Printed publicity - still necessary in the era of digital technology?

[Bletchleyite]

There is also a very important reason why TfL should produce maps. Buses now only show ultimate destinations, with no clue as to the route they take. For example, in Orpington I can catch a 61 or R7 to take me to Chislehurst, but they take compeely different routes - indeed, in Orpington, they leave from bus stops on opposite sides of the road.

If people cannot see what route buses take, why should they ever use them? At least in a car + satnav you can get to wherever you want to go; with a bus, you don't have a hope.

The equivalent of car+satnav is public transport+Google Maps journey planner.

And if you like classic timetables, there's always bustimes.org. A brilliant site, would love to know who does it as it is quite cryptic!

 

[Ken H]

The equivalent of car+satnav is public transport+Google Maps journey planner.

And if you like classic timetables, there's always bustimes.org. A brilliant site, would love to know who does it as it is quite cryptic!

But it suggests stupid routes. Trafalgar sq it suggests bus, district/circle line but only if you scroll down does it suggest a 12 minute walk. Tourists dont realise stuff is close together without a map.

 

[Busaholic]

The problem with mapping London buses is that the network is way too complex for one to be useful to non-experts. That could of course be resolved, but the large "I want a direct bus from everywhere to everywhere" lobby would get cross.

The lobby you speak of is, I suggest, a figment of your imagination, even among the 'enthusiast' fraternity. I agree that one bus map for the whole of London is not the solution for many, especially tourists to central London. TfL stopped producing a whole-London map before they ceased the more recent area bus maps (N,S,E,W and Central) and the latter, in particular, was very popular because it could be picked up at the remaining Travel Centre locations in and near to the West End. I suspect one of the reasons it's not about to make a comeback is that, if it were to be produced, would exhibit the shocking paucity of services compared to previous times, with a dawning realisation that many journeys of longer than a mile or two can involve one, if not two or three, changes of buses, not a prospect to encourage bus travel in a city strange to you.

 

[johncrossley]

The lobby you speak of is, I suggest, a figment of your imagination, even among the 'enthusiast' fraternity. I agree that one bus map for the whole of London is not the solution for many, especially tourists to central London. TfL stopped producing a whole-London map before they ceased the more recent area bus maps (N,S,E,W and Central) and the latter, in particular, was very popular because it could be picked up at the remaining Travel Centre locations in and near to the West End. I suspect one of the reasons it's not about to make a comeback is that, if it were to be produced, would exhibit the shocking paucity of services compared to previous times, with a dawning realisation that many journeys of longer than a mile or two can involve one, if not two or three, changes of buses, not a prospect to encourage bus travel in a city strange to you.

You say that lobby doesn't exist, but in the very same post you bemoan the need for changing. The level of rationalisation is somewhat exaggerated. It is clear to see with one's own eyes that there are still vast number of buses running in central and inner London, the intensity that you won't find anywhere else in Europe outside the UK. There are still lots of sections of road with multiple routes. There has been a huge amount of pollution caused, and fuel and money wasted, by decades of overbussing.

 

[Statto]

If they're not going to do printed maps, timetables, ecc, at least publish them online, Merseytravel still do network bus maps, as do GMPTE, but can only get them online..

 

[johncrossley]

If they're not going to do printed maps, timetables, ecc, at least publish them online, Merseytravel still do network bus maps, as do GMPTE, but can only get them online..

The Greater London Bus Map

www.londonbusroutes.net

mean that TfL don't need to spend taxpayers' money duplicating already excellent sites.

TfL do have stop specific timetables, which are similar to what is shown at bus stops.

 

[route101]

Bus maps are really use, I find it quicker looking and seeking information from a printed copy rather than downloading to my phone or searching up. I find PDFs for example can be a pain to find amongst other files. Timetable books work well for areas, for example the Isle of Wight and Cumbria.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But it suggests stupid routes. Trafalgar sq it suggests bus, district/circle line but only if you scroll down does it suggest a 12 minute walk. Tourists dont realise stuff is close together without a map.

