Preston Bus Station to be demolished

[Tomonthetrain]

But that's £7 per annum that could be used per household for something else

 

[6Gman]

But that's £7 per annum that could be used per household for something else

Of course! I'm not trying to argue a case for spending the money on Preston Bus Station v household spending v anything else.

What I'm pointing out is how much Council Tax is involved in spending £300k. In Preston.

 

[Roverman]

Also heard that the bus station is suffering from concrete cancer.

I sometimes wonder if thats just used as an excuse to knock something down, take the old ATV/Central building in Birmingham. Opened in 1969 and abandoned by ITV in 1997 when they moved into Central Court (which I believe they rent rather than own) and left to the mercy of the elements and Birmingham City Council. It is often claimed that its 'riddled with concrete cancer' and that its falling apart. Yet the Crowne Plaza Hotel which is physically attached to it is fine and dandy. Also I note that the Alpha Tower (built at the same time) is also in rude health. The remnants of the TV Centre are still standing as is the multi-storey car park and disused petrol station and show little signs of falling down anytime soon.

 

[PR1Berske]

The only check on the building was carried out in 1999. No concrete cancer was found. No survey has been made since.
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An update from the Lancashire Evening Post. I don't think that forum rules are being broken if I just repeat now what I've always said - I disagree with the council, and I want the bus station to remain

Published on Wednesday 9 January 2013 09:44

Preston Council’s leader has revealed that work to demolish the city’s bus station could start in 2014 - but said no timeframe has been set as yet.

Coun Peter Rankin met with the city’s Business Improvement District (BID) representatives to discuss the controversial proposals, along with director of finance Bernard Hayes, director of environment Mick Lovatt and town centre councillor Drew Gale.

He again outlined the financial plight of the council and said the decision in principle to build a new station and surface car park was probably the most difficult he had ever had to make.

The bus station costs £300,000 a year to maintain, and to carry out much-needed repairs would cost £1.4m.

According to a report, the bus station would need a further £5m of investment over the next few years, and the total cost of refurbishment could be £16m.

Coun Rankin reiterated the council was in talks with two potential investors and “prepared to talk to anyone who is willing to put money into the building”.

But he said: “By the end of the month we need to know where we’re going with this because it’s urgent.”

He said the council needed written confirmation this month from Lancashire County Council, which runs the bus service, that it was prepared to fund and build a replacement bus station.

He said County Hall chiefs had earmarked £7.5m for the work and would need to top this up to meet the expected £10-£12m cost of the project.

He said: “We have no idea on a timescale yet. It could be next year.

“But there could be a judicial review that could postpone that. I know there is an attempt to list the building and that could cause delays to put it mildly.”

Mr Lovatt said an unnamed local firm would begin work today on analysing the feasibility report, to give a second opinion on its figures.

Coun Rankin said the intention was to build the new bus station towards the north of the site, which would benefit St John’s Shopping Centre and market traders, as developing the city’s markets as a prime attraction was a key priority.

In response to questions about car park spaces, he said a car park management plan would be drawn up to look at providing additional spaces while any demolition work was carried out.

Mr Hayes said the new car park would have around 300 to 350 spaces - the average daily use of the existing 1,100 space-bus station now - and that it was “much cheaper” to run a surface car park.

He said the existing car park did not meet current standards, either in terms of its ramps, lifts or disabled access.

Mr Lovatt said a temporary bus depot could be located outside St John’s Shopping Centre.

He also said the potential for further development alongside the new bus station and car park would be considered in a city centre section of the forthcoming Local Development Framework, which is still being prepared.

Answering a question about concerns over noise pollution caused by the demolition, he said this would be minimised due to the council’s experience in carrying out this kind of work, having pulled down high-rise flats in Moor Lane.

 

[Lewisham2221]

The only check on the building was carried out in 1999. No concrete cancer was found. No survey has been made since.
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An update from the Lancashire Evening Post. I don't think that forum rules are being broken if I just repeat now what I've always said - I disagree with the council, and I want the bus station to remain

So, not only is the bus station underused, but also the associated car park. Quite significantly so, too. And yet you still refuse to see any case for replacement.

Whilst I am often cautious of believing everything spouted by local authorities, the fact that you constantly accuse the council of telling lies and providing false figures in relation to this, you appear to have yet to provide any reliable, properly referenced figures yourself to support your argument against the replacement of the bus station and car park.

 

[Roverman]

It does seem rather short sighted of them to replace an 1100 space car park with one that only has 350 spaces at a time when many stations have replaced their surface level car parks with multi storey versions, often quadrupling capacity.

