.

But, nearly three-quarters said they would not be willing to accept a rise in their council tax bill to foot the £23m cost the city’s council says is needed to 
restore it.

The city’s council has agreed to press ahead with plans to demolish the bus station which it claims costs it £300,000-a-year to maintain, a figure 
accepted by more than half of Prestonians.

Today, council leader Peter Rankin said the cash injection needed to the building was the major 
stumbling block.

He said: “I would like to keep the bus station but I cannot ignore the fact that it costs a lot of money the council cannot afford. We are trying to find a 
solution we are talking with people about it to try and find a way forward.”

He confirmed Town Hall officials had met with an unnamed “local businessman” interested in 
investing in the bus station before Christmas.

Coun Rankin said: “He is somebody who is 
seriously wealthy and has told us he is serious about wanting to invest in the building.

“There is a long way to go and we have to make sure any deal on the table will bring investment.”

The leader will appear before the council’s Overview and Scrutiny committee on Friday to 
explain the decision on the bus station and the 
proposals to demolish the existing Market Hall.

Committee chairman Ken Hudson said he wanted to ensure both decisions were “in the best interests of the taxpayers of Preston.”

He said: “We all understand the problems facing both these buildings but we want to make sure the council has a plan A and is capable of bringing that to fruition.”

The online poll, which attracted more than 500 
responses, found 245 of the 548 respondents 
describe the building as a “fantastic icon” and an “architectural gem” with 140 saying it was “an ugly eyesore which needs demolishing.”

The majority - 385 votes - said they would like to see a new bus station built on the site if the 
demolition goes ahead with 61 per cent saying they would use a smaller terminal.

A further 168 people said they wanted leisure facilities on the site with 139 calling for a shopping centre and just 44 voting for new offices.

The poll also found more than a third - 36 per cent - only used the bus station monthly with 101 of the 548 respondents using it every day.

There was support for holding a referendum on the decision to demolish with 68 per cent 
supporting the idea, although the council rejected the idea of a public vote in February claiming it would cost £120,000 to stage.

John Wilson, a campaigner against the 
demolition, said the bus station and 1,100-space car park above makes the council £80,0000-a-year.

He said: “The facts are that Preston’s bus station is a public building which, in general, do not make money but this one does. It operates well as a bus station and car park and the results of this poll show the people of Preston think this as well.”

Source: Lancashire Evening Post
URL: http://www.lep.co.uk/news/business/70-want-to-keep-bus-station-1-5271710

I've said my piece here and elsewhere on my support for the bus station and repeat that support now.

 

[snail]

Wow. Almost 400 people want the bus station to stay. But few are prepared to pay for it.

Sums up my attitude well. Keep it by all means but don't ask me to pay £3 a week on my Council Tax for the privilege. There are much better things to spend the money on.

 

[PR1Berske]

The council tax increase figure is a lie. No councillor has justified or proven the claim, therefore it is not true. The fight continues

 

[Deerfold]

The council tax increase figure is a lie. No councillor has justified or proven the claim, therefore it is not true.

Erm, I can see you wanting to see some proof or justification, but lack of proof does not equal something not being true.

Have you spoken to your local councillor?

 

[Wath Yard]

Keep it by all means but don't ask me to pay £3 a week on my Council Tax for the privilege. There are much better things to spend the money on.

There are also worse things to spend it on and I'm sure Preston councillors will find a fanciful scheme that will never happen to squander a few hundred K on.

 

[PR1Berske]

Erm, I can see you wanting to see some proof or justification, but lack of proof does not equal something not being true.

Have you spoken to your local councillor?

Deleted

 

[cainebj]

There are also worse things to spend it on and I'm sure Preston councillors will find a fanciful scheme that will never happen to squander a few hundred K on.

They already do waste a few hundred K, it's called Preston Park & Ride. The bus services were originally operated commercially by Preston Bus but they were making quite large losses, nowadays Preston Bus are paid, so I'm led to believe, almost £200k per year to operate the 2 bus services. Additional council funding is also required just to keep the sites open. If it was a fully commercial scheme it would have been closed down years ago (and would have done back in 2011), but Preston City Council and Lancashire County Council continue to pump money into the underused system because it looks good for the city. In addition to Preston Bus being paid to run the bus services, they received partial funding from Lancashire County Council towards the Hybrid Versa's used on P&R 2, on top of the Green Bus Funding.
There was a comment earlier in the thread about Park & Ride buses ceasing to use the bus station as a terminus, which is quite correct operationally. What is the point in having out of city Park & Ride sites, with 12-hour opening, totalling 1,200 spaces including the very underused overspill site at Portway, having bus services serve a 1,169 space 24-hour city centre car park?
Naturally, if the council stick to the demolition, the proposed open air car park could leave a shortage of parking spaces, thus possibly making the poorly planned Park & Ride system a better option for some casual shoppers.