Such as, for instance, a Google map?

If you want a walking route you have to ask it for one, it has a button for that. Modes other than the one selected only show up at the bottom - it would be annoying otherwise!

Bus maps are really use, I find it quicker looking and seeking information from a printed copy rather than downloading to my phone or searching up. I find PDFs for example can be a pain to find amongst other files. Timetable books work well for areas, for example the Isle of Wight and Cumbria.

Two places with lots of tourists and, importantly, a very simple and sparse network.

In any case, London tourists mostly use the Tube, not buses. It is easy and clear how to use and the map is world famous.

 

[Deerfold]

In any case, London tourists mostly use the Tube, not buses. It is easy and clear how to use and the map is world famous.

Tourists use the tube because the map is clear and famous.

They don't use buses - how could they be persuaded to?

A clear and available map, perhaps?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tourist use the tube because the map is clear and famous.

They don't use buses - how could they be persuaded to?

A clear and available map, perhaps?

Is there any need for tourists (bar wheelchair users) to use buses? The Tube provides for them perfectly well.

The answer would be to simplify the central London network THEN do a diagrammatic map. But it won't work unless you do the first bit, and that would be to the disadvantage of other users.

One option might be to emulate German cities and have a network of "Metrobus" services on a simplified network with a decent map, but then lay "local buses for local people" on top.

 

[johncrossley]

TfL still make a simplified bus map for tourists:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/key-bus-routes-in-central-london.pdf

 

[Bletchleyite]

TfL still make a simplified bus map for tourists:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/key-bus-routes-in-central-london.pdf

That is pretty good.

 

[Ken H]

You can get pdf maps online. Its quite possible to do print on demand for stuff like this so you dont have a huge print run. People select 'print map' and its posted to them for a small fee to cover costs. Any decent fulfilment house should be able to do this.

 

[Andyh82]

TfL still make a simplified bus map for tourists:

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/bus-route-maps/key-bus-routes-in-central-london.pdf

But no longer available in printed form?

 

[carlberry]

Is there any need for tourists (bar wheelchair users) to use buses? The Tube provides for them perfectly well.

The answer would be to simplify the central London network THEN do a diagrammatic map. But it won't work unless you do the first bit, and that would be to the disadvantage of other users.

One option might be to emulate German cities and have a network of "Metrobus" services on a simplified network with a decent map, but then lay "local buses for local people" on top.

An odd way to deal with tourists! The number of sightseeing buses suggests quite a few tourists have come to see London itself and not a hole in the ground! I'm sure most tourists could cope with having a map so they can work out for themselves a way of getting from A to B whilst also seeing some of the other sights on the way.

 

[Deerfold]

Is there any need for tourists (bar wheelchair users) to use buses? The Tube provides for them perfectly well.

The answer would be to simplify the central London network THEN do a diagrammatic map. But it won't work unless you do the first bit, and that would be to the disadvantage of other users.

One option might be to emulate German cities and have a network of "Metrobus" services on a simplified network with a decent map, but then lay "local buses for local people" on top.

Why should tourists not use buses? Sometimes there's a quicker more direct bus than using the tube.

As a tourist, I often use buses (and did in London long before I worked there, being thankful of the marvellous (at the time) maps at stops).

I'm really not sure why tourists shouldn't use normal buses. I can't say I've come across that concept in the German cities I've visited.

 

[Busaholic]

Is there any need for tourists (bar wheelchair users) to use buses? The Tube provides for them perfectly well.

Who are you to speak for what tourists need? They differ individually just as the native population do. Most elderly and/or disabled people who use public transport are not wheelchair users. Escalators are a nightmare for someone like me, let alone the endless corridors to navigate, which will only get worse when the central section of Crossrail opens. Distance between stations are far greater on the London Underground compared to the Paris Metro, the latter covering every single part of that city unlike ours.