Seeing as most towns have a lack of parking spaces at peak times maybe they should ask the townsfolk why they aren't parking there and what would attract them back? I don't know the actual reason but I'll wager its either expensive or so run down people don't like parking there.

 

[Lewisham2221]

It does seem rather short sighted of them to replace an 1100 space car park with one that only has 350 spaces at a time when many stations have replaced their surface level car parks with multi storey versions, often quadrupling capacity.

Seeing as most towns have a lack of parking spaces at peak times maybe they should ask the townsfolk why they aren't parking there and what would attract them back? I don't know the actual reason but I'll wager its either expensive or so run down people don't like parking there.

Perhaps they're all using the buses and trains? Whilst rail station car parking useage may be going up, the same isn't always true for local authority owned car parks. In my local area, teh council is set to miss it's target for parking revenue for the second year in a row, mainly because people are seeking cheaper alternatives.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

It may also possibly be to do with the fact that (one of?) the main points of access to the car park is by this http://goo.gl/maps/BBrg8, which is rather tight. It's not aided either by the cheap 2-hour~ parking on some of the squares behind the city centre, and by the huge dot matrix screens on main roads into the centre advertising an array of the bus station plus about 6 other car parks.

 

[Lewisham2221]

Also, as people keep suggesting that the bus station isn't in a convenient location for the town centre, would that not mean that the car park is also inconveniently situated?

 

[Accura]

Also, as people keep suggesting that the bus station isn't in a convenient location for the town centre, would that not mean that the car park is also inconveniently situated?

Correct. Like the bus services, people prefer to use car parking facilities in other parts of the city centre, or in terms of the buses, the park and ride. As has been said in the article PR1 posted, the car park is only used to a fraction of its capacity. A large portion of those are staff members with permits from the DWP and the HMRC, located in the Unicentre, Guild Centre, and Preston Office Centre.

The top two levels of the car park have been closed for several years due to the fact they are never used, thus do not warrant being maintained as such.

For the record, although I support the demolition, I am very concerned about how quickly this is being rushed, and the poor plans for a replacement. I really don't think that the money that LCC is allocating to the new bus station will be enough to deliver anything decent.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Out of interest how long is the 'several years' they have been closed for?

I've only used the car park twice that I can remember, both for concerts at the Guild Hall. Arriving about 1930 on both occasions, with about 500 at the concert, I'd say the car park was perhaps <10% full. Obviously some will be drinking, ergo won't bring their car, but still, it was eerily quiet, especially as one would presume it the main parking facilities for the event. TBF on that experience they could close all bar the entrance / exit level!

 

[Accura]

Can't remember exactly... round about 5 years. I was on the bus station car park today. I went to park at around 2pm and managed to get parked on the very first level.

 

[Nick W]

I am very disappointed although not surprised that the council is so determined to demolish Preston bus station. I would agree with many that it is a very fine example of British architecture with a very unique design, namely the combined use of the concrete walls as external décor.

English themselves have recommended the building for listing and the building is on the World Monuments Fund's list of sites at risk. The reason it wasn't listed was because then Culture secretary Ben Bradshaw rejected it. It strikes me as a most undesirable situation, and indeed neither democratic nor meritocratic, than a single person with no architectural background (in this case a German graduate)'s opinion can trump that of two world famous heritage bodies. This is the sad state of affairs in which we live.

The fact the the building is not aesthetically pleasing to some, or indeed many as it may be, is irrelevant: historical artefacts, and indeed buildings of notable historical and architectural significance, should be preserved whether or not they please the viewer so that future generations can benefit from them.

The dilapidated state is also no reason to demolish the building. Many buildings, indeed in today's world heritage sites, were in the past considered no longer for fit-for-purpose but are put to good use today. Indeed, many such buildings have outlived newer buildings built under the same master plans which if completed in full would have seen their demolition.

I hope that the structure can be saved. If not, I will certainly make a trip to Preston to see it before it is knocked down.

 

[snail]

The fact the the building is not aesthetically pleasing to some, or indeed many as it may be, is irrelevant: historical artefacts, and indeed buildings of notable historical and architectural significance, should be preserved whether or not they please the viewer so that future generations can benefit from them.

But who pays for this? If local people, through their elected representatives, decide they cannot afford to keep this type of building in a reasonable state of repair then the goverment or other body should step in. But they don't.

 

[Nick W]

But who pays for this? If local people, through their elected representatives, decide they cannot afford to keep this type of building in a reasonable state of repair then the goverment or other body should step in. But they don't.

