• Our new ticketing site is now live! Using either this or the original site (both powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Priv to work

Status
Not open for further replies.

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,578
Really? As my company car benefit in kind is calculated based on list price, not fleet purchase price, I'm surprised that priv for TOC staff doesn't attract tax based on the value of the perk to the employee.

I know with the TfL Staff passes, that it becomes very difficult to distinguish between duty related travel. (For example if you were travelling between worksites) , using a toilet in a compulsory ticket area and using your pass to go out on the ****. Making it very difficult to tax.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

miami

Established Member
Joined
3 Oct 2015
Messages
3,236
Location
UK
That is because your employer is paying for your car and you are benefitting from that, the TOCS don't buy the staff travel facilities as they just give them gratis so ther is no benefit in kind, hence why another poster above has stated that NR staff have to pay tax on their safegaurded travel as NR has to buy the facility from RSTL.

Presumably in the same way that the Odeon gives free cinema tickets to their staff and they don't attract any tax
 

Marklund

Member
Joined
18 Nov 2010
Messages
827
Air Traffic Controllers don't get reduced rate travel on airlines - why should P-way people get reduced rate travel on the trains? neither can run without the other.

Ahh, that old line. Haven't heard that for a while. :roll:

What if some Air Traffic Controllers did, and others didn't?
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,740
If you work for a TOC there is no Benefit in Kind implication as your employer has not bought the free travel, for Safeguarded. Safeguarded staff not working for a TOC there is a Benefit in Kind Tax to pay as our employers have had to buy the travel facility from RSTL.

A crazy situation that did not exist in BR days

Not quite sure which part of your answer you consider to be a crazy situation, but in BR days we paid benefit in kind tax on our free and priv tickets.

Mind you it was a bargain as long as you used them, £10pa
 

Minilad

Established Member
Joined
26 Feb 2011
Messages
4,368
Location
Anywhere B link goes
It got quite close a few years ago through ATOC. The unions and most of the owning companies were largely inagreement, sadly one that has red and silver trains was strongly against it and won out. I expect it will be a long time before it gets back up to that level of support again.

Bet all the staff that he is supposed to love so much thank him for that
 

Llanigraham

On Moderation
Joined
23 Mar 2013
Messages
6,371
Location
Powys
Funnily enough, I get (free) up-graded to 1st Class more times on Virgin between Birmingham and London than I ever do on GWR Newport to London, and I use both quite regularly.
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
3,212
Location
Lancashire
Not quite sure which part of your answer you consider to be a crazy situation, but in BR days we paid benefit in kind tax on our free and priv tickets.

Mind you it was a bargain as long as you used them, £10pa

But the taxman had to give all BR Staff the money back when they list the case as again BR didn't pay for the facilities. I remember getting a very nice tax refund!!
 

thedbdiboy

Member
Joined
10 Sep 2011
Messages
1,053
If you work for a TOC there is no Benefit in Kind implication as your employer has not bought the free travel, for Safeguarded. Safeguarded staff not working for a TOC there is a Benefit in Kind Tax to pay as our employers have had to buy the travel facility from RSTL.

A crazy situation that did not exist in BR days

Up until the mid 1980s there was a benefit in kind tax, but then a court case (NOT BR but a local authority I believe) established that benefit in kind could only be charged at the marginal cost to the provider which in the case of BR staff travel facilities was nil.

Post privatisation TOCs still provide the facility for free so no benefit in kind, but non-TOC safeguarded staff to have to pay a charge.
 

furnessvale

Established Member
Joined
14 Jul 2015
Messages
4,740
But the taxman had to give all BR Staff the money back when they list the case as again BR didn't pay for the facilities. I remember getting a very nice tax refund!!

Sorry, 19 years since I left and even this reminder hasn't rung any bells.

Suppose I'm too late for my refund (if I didn't get it at the time). :(
 

Elecman

Established Member
Joined
31 Dec 2013
Messages
3,212
Location
Lancashire
Post privatisation TOCs still provide the facility for free so no benefit in kind, but non-TOC safeguarded staff to have to pay a charge.

And isn't that just disgraceful as it still wouldn't cost the TOCS to provide it free for the Safeguarded non TOC staff.