 

[johncrossley]

But no longer available in printed form?

I'd be surprised if anything other than the tube map is available in printed form. If it is printed, where would you get it from? Maybe they have it in the visitor centres, although their opening hours are limited. It isn't a complicated map so is easily browsed on a phone.

 

[Megafuss]

I'd be surprised if anything other than the tube map is available in printed form. If it is printed, where would you get it from? Maybe they have it in the visitor centres, although their opening hours are limited. It isn't a complicated map so is easily browsed on a phone.

In the racks at tube stations. They used to do that Heathrow T123 as well as assorted others

 

[Bletchleyite]

Why should tourists not use buses? Sometimes there's a quicker more direct bus than using the tube.

As a tourist, I often use buses (and did in London long before I worked there, being thankful of the marvellous (at the time) maps at stops).

I'm really not sure why tourists shouldn't use normal buses. I can't say I've come across that concept in the German cities I've visited.

I'm not saying tourists shouldn't use buses. I'm just saying they are necessarily less easy to understand than the Tube, and a network planned for simplicity for tourists isn't necessarily what the locals (the main users) want. Whereas the Tube is simple. This is true of German cities too. Hamburg for instance displays a full network map (buses included) at all U- and S-Bahn stations, but there are so many bus routes it's hard to understand them.

Actually, talking of a "network planned for simplicity for tourists", those exist - Big Bus and CitySightseeing. They aren't only for going all the way round in one go for a tour, they're also hop-on, hop-off and specifically designed to connect the places tourists want to go. They are a bit costly, but London is costly anyway. In reality, they provide the majority of the tourist bus travel need in London.

In the racks at tube stations. They used to do that Heathrow T123 as well as assorted others

That map (and it's very good) in the racks at Tube stations seems plenty. Most people will research in advance/use their smartphone anyway.

 

[Deerfold]

I'm not saying tourists shouldn't use buses. I'm just saying they are necessarily less easy to understand than the Tube, and a network planned for simplicity for tourists isn't necessarily what the locals (the main users) want. Whereas the Tube is simple. This is true of German cities too. Hamburg for instance displays a full network map (buses included) at all U- and S-Bahn stations, but there are so many bus routes it's hard to understand them.

Actually, talking of a "network planned for simplicity for tourists", those exist - Big Bus and CitySightseeing. They aren't only for going all the way round in one go for a tour, they're also hop-on, hop-off and specifically designed to connect the places tourists want to go. They are a bit costly, but London is costly anyway. In reality, they provide the majority of the tourist bus travel need in London.

You seem very sure what tourists want.

If they want a guided tour, the sightseeing buses are great. Tourist go to many places. The sightseeing buses go to some of these.

I used to visit London as a tourist and go to gigs - the sightseeing buses didn't serve many of these - and not all of them are handy for the tube.

The sightseeing buses don't operate early or late. Many tourists want to go and see a show or have dinner out.

Bigbus charge £37 for a day ticket for their network of two routes - I think you're paying more for the guide than the bus trip, there.

City Sighteeing charge £32 for a day ticket for their one route.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I used to visit London as a tourist and go to gigs - the sightseeing buses didn't serve many of these - and not all of them are handy for the tube.

If you're going to London for something specific you won't be pouring over bus maps in stations, you'll do your research. In London, because public transport is normalised (unlike other cities in the UK), the venue will be able to tell you the best bus route to connect to the Tube from their venue if you're one of the vanishingly small number of people with no Internet access at all by any means.

As for a show and a meal out, the Tube connects pretty well to theatreland.

 

[Deerfold]

As for a show and a meal out, the Tube connects pretty well to theatreland.

As do a lot of buses. Which is better for someone will depend where their hotel is.