Just a few other little things I want to bring up, the first is how many stands the bus station actually has, it seems Preston City Council don't really know themselves! While the bus station was built with 80 stands, there's currently only approx. 60 (I don't have an exact figure at hand, but there's roughly 30 on each side now rather than 40). A few stands were removed in the 2001 "refurb" to allow full accessibility for the Optare Solo's, meaning some stands being widened to allow for the extended platform (image below), thus resulting in fewer stands. Further stands have obviously been removed from operation to cater for the crossing points. The eagle eyed amongst us will notice in the picture that there isn't a stand number 31, due to the council not bothering to re-number the stands when the refurb was completed, they kept the 1-80 numbers but there's some obvious gaps.

My 2nd point is how the council have implied that the bus station operating costs are fully paid from tax payer money (presumably to get Preston locals onto their side for demolition), this is not the case. All operators, including those on council tendered services, pay departure charges for the bus station, plus rent on office and travel shop units in the bus station. The bus station Cafe and Newsagent also pay rents for their units, to cover the operating costs. As owners of the bus station, Preston City Council should have these rents set at a level to cover the costs of the units. There's also car park income, and subsequently income from parking fines.
The council have said the annual costs are rougly £300k, so if they scrapped the underused Park & Ride vanity system, which could potentially be costing the council up to £250k per annum, this would go a long way to cover operating costs of the bus station in addition to the current bus station & car park income, with money left over.

My 3rd point is related to coach parking in Preston. The bus station is the only council coach parking facility in Preston, advertised by the council themselves as the city's coach parking and pick up/drop off facility, with a £9.60 charge for the pleasure (higher rates for coach parking over 2 hours). While functions at Guild Hall are few and far between, the loss of such facility could cause issues for coach parties attending events (no plans for a replacement coach parking facility have so far been made), especially so with the bus station being the official parking facility for guild hall functions, and could consequently result in the Guild Hall becoming an unused building with functions potentially being held at locations with suitable facilities.

I agree that something needs done with the bus station, be it refurbishment or replacement, however I personally think Preston City Council are rushing ahead too quickly with their Councillor's personal want for demolition and replacement, I'm sure if they had their way it would be demolished this time next week with Preston being left in chaos from a lack of suitable replacement facilites. A number of options for alternative facilites should have been fully considered first before deciding on demolition, the first being a replacement bus station seeing as no plans had actually been drawn up so the cost of replacement could not have been determined! Sometimes it is worth spending that little bit more in the short term to increase benefits in the long term.

Larger image

 

[Deerfold]

The figure comes from a Councillor. If a Councillor says this specific figure is the consequence of keeping the bus station open, then it's either true and can be verified, or it's not true.

Indeed. And I understand you wanting proof - as I said.

Whilst it may not be true, the fact they've not yet provided that proof does not make it not true.

 

[talltim]

Oh come on, that's down there with such classics as "If you like Europe so much, why don't you live there?"

No other city in Britain would be considering as a good idea demolishing a transport interchange, that's the main issue here.

You wouldn't get Network Rail knocking down Crewe station.

Doncaster knocked down one bus station and closed another, to build another. Admittedly neither had the architectural merit of Preston's, but they were also horrible 60s concrete.

 

[tbtc]

Doncaster knocked down one bus station and closed another, to build another. Admittedly neither had the architectural merit of Preston's, but they were also horrible 60s concrete.

True - and Doncaster now has a proper "interchange" (rather than two bus stations and a train station) - something that Preston lacks.

 

[talltim]

True - and Doncaster now has a proper "interchange" (rather than two bus stations and a train station) - something that Preston lacks.

I'm not sure I would call it a proper intermodal interchange, and its still a cave, but it is better.

 

[snail]

The council tax increase figure is a lie. No councillor has justified or proven the claim, therefore it is not true. The fight continues

I had forgotten about the magic beans that mean the council can spend £300K without it affecting Council Tax bills. I like your logic.

 

[tbtc]

I'm not sure I would call it a proper intermodal interchange, and its still a cave, but it is better.

In as much as it's a covered walk to the adjacent train station, I mean. Not as close as some places for bus/ train transfers, I accept, but a lot better than before (on three seperate sites)

 

[6Gman]

I had forgotten about the magic beans that mean the council can spend £300K without it affecting Council Tax bills. I like your logic.

£300k per annum would mean approx £7 per annum (14p per week) on a Band D property. I suspect most properties in Preston are in Bands A to C, so the figure would be lower.

£3 per week extra on the Council Tax (a figure quoted somewhere up-thread) would raise £6 million per year!