What happens to any retired safeguarded staff do they have to pay tax as they don't have an employe providing the benefit in kind?
 

6Gman

Established Member
Joined
1 May 2012
Messages
8,796
And isn't that just disgraceful as it still wouldn't cost the TOCS to provide it free for the Safeguarded non TOC staff.

What happens to any retired safeguarded staff do they have to pay tax as they don't have an employe providing the benefit in kind?

Well I've never had to pay any tax!

Hope they don't spot it - I'd have 20 years to pay for two of us!

:D
 

Andrew1395

Member
Joined
30 Sep 2014
Messages
625
Location
Bushey
Really? As my company car benefit in kind is calculated based on list price, not fleet purchase price, I'm surprised that priv for TOC staff doesn't attract tax based on the value of the perk to the employee.

I negotiated the tax deal with Inland Revenue in 1996. Basically we rolled forward the position from BR. Those of us who are ex BR will remember that we did pay tax on travel. But that changed when a public school challenged the benefit in kind tax rules in the mid 1980s. Basically they gave their staff free school places for their children. They said that no benefit in kind existed because the school had no extra costs for providing free places for the children of staff. They won the argument in the courts that the value of the benefit in tax terms was negligible as the school incurred no extra costs providing the benefit. At privatisation we argued that providing safeguarded staff travel did not involve any extra cost to train operators. The tax non TOC staff pay is actually the cost of administering the facility and the fees for travel levied on a semi commercial basis on non TOC employers through RSTL. The charging regime was deliberately imposed, because the civil servants thought that charges should apply. It was also thought that employers would want to avoid paying and buy the facility out, if charges applied. The civil servants did not want any industry wide benefits for staff, and if they had their way would have closed the industry pension scheme.
Apart of course for those civil servants working in OPRAF where charges were not levied!
 

35B

Established Member
Joined
19 Dec 2011
Messages
2,598
I negotiated the tax deal with Inland Revenue in 1996. Basically we rolled forward the position from BR. Those of us who are ex BR will remember that we did pay tax on travel. But that changed when a public school challenged the benefit in kind tax rules in the mid 1980s. Basically they gave their staff free school places for their children. They said that no benefit in kind existed because the school had no extra costs for providing free places for the children of staff. They won the argument in the courts that the value of the benefit in tax terms was negligible as the school incurred no extra costs providing the benefit. At privatisation we argued that providing safeguarded staff travel did not involve any extra cost to train operators. The tax non TOC staff pay is actually the cost of administering the facility and the fees for travel levied on a semi commercial basis on non TOC employers through RSTL. The charging regime was deliberately imposed, because the civil servants thought that charges should apply. It was also thought that employers would want to avoid paying and buy the facility out, if charges applied. The civil servants did not want any industry wide benefits for staff, and if they had their way would have closed the industry pension scheme.
Apart of course for those civil servants working in OPRAF where charges were not levied!
Thank you for the clarification.
 

ItchyRsole

Member
Joined
15 Mar 2011
Messages
405
Very interesting indeed. Wouldn't cost the TOCS anything now to provide free travel for staff, except being privatised it effectively shows up on someone's balance sheets.
 

giggmann

Member
Joined
7 Mar 2015
Messages
10
Thanks all. Some food for thought.

Also for the person who posted about the TFL priv rate. I saw an email today saying the terms are changing and can be used for work or leisure travel. No more oyster priv seasons apparently. I'll have a proper read of it when I go back in to work.

I'm keen to hear more about this if its happening, any news please?
 

ItchyRsole

Member
Joined
15 Mar 2011
Messages
405
I'm keen to hear more about this if its happening, any news please?

It appears, from April if you had a priv rate oyster season ticket that will cease, and you will be required to use the 75% off priv oyster PAYG for all journeys within the zones.

Talking to some colleagues, and taking into account time off, holidays, AL etc some would save a considerable bit, whereas others would pay about £80 more a year. Obviously depending on how many connections you have & zones you travel through would effect you individually.
 

CyrusWuff

Established Member
Joined
20 May 2013
Messages
4,669
Location
London
Being polite, I'd suggest that whoever's come up with that statement is mistaken, and that PRIV Travelcards on Oyster will continue to be available from NR Ticket Offices that can retail Oyster, just as they are now.

