Prioritisation of the Welsh and English languages in Wales

[Krokodil]

The benefits of bilingualism apply to all languages, not just Welsh.

Who said that they didn't? I specifically used Scots Gaelic as an example. If you want to enroll your kids in Lycée Français Charles de Gaulle de Londres then they will probably benefit a lot from it.

 

[Envoy]

I can say one of the main reasons why local parents in the suburbs of Cardiff send their kids to Welsh language schools, Cardiff is generally not a Welsh speaking area of Wales. Is for a better overall education and avoid the poorer educational standards of multi ethnic schools in parts of the capital. Less about the benefits of being taught bilingually and more about being with other kids who's parents also have above average incomes.
The same thing happens in some non Welsh language schools that have very good results, e.g. Stanwell in Penarth, house prices in the catchment area are among the highest in Wales, the result being you tend to have very few kids from ethnic backgrounds as their parents are priced out. The long term result is higher house prices, result in better education, result in even higher house prices.

Spot on as I have also heard of non Welsh speaking parents sending their children to Welsh language schools - not because they want a Welsh language education - but just to avoid a comprehensive school which has a catchment from a poorer/rougher area. The wealthier people send their offspring to private schools. (The Cardiff Sixth Form College has I believe the best results in the UK and is pretty full of students from all over the world).

 

[Adsy125]

Interestingly despite having a more privileged intake, as discussed above, Welsh medium schools perform worse than English medium ones. Given this, it would seem wise for the Welsh government to focus on improving the quality of Welsh medium education before expanding it, otherwise they are doing a disservice to their kids.

Abstract

A meta-frontier approach is used to evaluate the efficiency with which inputs into the education process are converted into outputs, using data for secondary schools in Wales obtained from the 2015 PISA study. The efficiency of schools in which teaching is conducted through the medium of English is compared with that of Welsh- medium schools. On most measures, inputs into the latter are relatively high, having an impact on their observed levels of efficiency. Improving PISA scores in Wales likely requires enhancement of the performance of Welsh- medium schools, but there needs to be explicit recognition of a trade-off between such improvement and the realisation of policy goals that are broader than those evaluated in PISA.

Johnes, G., (2020) “Medium Efficiency: Comparing Inputs and Outputs by Language of Instruction in Secondary Schools in Wales”, Wales Journal of Education 22(2), 52-66. doi: https://doi.org/10.16922/wje.22.2.3

 

[Richard Scott]

Similar reasons to the English parents in Edinburgh who send their kids to Gaelic schools in Edinburgh or Glasgow. They recognise the benefits bilingualism brings their children.

Not necessarily, a lot of people send their children to Welsh Medium schools as they are better funded.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Note that Drakeford says it will “open doors for pupils, offer job opportunities” - in other words discriminate against the non Welsh speaking majority

Teaching people how to learn a language- and it doesn’t really matter which language- teaches people valuable skills to people. It’s the same reason why teaching children Latin- which has been functionally dead for over 1,000 years- is still seen as beneficial.

could someone please tell me why on earth the English 'Onboard' announcements on the new 231/756 trains are read by someone with a very pronounced North Wales Accents? If you are going to have a regional accent why not use someone with a Valleys or Cardiff accent

Because it’s cheaper to hire a voice over artist who can speak both languages than it is to hire separate Welsh and English speaking voice over artists?

It’s not a secret that Welsh is more widely spoken in the north of the country.

The world would be a friendlier place if there was only one language

Teach everyone Welsh then!

 

[Krokodil]

Welsh medium schools perform worse than English medium ones.

That's a rather dubious claim. There are clear challenges associated with assessing the attainment of bilingual students using Geraint Johnes' Medium Efficiency instruments that employ only one language, and it is not easy then to compare outcomes with those achieved by monoglots.

Welsh Medium schools as they are better funded.

Citation needed.

Because it’s cheaper to hire a voice over artist who can speak both languages than it is to hire separate Welsh and English speaking voice over artists?

If it is the same as the 197s there are separate voices for each. The system on 197s is pretty shoddy, and is notably inferior to the (pretty old now) system used for station announcements.

 

[Jantra]

Because it’s cheaper to hire a voice over artist who can speak both languages than it is to hire separate Welsh and English speaking voice over artists?

Hire a voice over artist, what century are you from??
Why not use text to voice app or an AI vocal simulation, do we really need to spend money getting someone into a recording studio these days? run trains not language courses!