I agree to an extent, but first I think it should be demonstrated that the legal owner cannot possibly foot the bill. Should the bus station be listed, I expect that the council would find a way to foot the bill.

 

[tbtc]

The fact the the building is not aesthetically pleasing to some, or indeed many as it may be, is irrelevant

It's a dump of a building, over half of the bus stances are unused, over half of the car parking spaces are unused, it's in a terrible state of repair, it's not fit for purpose, but along come English Heritage etc and try to force Preston to live with this eyesore.

Same goes for Park Hill in Sheffield - this concrete fetishism is going to hold a lot of towns/ cities back who built these post-war structures.

 

[Nick W]

It's a dump of a building, over half of the bus stances are unused, over half of the car parking spaces are unused, it's in a terrible state of repair, it's not fit for purpose, but along come English Heritage etc and try to force Preston to live with this eyesore.

Same goes for Park Hill in Sheffield - this concrete fetishism is going to hold a lot of towns/ cities back who built these post-war structures.

It's dilapidated and in desperate need of refurbishment. It sounds like some of the building may need to be put to better use internally. I agree that it's an eyesore, but only because of neglect.

I think Park Hill looks rather good. Don't you?

 

[Oswyntail]

...Same goes for Park Hill in Sheffield - this concrete fetishism is going to hold a lot of towns/ cities back who built these post-war structures.

...I think Park Hill looks rather good. Don't you?

Yes, chiefly because it is being refurbished and looked after. Post-war concrete can be beautiful - as I think Preston BS can - but any building that is neglected can look horrible, whether it is "Brutalist" or finest Baroque. We should have space for all tastes.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It's dilapidated and in desperate need of refurbishment. It sounds like some of the building may need to be put to better use internally. I agree that it's an eyesore, but only because of neglect.

I think Park Hill looks rather good. Don't you?

The application of pastel colourings at Park Hill to break up the usual concrete grey imagery of such edifices is to be commended. A most visual improvement.

 

[tbtc]

It's dilapidated and in desperate need of refurbishment. It sounds like some of the building may need to be put to better use internally. I agree that it's an eyesore, but only because of neglect.

I think Park Hill looks rather good. Don't you?

It looks better than it was, but the fact that the flats aren't selling (and the proposals keep getting delayed/ scaled back) suggests that we are just swapping an unfit building for a more colourful unfit building.

But we are lumbered with it because English Heritage say so, so we might as well have empty flats with pretty colours instead of empty flats with duller ones. I guess that's progress?

 

[PR1Berske]

Any refurbishment which attracts investment is better than none which doesn't.

(Though PBS is attracting economic growth without investment as each shop inside it is making a profit)

 

[Nick W]

Though the surfaces coloured refurbishment were not originally concrete but coloured brick. I suspect it looked really good for the first decade. I suspect the brick was also more appealing in close proximity due to the texture which the plain colour surface does not.

 

[corfield]

I moved to Preston 10 years ago this month in fact, and my very first impression was parking in PBS and walking into the centre having arrived hours early for the job interview that led to me moving there.

Not a good impression. Horrifically ugly concrete monstrosity. Tight car park (and I had a small car, a fiesta in fact) and a squalid downstairs with a narrow and unpleasant underground passageway to the centre full of very low end shops. I was living in East London at the time (Bow/Stratford – latter pre any renewal !) and I wouldn’t say I had high standards of urban areas, but I seriously began to consider just going home, as if this was Preston, no job was worth living there.

As it was, I continued walking and arrived at the Harris Building, the square, the Victorian Covered Market, the Post Office, the Miller Arcade and was stunned at the grandness and space of it all, and that, plus Avenham park & the river made me really want to come there. The rest of the centre being fairly average (Fishergate/Friargate) but perfectly nice.

Never, in the 8 years since that day before I returned to the South, did I by choice go nearer than looping round the adjacent road network Bus Station in order to drive into Avenham. There is nothing at that end of town and ample parking much closer to everything of interest. I don’t mind a walk, and in fact, usually parked down at the Cricketers Pub in Broadgate by the railway bridge because it was free and I had a nice walk through the superb parks, which I see in recent years have had a well deserved (if seemingly not quite completed) refurb.

I used Preston buses frequently to come into the centre for shopping/nights out, but my estimate would be some 80%+ of passengers alighting/embarking in the Friargate area (I lived in western Preston) with a bare minimum staying on as the bus turned onto the Ring road to go to the station. I think twice I had to get a bus from the station to destinations further afield, and it yet again came across as an ugly, mostly empty and utterly awful building & environs. I used to go to the guild hall (hardly attractive itself but decent inside) and would park at the other end of town and walk through as I and partner felt safer doing that rather than going into PBS.