The one thing that MAY not be available on Oyster is Travelcards with validity in Zones 7, 8 and/or 9 due to the way they're handled in the NR Fares Database (i.e. with the additional validity in the "route" field) preventing the discount being applied in the correct manner to issue on Oyster.
 

Mawkie

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2016
Messages
696
Hi Mate

To reiterate what has been said already, I was stopped and reported by an overzealous RPI for using a Partner pass whilst in my uniform (for a different employer). My other half got a notification that we both had to turn up for interview.

Told them I had been at work, then I went out for a drink with the lads. They then said, "No case to answer" and we left with no further action.

I personally would have been more flexible had I been the RPI, but he was just doing his job.

Best

Mawkie


Secondly if for example, I was starting work at 12 midday and was in uniform but had to go to B to see my daughter 2-3 hours before work for a catch up. I could legally buy a priv is that correct? The rules state one cannot travel to work, I would not be travelling to work. Again, grey area.
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I think the safest thing here is simply not to travel in uniform, surely? Of course facilities vary from depot to depot, but I'd imagine most locations have lockers or somewhere appropriate to hang a uniform, and then when you travel there's far less of being questioned. The problem with giving even a satisfactory explanation of why you might have been in uniform but not heading to or from work, is that there is the potential for your own employer to become involved in matters. For example, "I'd finished and gone out for a drink" could very well land you in hot water were your employer to question what you were doing going down the pub dressed in full regalia. Most firms surely take the attitude that uniform should either be worn in full, with ties, name badges and everything else where they should be, or not at all. If you're wearing it, you're representing the firm etc etc, and you shouldn't be doing that if you're off duty, away from the job and doing whatever you choose to do in your own personal time. I'd leave it safely hung up!
 
Last edited:

Mawkie

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2016
Messages
696
I think the safest thing here is simply not to travel in uniform, surely? Of course facilities vary from depot to depot, but I'd imagine most locations have lockers or somewhere appropriate to hang a uniform, and then when you travel there's far less of being questioned. The problem with giving even a satisfactory explanation of why you might have been in uniform but not heading to or from work, is that there is the potential for your own employer to become involved in matters. For example, "I'd finished and gone out for a drink" could very well land you in hot water were your employer to question what you were doing going down the pub dressed in full regalia. Most firms surely take the attitude that uniform should either be worn in full, with ties, name badges and everything else where they should be, or not at all. If you're wearing it, you're representing the firm etc etc, and you shouldn't be doing that if you're off duty, away from the job and doing whatever you choose to do in your own personal time. I'd leave it safely hung up!

I would respectfully suggest the safest thing to do is for TOCs to follow the rules rather than dictating what I can, or cannot wear, whilst travelling (quite legitimately) on a train. Thankfully for the TOC in my example, they chose not to open that can of worms.

If it is impossible to determine whether a rule has been broken or not, then the rule should be revised.

Mawkie
 

BestWestern

Established Member
Joined
6 Feb 2011
Messages
6,736
I would respectfully suggest the safest thing to do is for TOCs to follow the rules rather than dictating what I can, or cannot wear, whilst travelling (quite legitimately) on a train. Thankfully for the TOC in my example, they chose not to open that can of worms.

If it is impossible to determine whether a rule has been broken or not, then the rule should be revised.

Mawkie

I would suggest, though, that most TOCs (and very probably all of them) have within their uniform policy a condition that uniform should be worn only when on duty or when travelling to/from work either side of that. It isn't intended as general clothing, and as such it isn't unreasonable to take the view that somebody dressed in uniform and travelling is on their way to or from work?!
 

Mawkie

Member
Joined
17 Feb 2016
Messages
696
I would suggest, though, that most TOCs (and very probably all of them) have within their uniform policy a condition that uniform should be worn only when on duty or when travelling to/from work either side of that. It isn't intended as general clothing, and as such it isn't unreasonable to take the view that somebody dressed in uniform and travelling is on their way to or from work?!

You are probably correct about that, however, I wasn't wearing a uniform of any TOC at all - I was wearing a uniform from a different industry altogether. Like I said, I could be wearing a clown outfit and be on a PRIV - the RPI's job is to investigate and apply the rules. If my journey is legal, it's legal - whatever I'm wearing.