 

[Krokodil]

Hire a voice over artist, what century are you from??
Why not use text to voice app or an AI vocal simulation, do we really need to spend money getting someone into a recording studio these days? run trains not language courses!

I prefer announcements to at least sound like there's a familiar human behind them, not an American robot. Text to speech systems used at some stations tend to mangle things too.

Mind you, whoever did the female voice at Crewe (among many other stations in England) should have been taught how to pronounce Llanfairfechan and all of the other stations correctly before recording them. "Lan-fare-feckan" she says. It should be "Hlan-vire-fechan" ("ch" pronounced with a roll, like "loch" in Gaelic or "buch" in Deutsch).

 

[Falcon1200]

Similar reasons to the English parents in Edinburgh who send their kids to Gaelic schools in Edinburgh or Glasgow. They recognise the benefits bilingualism brings their children.

Teaching people how to learn a language- and it doesn’t really matter which language

I fully understand, and agree with, the benefits of learning another language, but would it not be better to learn one that will actually have to be used at some point? I have lived in Scotland for over 40 years and have not had to speak, or understand, Gaelic, ever! Obviously the situation with Welsh is not quite the same, but nobody has to speak Welsh to get by nowadays, do they?

 

[Tetchytyke]

would it not be better to learn one that will actually have to be used at some point?

If Welsh schools were teaching Latin (and some do) you’d not get any of this argument, yet Latin has been functionally dead as a language for 1,000 years.

Why do we think that is?

We have a state-funded primary school here that teaches in Manx. If you think Welsh is a niche language, Manx is something else. I actually think it is important as part of the Manx national heritage and culture and it is something to be celebrated.

And even beyond that, there are plenty of nods to Manx. My kid’s school has a Manx name, not an English one. Again, I think it’s an important part of the Manx national identity.

Why not use text to voice app or an AI vocal simulation

Not many of them with an accent from Ebbw Vale! You don’t like North Wales accents on trains but you want a robot? Hmm.

Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer announcements to not sound like a robot. Text to voice stuff always sounds horrendous.

 

[GusB]

I fully understand, and agree with, the benefits of learning another language, but would it not be better to learn one that will actually have to be used at some point? I have lived in Scotland for over 40 years and have not had to speak, or understand, Gaelic, ever! Obviously the situation with Welsh is not quite the same, but nobody has to speak Welsh to get by nowadays, do they?

People should be able to go about their daily lives using their native language. Why can't you understand that?

You say that you've never had to use Gaelic. English is your first language and you live in an area that's predominantly English speaking. That's fine, but If you grew up with Gaelic as your first language and lived in an area where Gaelic was predominant but were expected to carry out official business in a foreign language, would you not feel slightly aggrieved?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I've just been to Canada on Aer Lingus via Dublin.
Despite Irish being promoted in Ireland, I didn't notice any announcements in other than English on the four IE flights or in Dublin airport, or on in-flight things like safety cards or menus.
Then in Toronto I was surprised to find announcements in French as well as English, both in the airport and on the trains (GO Transit and TTC).
All product packaging is also in both languages, unlike in Wales.

 

[Krokodil]

but would it not be better to learn one that will actually have to be used at some point?

Who says that they aren't also learning French/German/Spanish etc.?

 

[Falcon1200]

People should be able to go about their daily lives using their native language. Why can't you understand that?

Where did I say that people should not be able to use their native language?

What I experienced is that people in Scotland simply do not use Gaelic. Why can't you understand that?

Who says that they aren't also learning French/German/Spanish etc.?

Perhaps they are, but time spent learning Gaelic is less time available for other lessons, language or anything else.

 

[Lewisham2221]

I fully understand, and agree with, the benefits of learning another language, but would it not be better to learn one that will actually have to be used at some point?

At risk of massively over-generalising, I imagine that by far the vast majority of people who "learn" French (or German or Italian or Spanish or any other foreign languages) at school never have any practical need to use that language.

 

[Peter Sarf]

But there are bi-lingual road signs in Scotland.

They're just mostly confined to those areas where Gaelic usage is strongest.

I think the main difference is that Gaelic or indeed Scots were replaced by English in many areas of Scotland so long ago that they're no longer seen as the 'local' language. Whereas Welsh is more bound up with the identity of Wales as a whole.