I’ve not kept up to date with the Tithebarn plans but I assume that juggernaut of a scheme has finally crashed and burned.
Whilst logically the bus station would be adjacent or at most a very short walk from the railway station, the current monstrosity and example of the idiocy of 50s/60s planning morons can in my view have just one fate: demolition asap.

If no better location can be found, or projected to be found (RM depot perhaps? wrong side of railway station but with an over bridge and moving travelator type thing would put people at the right end of the centre?); then the best option is to replace it with something smaller, more pleasant to be in and to use (and of course, to look at), plus cheaper to run and maintain.

If the car parking is still needed (which I doubt given the evidence that it has been partially closed and my observation of the status boards indicating many spaces closer to the centre still free even on busy days), then use some of the remaining empty space for that, or sell it off and potentially something of value commercial/residential will then lift that area.
As for the indoor market, went in there a few times but that is another eyesore and internally not very pleasant either. Having recently been in Oxfords indoor market they are poles apart (and I don’t believe Oxford’s is an old/historic structure?).

You can argue for throwing money at it for “refurbishment” and complain that a lack of investment led to the state they are in, but in reality; that’s just throwing good money after bad and making a historical observation.

Further, one thing I have really noticed over the last 10 years, particularly having spent them living in Preston and working in Liverpool/Manchester and around the North West/East/Yorkshire; has been that a whole range of residential and commercial properties (public and private) have thanks to the boom, returned to being actual or with refurbishment/modification, valuable assets. When I moved there, it was common to see vacant, run down or even partially destroyed buildings even near the city centers – today, the intrinsic value of those properties (their location, ability to be modified for new uses) has due to the boom in property prices and consumer spending, seen huge swathes of property refurbished or replaced.

I think that despite the uplift in good times, there has been no discernible change at either of these Preston sites (bus station, indoor market); and that speaks volumes as to the fundamental failings of their location, their design and thus their future.

I’ll certainly raise a glass when that monstrosity bites the dust, a pity it’s not going to a better location or that it isn't part of a bigger re-development plan, but such is life, and you do what you can. Anything has to be better than the status quo.

Yep it’s a personal comment, but isn't that what the board is here for? I can speak as an interested observer, but who is independent of any benefit either way. :roll:

 

[PR1Berske]

English Heritage have officially applied, for the third time, for listed status for the bus station. I support the bid.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

English Heritage have officially applied, for the third time, for listed status for the bus station. I support the bid.

At what point in time will this application be expected to be heard ?

 

[PR1Berske]

At what point in time will this application be expected to be heard ?

That's not reported, but these things do tend to take months.

 

[Karl]

At what point in time will this application be expected to be heard ?

From the Lancashire Evening Post....

http://www.lep.co.uk/news/local/bus-station-listing-application-submitted-1-5334357

Published on Saturday 19 January 2013 11:12

An application to give Preston’s bus station listed status has been submitted.

The 20th Century Society, a body set up to protect architecture from the 1900s, has confirmed it has made an application to English Heritage to protect the building.

If the application is approved by architecture minister Ed Vaizey, it would scupper the city council’s plans to demolish it.

Society Catherine Croft said: “This new rigorously researched listing application is a fresh opportunity for the city council and other interested parties to re-assess the importance of this structure and to recognise its value as a legacy for the future of the city.”

“An imaginative refurbishment scheme could still secure the future of this architectural masterpiece.”

Two previous applications by the society to list the building have been rejected.

 

[Class20]

English Heritage have officially applied, for the third time, for listed status for the bus station. I support the bid.

You support the bid but are you prepared to foot the bill to keep it in working order should the need arise?

I think its a stupid move that should not even have been considered. As mentioned already on here, giving a building listed status just means people are stuck with buildings that are not fit for purpose and continue to fall into decay. Councils have to pump money into the upkeep of a building that is no longer needed.

We are in the 21st century yet the country is lumbered with relics of the past which no one but a small minority want anymore.

 

[tbtc]

Maybe English Heritage should be forced to make it their new Headquarters, if they are so intent on "Saving" it?

It's clearly a waste as either a bus station or car park.

 

[Nick W]

That's good news. I note that The Hon Ed Vaizey is a history graduate. I hope that this will be to the building's advantage.

Nick
(Typing from Bath, the site of a particularly famous preserved but no longer fit for purpose relic of the past.

Tempted to dive in? )