My advice to the OP is to go and see your daughter before work (or after work) and tell revenue to poke it when they ask - they have no real way of determining if you are travelling legitimately or not, and as such, the rule is silly.
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,017
My advice to the OP is to go and see your daughter before work (or after work) and tell revenue to poke it when they ask - they have no real way of determining if you are travelling legitimately or not, and as such, the rule is silly.
I think that is rather poor advice, as revenue staff will, quite rightly, take a dim view of rail staff reacting in that way. Such an action could lead to confiscation of the travel document and potential disciplinary action. Most of the disciplinary cases involving travel irregularities that I have come across have resulted from the attitude of the staff at least as much as the detail of the offence.
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,713
I think that is rather poor advice, as revenue staff will, quite rightly, take a dim view of rail staff reacting in that way. Such an action could lead to confiscation of the travel document and potential disciplinary action. Most of the disciplinary cases involving travel irregularities that I have come across have resulted from the attitude of the staff at least as much as the detail of the offence.

I think it too is poor advice. I also agree that the outcome of irregularities (whether reported or not) does depend very much on the attitude taken at the time.

I find that the attitude of many staff - and especially their dependants and spouses - absolutely stinks, to be honest. Free or reduced rate travel is, in many cases, a privilege, not a right, and should be treated accordingly and used correctly. I am constantly upsetting staff, dependants and spouses for dealing with them in full accordance with the rules when they just plonk themselves on my train, without asking first, and expect and assume they will automatically get something (normally a free ride without buying a ticket or dating a box) they are not entitled to. Whilst this is not exactly the same as the situation the OP has - it isn't too far removed. I use my facilities in accordance with the rules and expect others to do the same. I always extend courtesy to active staff (only) if they ask first, but when they - or anyone else - does not, that really riles me.


You are probably correct about that, however, I wasn't wearing a uniform of any TOC at all - I was wearing a uniform from a different industry altogether. Like I said, I could be wearing a clown outfit and be on a PRIV - the RPI's job is to investigate and apply the rules. If my journey is legal, it's legal - whatever I'm wearing.

My advice to the OP is to go and see your daughter before work (or after work) and tell revenue to poke it when they ask - they have no real way of determining if you are travelling legitimately or not, and as such, the rule is silly.

I find this latter point also somewhat incorrect. You are correct, at the time of travel they may not have any real way of determining the exact reason for your journey. However, it is not always the case that the rule is ignored.

I can think of a case around 6 or 7 years ago where a spouse of a staff member, who was only entitled to reduced rate leisure travel, was regularly on the same or similar timed train going in one direction, and always the same or similar timed trains on the way back. Always in work attire. And always using Priv rate tickets. After some time this became suspicious, and the person was stopped and interviewed under caution by an RPO. They denied they were using the Priv tickets for work purposes, but made an excuse that they were always doing something that wasn't related to residential travel. When the trend continued covert observations were set up using plain clothes RPOs. It was eventually determined that the passenger was telling porkies, and under a further interview they were found to be using Priv travel tickets for residential purposes, and were dealt with accordingly.


My belief is that the facilities afforded to you should be used in the way they were intended.
 

matt_world2004

Established Member
Joined
5 Nov 2014
Messages
4,578
Hi Mate

To reiterate what has been said already, I was stopped and reported by an overzealous RPI for using a Partner pass whilst in my uniform (for a different employer). My other half got a notification that we both had to turn up for interview.

Told them I had been at work, then I went out for a drink with the lads. They then said, "No case to answer" and we left with no further action.

I personally would have been more flexible had I been the RPI, but he was just doing his job.

Best

Mawkie


Secondly if for example, I was starting work at 12 midday and was in uniform but had to go to B to see my daughter 2-3 hours before work for a catch up. I could legally buy a priv is that correct? The rules state one cannot travel to work, I would not be travelling to work. Again, grey area.

Isnt a partner pass for your nominee though?
 

Haywain

Veteran Member
Joined
3 Feb 2013
Messages
20,017
And it wasn't entirely clear at the outset but the OP was apprently not wearing a rail industry uniform.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top