Now I like the signs that have a clearly different colour for the two languages. So the bottom two signs. For the top two It takes so long to work out which bit is the language you want to read that the sign has been passed. I South Wales now I give up reading the signs. I fear they are no use to either language speaker so I wish they were easier to distinguish.

I can say one of the main reasons why local parents in the suburbs of Cardiff send their kids to Welsh language schools, Cardiff is generally not a Welsh speaking area of Wales. Is for a better overall education and avoid the poorer educational standards of multi ethnic schools in parts of the capital. Less about the benefits of being taught bilingually and more about being with other kids who's parents also have above average incomes.
The same thing happens in some non Welsh language schools that have very good results, e.g. Stanwell in Penarth, house prices in the catchment area are among the highest in Wales, the result being you tend to have very few kids from ethnic backgrounds as their parents are priced out. The long term result is higher house prices, result in better education, result in even higher house prices.
Back to trains, could someone please tell me why on earth the English 'Onboard' announcements on the new 231/756 trains are read by someone with a very pronounced North Wales Accents? If you are going to have a regional accent why not use someone with a Valleys or Cardiff accent? I suspect the reason is most of the communications roles in TfW are mandated to be bi-lingual and hence most of the staff are from North Wales.

Thanks for the reassurance !. DIL going through Hell and High water to buy a home in Penarth and get the Grandaughter into Stanwell. Grandaughter is already Bi-Lingual (and I agree as it develops parts of the brain left behind by not being Bi-Lingual). She is English speaking but learns Chinese and hates having to learn a third language. Sobering thought is the possibility that one day Chinese may be more dominant than English !. Welsh will be left even further behind. Then we will all know how it feels !.

 

[WelshBluebird]

Now I like the signs that have a clearly different colour for the two languages. So the bottom two signs. For the top two It takes so long to work out which bit is the language you want to read that the sign has been passed. I South Wales now I give up reading the signs. I fear they are no use to either language speaker so I wish they were easier to distinguish.

The top signs are black and green though, so they do have a clearly different colour.

For the signs in Wales, maybe this is just a being used to it thing but I really dont see how its any different to trying to find the bit of information you care about on any road sign, even in just English.

 

[Peter Sarf]

The top signs are black and green though, so they do have a clearly different colour.

For the signs in Wales, maybe this is just a being used to it thing but I really dont see how its any different to trying to find the bit of information you care about on any road sign, even in just English.

I think it can take up to twice as long to find what you might be looking for. In a number of cases (UK wide) the place you want is not on the sign (for obvious reasons, there are too many) but the driver is able to determine if a place name is on the way or in the right direction. Now people tend to scan read which means they are hunting for what is familiar. So that means if nothing wanted is identified on the whole sign it then means that a driver/navigator has to process the "possibilities".

I think the green vs black is not enough of a difference. Maybe because the contrast is not there. I think it would be clearer if there were two separate signs. With something distinguishing about them - maybe the border colour of them. That is in preference to trying to read every other line. You are right that it is probably a getting used to it thing - I do find my self looking all over it trying to work out which is English !. Arguably could mean the place names are not familiar in either language !.

 

[berneyarms]

I've just been to Canada on Aer Lingus via Dublin.
Despite Irish being promoted in Ireland, I didn't notice any announcements in other than English on the four IE flights or in Dublin airport, or on in-flight things like safety cards or menus.
Then in Toronto I was surprised to find announcements in French as well as English, both in the airport and on the trains (GO Transit and TTC).
All product packaging is also in both languages, unlike in Wales.

There certainly is an opening welcome announcement in Irish on every Aer Lingus flight and a closing one - they are both simple one/two liners.

Everything else is in English.

 

[Jantra]

I was at Birchgrove yesterday waiting patiently for a train to arrive, several had been cancelled.

The station display had an audio feed and there was automated announcements every minute or so.
Strangely about 90% were in Welsh, only the very occasional English ones.
This can't be just random or a quirk of the system.
I'm sure TfW have Welsh Language activists working who deliberately adjust the programmes.

When the new Bus station opened in Cardiff, again run by TfW they had two large screens by the enterance showing Bus Departures, one in English and one in Welsh. Except on the English display they were also showing upcoming Cardiff event screen shots (Bi-Lingual), to the point where that display only showed bus times for a few seconds every minute.
I did complain and they said they were experimenting! is this code to see what they can get away with?