 

[mjc]

Interesting debate, but I think that paper maps have had their day. They have a niche use which probably isn’t easily replicated by other journey planning options but that’s probably not enough to warrant their continued production.
The tube map is an institution of itself, but probably a dying thing too, it’s lack of geographical fidelity limits it’s application and you need to know the nearest tube stations to where you want to go to be able to make use of it. A journey planner will do that for you and give you time estimates as well.
A London bus map would be too busy and confused to be much use. The one reason I could see someone would want it is if they’re planning a visit, or have arrived, and not too bothered about exactly what they visit while they’re in town, so want to be able to see where they can easily get to by bus. I think that breed of tourist is probably the minority, most would visit a city for a reason and want to know how to best get to those places, which a journey planner does better.
Oh, and as for the tube being better for tourists, nonsense. I avoid it when I can and enjoy the tour of the city while we travel by bus

 

[Andyh82]

Why should tourists not use buses? Sometimes there's a quicker more direct bus than using the tube.

As a tourist, I often use buses (and did in London long before I worked there, being thankful of the marvellous (at the time) maps at stops).

I'm really not sure why tourists shouldn't use normal buses. I can't say I've come across that concept in the German cities I've visited.

Indeed, I bet there are many journeys every day where tourists want to go from A to B and end up on a journey than involves a change on the tube, but where a direct bus exists. And by the time they’ve got from street level to platform, waited for the train, waited for the second train and then got back to street level, the bus was probably just as quick, plus they would have got a little mini sightseeing tour for free as well.

Secondly, there are two different type of people - those who want to live their whole life based on apps working it out for you, and those who like to independently plan, and the lack of maps is stopping that second group from doing so.

It’s like if you are making a car journey, some will plan via a map, some will look at a map to get their bearings but still use a sat nav, some will use just a sat nav and find themselves sometimes going a funny complicated route because the sat nav/Google maps calculates it because it saves 2 minutes in a 2 hour journey

 

[Bletchleyite]

I doubt the Tube map will go anywhere, and I find the spider maps useful, but I still maintain that the whole London bus network is too complex for a full map to be useful to most people. If enthusiasts want one, the enthusiast Press can do it if there is enough demand, a bit like printing off the national timetable book.

 

[Megafuss]

I'm not saying tourists shouldn't use buses. I'm just saying they are necessarily less easy to understand than the Tube, and a network planned for simplicity for tourists isn't necessarily what the locals (the main users) want. Whereas the Tube is simple. This is true of German cities too. Hamburg for instance displays a full network map (buses included) at all U- and S-Bahn stations, but there are so many bus routes it's hard to understand them.

Actually, talking of a "network planned for simplicity for tourists", those exist - Big Bus and CitySightseeing. They aren't only for going all the way round in one go for a tour, they're also hop-on, hop-off and specifically designed to connect the places tourists want to go. They are a bit costly, but London is costly anyway. In reality, they provide the majority of the tourist bus travel need in London.



That map (and it's very good) in the racks at Tube stations seems plenty. Most people will research in advance/use their smartphone anyway.

Sorry, I meant when TfL were still doing Bus maps.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry, I meant when TfL were still doing Bus maps.

Ah, I thought you meant that rather good simplified tourist one.

 

[Deerfold]

I doubt the Tube map will go anywhere, and I find the spider maps useful, but I still maintain that the whole London bus network is too complex for a full map to be useful to most people. If enthusiasts want one, the enthusiast Press can do it if there is enough demand, a bit like printing off the national timetable book.

There's not many spider maps still being updated.

I don't think people were demanding everything be on one map - when TfL last produced them, there were 5 areas which worked well enough.

The national timetable book is largely used by enthusiasts, but individual timetables are still produced and well enough used (even if online) - why bother when you can just use a journey planner?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The national timetable book is largely used by enthusiasts, but individual timetables are still produced and well enough used (even if online) - why bother when you can just use a journey planner?

I find bustimes.org very useful. Don't see why a similar autogenerated "traintimes.org" wouldn't be useful too.